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Rahzelk
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Posted - 2003.07.26 07:48:00 -
[1]
I don't know if it has already been discussed in these forums, but I want to raise the problem anyway.
THere is a big big balancy trouble in indies capacity/skills. Look :
Ammar Bestower : require skill Ammar Industrial at level 1 (only  ) and has a cargo of 3500m3, but can reach 6700m3 fitted with 4 cargo expander 
Minamattar Hoarder require the indy skill at lvl 2 for 5500m3 when fitted with cargo expander. Well, it is like 1000m3 less, for a similar price...
Worse : Minmatar Mammoth, wich is the biggest Minmattar Indy need lvl4 in indy skill but provide ONLY 5700m3 when fitted full of cargo expander.
How the easiest to get industrial can be the best ? (iteron mark V apart). Well : because it has 4 low slot, when all other indies have only 3 low slot. It makes a HUGE difference when it comes to fit cargo expander.
So, please, either reduce the number of low slot of the bestower, or reduce the cargo room of this indy. Or add some low slot to the others industrial. But as it stands at the moment it is just ..well... stupid
(elegance-corp.net)
Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped. |
Thaddius Engle
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Posted - 2003.07.26 07:52:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Thaddius Engle on 26/07/2003 07:52:49
Aye, and I think training up amarr indy also raises the bestower's capacity, thus increasing its base cargo space as well.
I do wish someone would check out the balancing... a bestower will be able to outhaul even an iteron mk4 (and indy 4 takes a while to train, indy 5 takes a month). |
Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.07.26 07:59:00 -
[3]
if you love bestower, then use it, what's the problem? lol
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.26 08:42:00 -
[4]
Edited by: drunkenmaster on 26/07/2003 08:43:04
Upon noticing this myself, I went out and bought the skills necessary to pilot a bestower. Two days later I was flying it. No biggie. And everyone can do it if they want.
and I've seen people get over 9,000 in a 'stower 
.
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Halo Jones
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Posted - 2003.07.26 09:26:00 -
[5]
yes but they have **** poor shielding, and can be easily knocked off in 0.0 space
every ship has its role
Oberon Incorporated. |
Coss DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.07.26 09:39:00 -
[6]
Well before the patch where they nerfed the drops it was kinda easy to get beta expanders so that you could get a bestower to have around 9400 with a skill on just level 3 on amaar indy.
What should be considered is that now you can fill the indy up with containers so that you get 20% extra space. That gives the same bestower a cargospace of around 11,300.
That is a good cargo.
What needs to be done to the bestower I don't know exactly. What can be said that it doesn't have the best shields around. With some skills you still cant get the shields to above 200.
Anyway. As the skills to fly the bestower is very fast to learn there is no stopping for anyone to just get the skills and then fly one.
I would not like to see that all indys were the same. That would be so boring. What could be done is that they could have a bit diffrent classifications.
For example you could have miningindys with smaller cargo but with maybe 3-4 hislots for miners.
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DeusXi
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Posted - 2003.07.26 09:44:00 -
[7]
I loove my Mammoth... got it up to 927 m/s now with about 3k cargo, 404 m/s with 6100 cargo. I like how I can stop on a dime from the max speed of whatever I equip to make my max speed. I love my shields. I love the power it has.
SO what's better, a ship with lots of cargo or one that can do everything and do it well?
I have both. I only *ONLY* fly the bestower when I really really really need to move a lot of cargo in safe space at a relatively fast pace... no wait, I still use my Mammoth 
Each ship has it's pros and cons. 5 medium slots is probably better than 4 low, altho it would be nice to have the 4 low on the Mammoth as well... but not at the cost of a medium. And gotta love that agility.
I used to complain about bestower being too good compaired to Mammoth. Now that I have both, Mammoth wins hands down.
P.S. Skills help 
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Am I evil? No I'm not =P |
Entity
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Posted - 2003.07.26 09:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Entity on 26/07/2003 09:59:39
Don't touch my bestower!
10420 cargo (or 12500 with those TARDIS cans) at 485m/s, wee :-)
Oh, and 1252m/s with ~3400 cargo, too
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Coss DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.07.26 10:41:00 -
[9]
Yes and the bestower seams to be the only indy that has the right mass. It doesn't accelerate/stop/turn at the isane fast rate that the other indys do (or alteast the mamoth and the badger).
When approaching a container in an indy you need to stop the ship a few km from it or you will push the container far from the miners.
