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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2005.08.27 22:35:00 -
[1]
Ok, so fleet battles are tests of how many people and lock and shoot one person before for he warps out or blows up. Many people find this boring. The devs have said they may look into it so I've decided to offer a solution.
In order to address several factors at once it seems to me the best solution is to add a signiture radius modifier based on the number of ships targeting you. This is good because it allows more small ships to be effective in comparison to larger ships since smaller weapons have better sig. resolution than larger weapons.
What I'd suggest is that a "multilock penalty" be used as a divider against the sig radius of the target. The penalty would be 1.2^(numberoflocks - 1), anything to the power 0 is of course 1 so thats no penalty. Two people would have a 1.2 penalty, three would be 1.44, etc. The actual game would use pre-calc figures stored in an array of course for faster execution: target_sig / multilock_penalty[number_of_locks].
So, if 2 BS are firing at another BS then 400 / 1.2 = 366sig, 366 / 400 = 83.333% relative sig radius vs thier guns means they miss 16.66% more often giving 166.667% as much firepower instead of 200%. Three BS would be 69.44% as effective each for 208.3% damage total. Four BS would be 57.87% as effective each for 231.48% damage. Five BS would be 48.225% as effective each for 241.12% damage, only 10% more than four BS. Six BS would be 40.19% as effective each for 241.12% damage, the same as five! Seven BS or more would end up doing less damage. Thus concentrated fire gives a maximum benifit of 241% more damage.
Now, the second good thing about using the sig radius as the penalty factor is that it doesn't hurt smaller ships as much if they are attacking a larger target. Six attackers would reduce the sig radius of the target to 40% but for a battleship that is still 160 sig radius; cruiser guns have 125 sig resolution so they would still hit the BS just fine. Even seven would give a 134 sig radius; not until you got to 8 cruisers would the penalty begin to have a major negative effect. For frigates its even better; you would need 14 locks to bring a BS's sig radius down to less than the 40 sig resolution of small guns.
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without
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Posted - 2005.08.27 22:54:00 -
[2]
too many ways to misuse this
lock your corp mates help them with sig radius
better to have t2 BS with a mod that disipates damage over all the gangs shields and armor, also an option for how much damage each ship wants to absorb. also the ship your shooting at should still take say 15-20% of the damage, teh otehr 80% is absorbed by the group. so it would take at lest 15BS concentrating fire on a single BS to kill it
need more though but not a bad idea overall i think
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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2005.08.28 13:17:00 -
[3]
Good point, I guess I missed that in the first post.
The game already flags people that are actively hostile. You would use that as the number rather than total locks.
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Drima Veeshaub
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Posted - 2005.08.28 14:40:00 -
[4]
Use the Ghostbusters logic, crossing of beams is dangerous.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.08.28 18:08:00 -
[5]
Concentrated fire is not bad at all. It's logical.
What you should concentrate on is not punishing the concentrated fire, but on making it more sensible to NOT use all-out gank setups.
Ganking itself is a logical extension of the Eve-world where grouping means power. Make tactics and intelligence mean just as much and there is no problem left.
Just punishing the fact that you have greater numbers wont help anyway. You're not gonna live longer, people will just learn to fight better and insta-kill two instead of one target like they do now.
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Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.08.28 19:07:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Concentrated fire is not bad at all. It's logical.
What you should concentrate on is not punishing the concentrated fire, but on making it more sensible to NOT use all-out gank setups.
Ganking itself is a logical extension of the Eve-world where grouping means power. Make tactics and intelligence mean just as much and there is no problem left.
All very true... but the fundemental problam is that as yet no way has been found of maing intelligence and tactics more powerfull than gank...
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Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.08.28 20:24:00 -
[7]
We need system where numbers still have the advantage but the combat does not degenerate into DOT armsraces.
My suggestion is that as more damage is being done to ship the ship get an increasing resistance to damage.
The damage counted and resisted would be the effective damage (the damage once resistances are taken into account).
It would not be expiotable (fine if you want to shoot your friend go ahead by all means....)
Turrets smaller than the targeted ship (ie medium guns V a battleship) would not be subject to the damage penelty (and would not be able to conrtibute to it either).
The penelty would have to be varied between ships (theres no point having the penetly on a frigate if it only kicks in after 1000 DPS). I would recomend the penelty come into effect once the DOT is equivellent to two ships of the same size with gank setups. Then the damage should halve for each succesive ship of the same size.
