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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.08.24 08:19:00 -
[1]
It's been said before.
120k LP can get you 8x +3 implants that will instasell for 400 million.
What do you get for 200k LP?
1) A navy megathron. Just pay 1.3 billion as an ISK sink. Thats for a ship that will sell for less than that at auction.
2) A navy issue vexor for 1 billion
3) 4x +5% to shield boosting hardwirings. For this you only need a bunch of obscure trade goods. That's for implants that are worth.....nothing.
So...
Offers in the database in no way reflect current market prices. We are using the assumption more LP is better arent we?
If I were in charge of the offers table I would be pretty embarassed at the sheer stupidty of some of the crap it throws out.
Please don't construe this as a rant. It's a blunt but honest and unbiased observation
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Xerxes Ceasar
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Posted - 2005.08.24 08:27:00 -
[2]
I agree. 160K Lp for a couple of hardwirings isnt appealing. They should throw in more offers at high LP levels.
Xerxes
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mrg29
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Posted - 2005.08.24 09:49:00 -
[3]
Agree 100%.
Agent offers need a complete overhaul.
There is a lack of variety in the system.
There are several inconsistencies between links to assumed market value and a notional npc value.
The repetitive nature of certain offers once u get to a higher level of lps is frustrating.
There is no way to ensure that gameplay changes which result in a fluctuation in market values get reflected in the value of offers.
There have been numerous threads on this issue already and the lack of ANY responses from a GM on the subject is unbelievable. When a post is started where an element of the game is challenged due to a lack of understanding or lack of actual evidence then GMs regularly comment to correct or justify the position. I assume that the lack of a response on this issue is due to the fact that they know it broken but dont want to admit to it.
At the last patch a number of negative, but needed, changes were made to mission running. The current state of the agent offer system however is just a step too far.
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Rodge
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Posted - 2005.08.24 10:41:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Deja Thoris
Please don't construe this as a rant. It's a blunt but honest and unbiased observation
I'm guessing that it is quite biased, I'm assuming that these are offers you've been getting and are unhappy with?
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Offers in the database in no way reflect current market prices. We are using the assumption more LP is better arent we?
In a way, yes.
The further up the LP ladder you go, the rarer the items you get.
But rare does not necessarily mean "worth more".
I don't see what the issue is.
The GMs don't decide how much an implant is worth, players do.
A +3 implant has no inherent ingame value. You cannot buy/sell it with NPCs, so it is outside the NPC price structure. It has no value beyond it's refine amount. The GMs have allowed the players to completely determine the value of a +3 implant.
8 +3 implants are not meant to be worth 400m. The drop rates of implants were purposely increased, so that they were available for less LPs and then the prices should have been correspondingly lower. This has happened to a certain degree, but people end up passing on the 120k LP offer to get something worth more.
More people take the 120k LP offer = more implants on offer = cheaper implants for all.
In this case, the rewards will be back on track.
I believe that Zrakor said a while back that 1LP is worth around 1000 isk.
Now, assuming that the devs want to push implant prices down (at least for +3, as this makes pvp less of a risk and more people are willing to risk going into low sec/0.0), they seed an 8 implant offer at 120k. This would make each implant worth around 15m (which incidentally is the kind of prices that mem/int implants used to go for, perc/will used to be 4-5m each!). So the formula works fine there.
And 1.3b for the 200k Navy Megathron offer is fine IMHO.
It wasn't so long ago that these things changed hands at 2b+, you wouldn't be complaining if you were making a 700m profit on it, would you?
I'd say that a faction BS is "worth" 1.5b, so you pay 1.3b and get something worth 1.5b. Formula (1LP = 1000 isk) works again
Don't want to pay 1.3b for it? Just work up to the 400k (or is it 500k) offer where you hand over the tags which you can go and get for free (if you know where to look).
It's not the GM's fault that the players decided that Empire faction BSs aren't worth more than the 1.3b it costs you to get one.
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.08.24 11:21:00 -
[5]
It's a well put together counter Rodge. Problem is, you completely ignore the points you dont refute.
The +5 implants are worthless. Are the dev's just making an exception to the 1 LP= 1000 ISK rule?
The broad point, (and its based on a lot of offers over a period of time from a number of people) is that despite "looking" into it, there are still a lot of embarassingly poor offers out there.