By the way Entity, what expanders and skill at amaar indy do you have? I use beta expanders and they give about 25% extra cargo each.
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Entity
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Posted - 2003.07.26 10:49:00 -
[10]
3x Local Hull Conversion (27.44%)
1x Beta Hull Mod (25.08%)
Indy lvl 3
(3500*1.15) * 1.2744^3 * 1.2508 = 10420.07
Funny thing is this is almost exactly a multiple of 650 (largest cargo can), putting me at 12480 cargo in the containers and 20 to spare :-)
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Coss DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.07.26 15:45:00 -
[11]
Cool, I was thinking the beta expanders where the best ingame.
In what region does the pirates drop the "Local Hull Conversion"?
Or if you have any to sell we will pay nice money for them. To bad items like that can't be placed on the market.
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Virulence
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Posted - 2003.07.26 16:15:00 -
[12]
bestower is the only indy the amarr have. they already nerfed it down 100 cargo space. seriously though, WTF is your problem, ITS JUST A HAULER.
shadows and dust |
StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.07.26 16:27:00 -
[13]
Things are not "that" unbalanced.
I can only talk about the badger II and the bestower, but you are only analysing cargo space.
The bestower is fragile, poor sheilds, and poor maneuvering. One PC salvo and it goes boom.
When I have to travel long distances to sell or pickup loot from npc hunting, I go with my badger II. That's almost 1100 m/s, 3500 cargo space, with 500+ HP shields (with a small shield booster fitted). It has 6 med slots, plenty of room to fit counter-measures.
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Agent Shield
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Posted - 2003.07.26 20:49:00 -
[14]
Bought a Bestower, bought the Amarr skills needed to pilot it; and there I was, able to pilot this ship.
Went out a few runs, real bad performance (handling), and the shields really suck. I can sit in my Badger II and take hits from pirates for a while until damage even starts to look like it hurts. But in the Bestower, it was dropping shields quickly and when I saw it get down to 48%, I was out of there.
In .2 security, where we are, I don't want to trust the shields in the fields while trying to pick up thousands of ore. While the Bestower can give more cargo hold, the Badger II with large expanded cargo holds can still hold 5,300 cargo. Add 4 afterburners, and you now travel at close to 600 m/s; and still have room for an extra shield recharger on top of the bonus for the shields by piloting the Badger.
Overall, the Badger II seems like a great ship for me. Just my opinion.
BTW, I only bought the Bestower and the skills required to pilot it for the extra cargo hold; but it is negated by the low shields and it's handling. When I am traveling with loads, I want security that I have a chance to get their intact; and when we head back to 0.0 again, I will need it's comfort. :-)
Agent Shield |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.07.26 21:41:00 -
[15]
The Badger MK2 is nice defensively but it can only haul half as much has a nicely decked out Bestower.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Coss DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.07.26 22:04:00 -
[16]
Although the bestower has not as much shields as the badger 2 it has a lot more armor and structure. Let's do some math (on ships uneffected by skills and modules):
Bestower:
125 shield
750 armor
750 structure
=1625 Hp total
Badger 2
350 shield
650 armor
650 structure
=1650 Hp total
So the total HP is the same if you do not include skills and modules. Sure if you are going to go through fields with lots of NPC pirates they may take down your shields but you are still not in any danger although it's not fun to repair armor.
Sure the bestower has a lot worse handling but it's still nice for long runs. You though have to watch out so you don't get stuck when traveling close to asteroids in the bestower as it is more likely to get stuck than the Badger 2.
I use nanofibres (that gives a little extra to cargo) on mine when traveling far and that gives a cargo of close to 5000 and a speed of almost 1300 m/s (with acceleration control level 4 and YS8 afterburners).
Anyhow, when in dangerous places you should always have escort for the indys IE everywhere except for 1.0 space
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Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.07.26 22:30:00 -
[17]
If something nasty happens to the bestower there better be something else I can fly with my high Amarr Indi skill :-)
The bestower is a like a low and high level vessel rolled into one that only gets slowly better as your skills improve - until you hit level 5 and the Iteron V is better. At mid levels the bestower is about equal to others, just in different ways.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Agent Shield
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Posted - 2003.07.26 22:49:00 -
[18]
Thanks Coss for showing some numbers, and one thing I do like is that if the shields get hit on the Badger, the shields regenerate. If the shields go down faster on the Bestower, then you either have to take time out to repair, or spend Isk to repair at a station.
But, it's a game, and we all have our opinions of which ship we like better. Love having choices though.