The penelty would not come into effect for the first ship to fire upon the target (so sniping smaller ships with a tempest or eagle, a perfectly valid tactic, does not get over nerfed)
Now what consequences would this have for combat?
Ships would not be destoryed in a single volley by any number of ships in there own class. The only time a ship could expect to be destroyed so fast is if the ship is very weak (a frigate) and being fired on by a much larger ship from great range.
The current fleet combat of "call target... target dies" would become very ineffeicent. More success would be gained by splitting the fleet into smaller groups. This would require more tactisc to be employed by the fleets commander... picking out vunerable targets for specialist squads... making sure ships are in the right groups... delgating some command. Should make fleet combat much more interesting.
Smaller ships might gain a little more surviablilty V bigger ships... not to sure what the implications of this would be.
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Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Batar Fireheart
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Posted - 2005.08.28 21:30:00 -
[8]
well in my opinion it isnt the game mechanics it is basic fleet strategy sure you are going to take out the biggest threat in an engagement FIRST and do it as quick as possible. i dont know if any of you were around for the real "cold War" it was basically who had more missiles then the other and it was a war of intelligence. now getting back to ingame "cold war" that is basically what it is a game of knowing what you are getting into and out witting your opponent. I have seen inferior fleets go into battle and come out victorious. victorious because they had good intell and good leaders.
"MAY YOUR WALLET BE FULL OF ISK AND YOUR CANNONS BLESSED" |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.08.28 22:04:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 28/08/2005 22:05:17
Originally by: Zaldiri
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius
Concentrated fire is not bad at all. It's logical.
What you should concentrate on is not punishing the concentrated fire, but on making it more sensible to NOT use all-out gank setups.
Ganking itself is a logical extension of the Eve-world where grouping means power. Make tactics and intelligence mean just as much and there is no problem left.
All very true... but the fundemental problam is that as yet no way has been found of maing intelligence and tactics more powerfull than gank...
It's simple.
Balance it better.
Currently, in any somewhat larger or longer ranged even situation, gank beats tank. However, in even situations with small numbers, gank already gets beaten by electronic warfare if the fight happens within it's range, and only part of the time. That makes EW just as effective and important in small gang warfare (say, 2-5 ships total), as the stacking of damage and tracking mods is.
What is then the remaining issue ?
1. In even but larger scale battles, EW is less effetive because a fleet can sit outside its range and still will have enough firepower to kill enemy ships in a single volley (or two for that matter).
That's the only problem left really. Using gank setups you'll kill easier, but using EW you'll kill MORE of them if you can play it right. At the cost of more risk yes.
Whats needed is just to get people withing a sorter range. Where tracking has greater influence, EW can be effective, tacklers have chance to reach their targets, smaller ships can conceivably be of value, and specialist gang bonuses actually make a big difference.
How to do that ?
split up the sensor booster, tracking computer and tracking enhancer into two modules each. Now you cant have the range AND the tracking, or the locking speed AND the locking range. Fool around with some penalties on modules here and there and you've got BS back into a range below 150km unless they are there for sniping only, but not for detruction at any range in between 30 and 150km.
Of course, some new improved tech bonuses for some of the cruisers (EW cruisers back into play plz) might help. Or other things. Fact is that it is an error to perceive a problem in any situation that is NOT even by far. No matter wether your enemy used stacked damage mdos or not, you are still going to die when massively outnumbered. Trying to contain that is useless and foolish.
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Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.08.28 22:21:00 -
[10]
oh yes of course numbers should win, my idea was to try and retain the advantage of numbers while stopping combat degenerating into a gank fest.
The real issue here is that the gank form of combat (any form of combat that relays on pure firepower for very quick results) is pretty rubbish. It's very lag dependent and gives the enemy no time to react, preventing the flowing combat that is one of the great things about EVE. Its inhibiting (though not completely blocking) the evolution of new and exciting tactics.
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Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Sirkill
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Posted - 2005.08.29 20:17:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Sirkill on 29/08/2005 20:17:04
Edit: sry wrong thread.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.08.30 11:47:00 -
[12]
ok so where do dreadnaughts come into this POS , sentry guns , drones , in future titans - carriers and other tech 2 ships that may be created ?
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