One guy was offered a t2 frig ""BPC"" in return for his LP and the other t2 frig of that race + goods.
I mean, wtf?
Sure, theres bad offers out there to keep people on their toes but I reckon theres more bad then good.
I'd love to see the accept / reject ratio.
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0ren Ishii
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Posted - 2005.08.24 11:30:00 -
[6]
Problems is,that the faction battleships aren't that rare anymore.If I want to fly A faction BS,I would pick the Machariel,as its cheap and with exellent stats.Not the Navy Mega/Tempest/Apoc as I will be able to buy at least two Machariels at that price...But not the Raven,I'm Gun turret lover ;P
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Vexed
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Posted - 2005.08.24 11:32:00 -
[7]
I did read that their is talk of being able to choose what you spend your LP's on but whether that is rubbish or not is yet to be seen.
I must agree that some of the offers seem totally out of place and that BPC one you speak of is hysterical. Give him a ready built AF for a BPC of another one.
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Rodge
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Posted - 2005.08.24 11:35:00 -
[8]
I believe I covered every point that was in your post. Points 2 (vexor) and 3 (shield things) came under my "But rare does not necessarily mean "worth more". "
A +5 is a lot better than a +3 to a player. I'm not sure offhand what they go for (is it 400k LPs, or 500k?), but this gives the impression that they're intended to be worth 400m or 500m (depending on how many LPs they cost). As I stated before, an implant has no actual ingame worth, it's players that decide how much it's worth. If players are willing to pay 1b+ for one, then that's what it's worth at that point in time.
Much as a Navy Megathron isn't worth anymore than an ordinary megathron (assuming the refine value is similar, I honestly haven't checked).
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.08.24 14:09:00 -
[9]
Edited by: The Wizz117 on 24/08/2005 14:09:22
missions totaly *****, and they nerfed the raven, wich was the best mission running corp.
just train for apoc and go mine.
prob they going to nerf that next week so better do it fast.
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Kaasta Karrde
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:25:00 -
[10]
I assume you haven't got many skillpoints? I only have 6.7M and my Raven is perfectly fine. Christ, I only have 700k in missiles and managed Guristas Extravaganza quite easily the other night. So whats the problem?
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Alejandro Zapata
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Posted - 2005.08.24 15:59:00 -
[11]
Offers are borked, but I will give CCP some credit in that I don't see how it would be plausible to constantly alter offers based on the trends of a player driven market when it comes to implants.
Having said that, it in no way excuses retarded offers like an 8 run BPC for an Augoror Navy Issue, for 2.4B isk and 400k LPs or the above mentioned Faction BS Battleship offers. Dump these offers and bring back the pure LP + items offers for Faction ships.
And, WHY on earth does every mission thread have to have some whiner about the Raven. Really, I have to listen to it enough in corp chat from corp mates that have 1/4 to 1/8th the SPs I have that were doing Lvl 4 missions before Patch. Even they are coming to the realization that they had it TOO EASY, and are adapting and doing well in their Ravens now...perhaps it is time you did the same.
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Upright
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Posted - 2005.08.24 16:17:00 -
[12]
I'm too chicken and not good enough to grind level 4 missions in 0.1 space. Because of this and the fact that I'm not a robot, anything over 100k lp isn't a real option for me. So I do level 3 missions with high quality in 0.3->0.7 space. Luckily I don't seem to be missing out on much in the way of high end offers. There's always a few posts complaining about them in this section (rightly so).
I try to build up 20->30k lp on a couple of agents, cancel the bad offers, accept the good ones. Sadly I need to reject the freed slaves offer the agents keep trying to pawn off on me daily and spend half the day running around reactivating the agents. You can get 2x +3 implants for 20k lp, which is slightly more lp efficent then 8x +3 for 120k lp.
The 'LP shop' idea is a good one, it'd probably mean lp would have less bang for their buck because you could choose the item you wanted with your lp, but people with 500k+ on an agent would still be happy. Failing that, just some updates to the offers table would be praised by all mission runners.
The devs/gms keep falling back on the argument 'not all offers are worth it, you need to check for yourself, some are meant to be bad'. Hows this argument: 'all offers are horrible, a select few for items that are player regulated are actually worth the lp, the rest are auto reject, fix offers or ill kill a cat'.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.08.24 17:25:00 -
[13]
It's not too hard to get high LP offers tbh.