Agent Shield |
Virulence
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Posted - 2003.07.26 23:24:00 -
[19]
NERF THE ITERON MARK V!!!!!!!! IT CAN HAUL MORE THAN MY BESTOWER!!!! WTF!!!
shadows and dust |
Ends
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Posted - 2003.07.27 07:44:00 -
[20]
The indys are not supposed to be cookie cutter ships, they are role specific ships. Bandy about what numbers you like, but fact is you don't take a bestower anywhere near a fight. Badgers do very nicely in a fight and are capable of jamming battleships on their own. Other indys fill different roles, some are sort of smaller starter indys and others the end all be all indy. Not everything has to be the SAME.
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Praetorion
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Posted - 2003.07.27 10:22:00 -
[21]
There is a hell of alot more than just hauling you can do with an industrial, and the ships are balanced accordingly. If you think hauling is all an industrial does/can do, you have already lost the game, move on.
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Minuz1
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Posted - 2003.07.30 14:19:00 -
[22]
Gallente indies need abit of balancing...making the step from mk 3 to mk4 4 worth it...today the mk 3 is a better ship for most situations.
The mk 4 iteron has only 20 powercore...thus negating the use for 4 medium slots...it needs the same powercore as the mk 3 or more to be able to put those medium slots to use for ab's which is probably the most used items used on industrials.
Bestower should be nerfed....no question....just look at how many ppl are flying those...I don't think there are any ships that have a bigger % of users then they do and that makes the game abit tedious. Make the other types worth getting so ppl don't just pick the one.
-Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!!!!! |
Aeryn
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Posted - 2003.07.30 14:42:00 -
[23]
Ok, Bestowers might have decent armour and structure. But when they're getting worn away, so are ship modules. Shields are also faster to regenerate then armour and structure - plus they do it by themselves if you let them.
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Varsuuk
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Posted - 2003.07.30 15:12:00 -
[24]
Anyone ever lose a module to damage without losing a ship??
That was mentioned as a negative (the taking of damage) but I have seen only 99% damaged mods and no lost ones. All fixed for free by armor/hull mods but that isn't the point...
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2003.07.30 16:20:00 -
[25]
Just leave the goddamn ship alone, enough of this nerfing talk!
If you envy bestower fly it then! I'm gallente and I fly bestower, took only couple of hours to learn it. And yes it's good cargo but shields suck and it's agile as oversized zeppelin, so it's ballanced.
Oh, yeah, btw let's nerf everything, might as well play tic-tac-toe...
--
2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Sunstar3D
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Posted - 2003.07.30 17:13:00 -
[26]
The Mammoth's speed is currently bugged. It doesn't get the bonus of 5% per level.
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Iminay
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Posted - 2003.07.30 18:07:00 -
[27]
OMG
BESTOWER IS TOO GOOD
NERF
hell yea
lets make all cargo haulers the same
lets make all cruisers the same
lets make all battle ships the same.
wait
lets make one type of ship only
no skils to fly it
then everyone will be the same.
Once that happens
we can start complaining about the weapons.
seriously, wtf is wrong with you? dont like diversity? everything needs to be a shade of grey for you?
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Derkan
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Posted - 2003.07.31 03:01:00 -
[28]
I have 10k in cargo in my bestower. When I go into areas without protection I use an indy with a higher armor and shield rating.
Derkan
http://eve-coldfusion.com |
Varsuuk
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Posted - 2003.07.31 09:44:00 -
[29]
My one issue of importance is speed.
Personally a less important one is why does Amarr Industrial have the equiv of a top indy as a level 1 skill needed - the special abil of + cargo is GOOD that one race has it but what is offered the more expensive and harder to train other races? One guy said sure nerf and make all same. Well, for many it IS all same now: 80-90% Bestowers regardless of your race.
I fly Min cos I am Min, no GOOD reason just I DO believe in variety.
I know Amarr get cargo. Min get 5% speed (bugged I hear) what do Cald and Gal get (esp Gal with like 12 Indies ;P)? I am really asking btw... I don't know and not on now.
My big issue is speed. Besides have abil to go highest cargo by far, they can have as good cargo as most AND fastest speed.
I know some Gal or possibly Cal ones have 35 power - so these can conceivable setup MWDs for blockade running. Bestower can with less cos they get 4 low slots for power cores. Or speed mods. So if I get it right, Vestowers are faster both with MWD or with mods than Min indies? ?