I do missions in lowsec. I can do some missions in 40 minutes for 10,000 LP. They add up quickly.
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Galk
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Posted - 2005.08.24 22:30:00 -
[14]
One thing that allways gets me realy.
While i do understand the devs have to take into account people will farm agents for rewards/offers as a money maker, they ignore the people that got enjoyment from doing missions for the rewards and rare items from the lp system....
Yes ofcourse i was going for the gallente navy mega offer.. it's the ship i allways wanted... until was forced to train caldari ships due to a player war.. gallente ships were the only ones i flew for nearly 2 years... it was the pinacle... and now im convinced im going to be denied unless i throw a billion plus at it... in which time it completley screws up the months of grinding.
I couldn't care less about formula and equation of lp points per isk... it's all bollox.. what made missions worth it for me as a primary goal were the offers.. after the mega id have loved to start a collection of navy weapons and such... thats exictment and a game i enjoy... it's progression...
Other games offer you reward for time and effort and goals to head towards.. with eve you simpley hit a random brick wall... which has now been numbed to isk selling implants, and crappy isk sink offers which for 9/10 players/agent runners the later isn't even considerd. It's no fun after months of trying.
Yes yes i know.. wait for kali....
i don't know why.. but i get this horible feeling they made missions/offers and all the rest of it a complete unbalanced mess...
So we all love the kali patch as the grand saviour as we first hailed lv4's last year.
Far fetched probaly... but as it is.. lv4's to any sort of highend player are completely rubbish atm... they pretty much turned them into isk builders only......
Thats so crap when you consider pve is poor in eve as it is:/
--------
23
Arguing that namechanging would promote griefing is somewhat moot given the current FFA on that front.
'Danton Marcellus'
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mrg29
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Posted - 2005.08.25 00:45:00 -
[15]
great post galk.
there are alot of ppl out there whose primary concern mission running is not just making isk.
thats why i keep complaining about the lack of variety in the offer system.
the recent changes have meant there is almost zero incentive to build up to higher levels of lps.
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Sadist
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Posted - 2005.08.25 03:09:00 -
[16]
What a ******* revelation. I've been saying this over and over since middle june.
---------------
Originally by: Dark Shikari
"One Trit to rule them all, One Trit to find them, One Trit to bring them all, and in the veldspar bind them"
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Ajaya
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Posted - 2005.08.25 03:15:00 -
[17]
Wow. Deja Thoris = Contraband's Tech 2 Agent/Forum ***** 
I agree the offer system is flawed at the moment. I don't agree that CCP lets items have the value that players give them. CCP has always been manipulating the market through patches that change rarity or value of an item. The simple fact is, they know which items are going to be worth how much when they program them into the offers. They also know that they are putting in "bad offers". This much was said in a dev chat, and they said that smart players would reject those offers and wait for the next. I fail to see the reason why they'd want to bombard someone with garbage offers before finally getting something decent.
The first lvl 4 agent I used I got up to over 600k lp after a lot of work. I never got the navy megat offer I had hoped for. I ran a mission ever day for a month once I hit the threshold where I was eligable for one of those offers. Every day I got some silly offer that I didn't want. Finally, I decided I had had enough of doing a mission a day and just accepted the next offer I got. I was lucky and the offer was worth about as much as a navy thron would have sold for, but now I've run into the same situation.
Using a much better agent, I've accumulated a lot of lp with relative ease and in a short amount of time, so it's not nearly as frustrating, but it's still annoying seeing the most retarded offers coming in. Why. WHY would I want to spend several billion isk and a ton of LP for a few runs of navy vexor. It's never been worth that much. It could never sell for even the isk I would have to give him for the offer, not to mention all the LP it would require.
The offers are just stupid. Simple as that. CCP knows that they put in stupid offers, they've admitted as much. What I want to know is, WHY? What is their crazy reasoning for this?
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.08.25 08:03:00 -
[18]
well u need some plain stupid offers in game to keep everything else ticking over +3 implants can be sold easily within 3-4 hours on escrow for 50M for perception and willpoewr.
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Ethan Dark
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Posted - 2005.08.25 08:57:00 -
[19]
On top of the fact that higher LP doesn't always mean better rewards, there's also some very questionable logic at work. I just got an offer saying something in the lines of "I know you are a competent miner..." eventhough I have 1 Industrial skill and that's mining at level 1.
If you want to create an illusion that the agent actually knows and reconizes your character, at least scan his character-sheet and make offers and important/storyline missions accordingly.
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mrg29
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Posted - 2005.08.25 09:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: sonofollo
well u need some plain stupid offers in game to keep everything else ticking over +3 implants can be sold easily within 3-4 hours on escrow for 50M for perception and willpoewr.
i think we could accept SOME "plain stupid" offers. the reason we are concerned enough to raise this time and time again is the number of these far outweigh anything useful.
do we really want an agent offer system where everyone just takes +3 offers to sell.
i know i dont.
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stanNL
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Posted - 2005.08.25 12:15:00 -
[21]
offer
is this a mistake?
zet5000
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mrg29
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Posted - 2005.08.25 12:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: stanNL
offer
is this a mistake?
zet5000
nope - just an example of the situation being described
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Lee Fraga
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Posted - 2005.08.28 10:18:00 -
[23]
Talk about a Offer that sucks:
accumulated 270k lp at a lv 4 agent, and she is offering me a 16 run Gallente Navy Comet (frigate), ME 20 PE 8 for the staggering price of 160k lp and, grap hold of your seats ladies and gentlemen....1.440.000.000!!
That would mean i'd had to produce and sell each frig for 90 mill, just to get the offerprice back. Excuse my rude language, but no way in hell a Frigate is worth the same as a HAC!! Wake up CCP and smell the beans!
Lee Fraga, Mad Scientist
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2005.08.28 10:38:00 -
[24]
Offers requiring money is another issue, which in my experience seldom offers a good deal when compared to market prices.
So I just keep going until I see a deal I'm willing to take.
-----
if you don’t want your mother to know you were up and on the computer at 3:29 in the morning - DON’T post on a forum that she reads. |
babylonstew
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Posted - 2005.08.28 11:37:00 -
[25]
what really gets up my nose about this whole 1p = 1000 isk thing is, a navy raven 2 run bpc, 400k lp?, and 2.75 bill, so total of 3.15 billion, thats the value based on lp's and isk.
no go insure it for 112 mill?, thats where things are going qrong, if 1lp = 1000 isk, my navy and or faction ships should be insureed for 100's of million right?
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Uggster
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Posted - 2005.08.28 16:06:00 -
[26]
Come now Deja, dont get your pretty little head in a fret cos you aint getting good LP offers from agents, spare a thought for me, I got to 9.4 standing in the Home Guard with 1 agent before the LP offers were introduced.
Although I am pretty far from a math expert I recon I would have had about 500-600k of LP's minimun.
These offers are exactly what they say on the packet, think of them as typical corporate gifts and you have a good idea of what I mean...
One pen and paper set from say....Time mag is ok, after you get a pile in the corner of your office they are totally crap.
Agents are no differant 
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babylonstew
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Posted - 2005.08.29 00:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Uggster
Come now Deja, dont get your pretty little head in a fret cos you aint getting good LP offers from agents, spare a thought for me, I got to 9.4 standing in the Home Guard with 1 agent before the LP offers were introduced.
Although I am pretty far from a math expert I recon I would have had about 500-600k of LP's minimun.
These offers are exactly what they say on the packet, think of them as typical corporate gifts and you have a good idea of what I mean...
One pen and paper set from say....Time mag is ok, after you get a pile in the corner of your office they are totally crap.
Agents are no differant
Except time mag wouldnt try and 'give' you this uber pen set for $10,000 would they?
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.08.29 04:34:00 -
[28]
Setting up a shop offering rare, faction items in exchange for LP would be a nicer alternative. Instead of sitting waiting for the right offer to come along you get a list of items you can get with your LP.
The more you have the better stuff is available for you to choose from. Somthing like that anyway, im too tired to drag the idea out into more detail right now.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.08.29 10:40:00 -
[29]
keep it random the useless offers people are ignoring anyway the good ones are being snapped up
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Nyyn Djaa
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Posted - 2005.08.30 07:46:00 -
[30]
Transforming the offers into a shop that uses lps would see a huge drop in lp value since every single person out there could attain those special items with a bit of perseveration. This would force you to do even more missions. I'm not sure this is a better solution.
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