Or am I not right - anyone have info on non UBER gear setups? ie: pirate drops from anything short of very rare cruiser stuff - what cargo and speeds can they get? Assuming lvl 4 skills and 5 in second comparison.
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Coss DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.07.31 11:11:00 -
[30]
Sure you can fit a MWD to a bestower but that has 3 setbacks:
1. Your shield and cap is lowered.
2. You cant use any modules that gives extra cargo.
3. Your cap is drained a lot faster than having afterburners.
I have tried to use MWDs on my bestower but the capdraining wasn't worth the extra speed. The topspeed was about 1500 m/s with MWD.
With 4 YS8 and 4 overdrive injectors you get a speed of around 1400 m/s.
The best combo (according to me) is the use of nanofibres. The better onces give around 5-10% extra cargo each so you can have a fair amount of cargo and still as speed of 1200+ m/s with them.
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Ends
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Posted - 2003.08.01 00:17:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Ends on 01/08/2003 00:21:27
Stuffing a MWD on a bestower is not practical, I knocked myself out trying to do it. If I remember right you need engeneering 4 and 4 10% powergrid boosters. Reduces cargo capacity to the baseline 3500m3 plus indy skill. If you want a MWD, the only practical choice is the iteron V if you still want any kind of carrying capacity.
That reminds me, if you want speed four 30% abs with Accleration Control 4 and 4 27% cargo expanders gets you a bestower with 11000 or so capacity and 550m/s speed. However equiping an indy like that at current market prices would have you flying around with about 24 million worth of gear that you run a real risk of losing easily. (4 quad lifs@2mill each and 4 27% expanders@ 4mill each)
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Ends
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Posted - 2003.08.01 00:24:00 -
[32]
If I was to ask about some sort of indy changes I'd like to be able to spend 80 to 100mill on a bigger indy. Something like a battleship class indy lol. Very vulnerable but with very substantial storage for deep space mining. Prolly be pretty bad for trade though when people can haul the entire supply of a region around with them on a route :P I wonder how they are going to avoid that problem with titans lol
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.08.01 10:29:00 -
[33]
I dont particularly want to see the Bestower nerfed, I dont see that as constructive, however as everyone says "it only takes a few mins to train, if you think its the best fly it" and i think this is the problem, they need to make the current bestower Bestower mk II and up its skill req to 3/4 and add a Bestower Mk I with lower stats but skill 1 req, *or* they need to buff the mammoth and iteron IV to the point where the weeks training time is worthwhile (currently if you compare mammoth to Bestower the bestower wins on about 80% of stats, draws on 10% and the mammoth wins the other 10% but cant make use of all of it)
The Mammoth gets described as being one of the most powerfull/high tech indys .. it can fit less CE's or power mods than a bestower (which is fine, fits the race) and has more medium slots for AB's, but it has the same grid, so it cant fit more unless your willing to lose yet more CE's or spend yet more time training (not that the er 45 mins vs 7 days training difference wasnt already big)
oh and just as an aside with Engineering 5 and three Reactor Control I's (+10% grid) Mammoth is 49.9 grid :/ so dont even have the option of trying MWD (so much for faster heh)
BOth Bestower and Mammoth have 30 grid, now 4 AB's on a bestower take 32 grid, so engineering 2 (two and a half hours?) and your set (4x ab, 3x CE) with a Mammoth 5 AB need 40 grid so you need Engineering 5(~7 days) and an Control I to fit them .. so for your +1 AB you have to spend an extra 7 days training and lose out on two CE's (which can easily be 2-3k cargo of course)
I love my mammoth, its definetely the coolest looking Indy and I have loved it since beta (when it was balanced *sigh* till the final day before release when they did the big re-balance) I'm minmater so the thought of flying an amarr ship is not a possibility :P I'm vaguely considering spending a month training Gal Indy V so I can fly a ship that can beat the bestower on speed (and pretty much everything of course) Despite it being gallente and not minmater .. how weird is that
Final thought : to the guy who said so what its just a hauler who cares .. for some people hauling is there profession/career choice .. it was mine till about 3 weeks ago when I gave up on them ever producing some sort of balance of skill training time vs hauling power
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2003.08.01 21:20:00 -
[34]
Bestower is fine as is.
I have been using a badger II since about 3rd week of release and I wouldn't give it up for the world.
Although the bestower is available to me I wouldn't fly one except for local mining ops.
So although it's a great local mover, it doesn't even come close to my badger for 'special ops'.
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