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720mm vs 650mm arty

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Kegger McManus	Posted - 2005.09.06 00:04:00 - [1] Since apprently there is no search feature on the forums.. All i hear on here is 650s suck, go 720s or go home. However, cost wise 650s are obviously less, and they are easier to fit on my ship (they will be going on a rupture -please stick to talking about the arty :D) Should i load up power-boosting modules to fit the 720s, or go with the 650s?
Sergej	Posted - 2005.09.06 00:09:00 - [2] In most cases where fitting 650 means you can get extra gyro II on it's wort fitting 650s over 720s... I said MOST cases:). Without details I cannot say more really. Regards, Sergej
Kegger McManus	Posted - 2005.09.06 19:41:00 - [3] Well, i like the dmg of the 720s, ofcourse, but to fit them leaves little room for anything else, like a missle launcher, or low slot stuff.
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.09.06 19:42:00 - [4] Originally by: Kegger McManus Since apprently there is no search feature on the forums. yes there is shame its not internal though....
Cobra64	Posted - 2005.09.06 20:23:00 - [5] Train weapons upgrades and advanced weapons upgrades, then move on to energy grid upgrades and energy management. A rupture without 720's is like a blue Ferrari. Alternately you can try the close up setup, I didn't but a lot of people did and liked it, autocannons, launchers and a nos. good luck
Uglious	Posted - 2005.09.06 20:30:00 - [6] Personally, I'm nearly religious on using 650's vs. 720's, and get about 550 wrecking shots with my Vag with Dep Uranium ammo with them. If you do the math, the 650 vs. 720 has about the same damage per second due to the higher rof, and they have a higher tracking speed, which means that if you do more close combat, you will probably have a higher dps overall anyway. In addition, if you have to sacrifice even one turret slot OR a damage mod to fit the 720's vs. 650's, then it is generally better to fit the 650's. I personally fit 5x650's on my Vag (yea, lots of people will say WHAT, you don't use AC's on it), and it lets me fly around in 0.0 hunting BS's for HOURS without having to reload on ammo. The same could be said of 720's, but I've done the math, and 650's work far better for me.
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.09.06 20:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Uglious Personally, I'm nearly religious on using 650's vs. 720's, and get about 550 wrecking shots with my Vag with Dep Uranium ammo with them. If you do the math, the 650 vs. 720 has about the same damage per second due to the higher rof, and they have a higher tracking speed, which means that if you do more close combat, you will probably have a higher dps overall anyway. In addition, if you have to sacrifice even one turret slot OR a damage mod to fit the 720's vs. 650's, then it is generally better to fit the 650's. I personally fit 5x650's on my Vag (yea, lots of people will say WHAT, you don't use AC's on it), and it lets me fly around in 0.0 hunting BS's for HOURS without having to reload on ammo. The same could be said of 720's, but I've done the math, and 650's work far better for me. What sort of range do the 650's give compared to 720's though?
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.09.06 22:46:00 - [8] my last round of calculations showed you need to sacrifice 2 damage mods before its better to fit 650s. But if your a new char and your skills are up go ahead and fit the cheaper 650s. The idea wiht 720 is that you are further away and need less defence and thus have more power for mods to get the 720s fitted. If they are up your arse anyway then 650 not a bad choice since you can defend better. 720 are nice, 650s are nice too. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
KilROCK	Posted - 2005.09.07 02:06:00 - [9] You use artillery on a vagabond, self destruct, thanks.
P'ercev'hal	Posted - 2005.09.07 04:57:00 - [10] Edited by: P''ercev''hal on 07/09/2005 04:57:31 Depends KR... I certainly wouldn't expect to fight a Vaga at long range.

KilROCK	Posted - 2005.09.07 05:19:00 - [11] Originally by: P'ercev'hal Edited by: P''ercev''hal on 07/09/2005 04:57:31 Depends KR... I certainly wouldn't expect to fight a Vaga at long range. The guy took a Machariel mining, and lost it on his second lvl4 mission because he had plates, a med rep and medium slots full of target painters, using 800mm IIs. HE SHOULD SELF DESTRUCT
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.09.07 09:48:00 - [12] 650:s are not bad at all. I of course went for the "bigger is better" hype at first, but 650:s are pretty nice on any minmatar cruiser. 720:s are better in many ways ofc, but 650:s are a lot kinder to the powergrid and on minmatar ship setups that can count for a lot. Since you dont need PG mods to fit them it opens up possibilities that are pretty useful. A Rupture with 5 gyro and 4 650 has very nice volley damage for instance...
Nafri	Posted - 2005.09.07 10:06:00 - [13] 650 are inferior to other races guns, thats one reason not to use them Your bla bla hit bla bla for bla bla damage. Wanna have some bubu now?
Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2005.09.07 11:20:00 - [14] I have compared the 650mm artilleries to: med 200mm Railgun I and focused medium Beam Laser I. What Nafri says about the 650 being inferior, is correct, when you compare the weapon statisticts: 650mm Artillery I activation cost: 1 Energy powergrid usage: 200 MW cpu usage: 27 tf rate of fire: 12,75 sec optimal range: 16100 m damage modifier: 4 x Compared to the other similair med turret types: 200mm Railgun I activation cost: 6,45 Energy powergrid usage: 180 MW cpu usage: 35 tf rate of fire: 4,875 sec optimal range: 18000 m damage modifier: 2 x Focused Medium Beam Laser I activation cost: 11,67 Energy powergrid usage: 150 MW cpu usage: 30 tf rate of fire: 4,8 sec optimal range: 17500 m damage modifier: 2 x The latter two all require: less pg to fit(avg -35 pg), have ~3x higher rof, though do 50% less dmg, have longer opt range and tracking is slightly better then the 650mm. Yes the latter two also have there cons: more CPU usage and cap usages, but overall looking at there stats they seem better then the 650`s. But does this difference in papar performance also reflect in a same ingame difference, do the rails and beams outperform the 650`s? If the awnser is yes, then I think they will need some tweaking (maybe also the 720`s on some points). Anyone know the awnser to this?
Kegger McManus	Posted - 2005.09.07 12:22:00 - [15] Very good points everyone. One other question I figured I might get cleared up here, that i was never really sure about. When i look at the attributes for a turrent, say the 650 or 720 arty, is the optimal range it's "Base" range or does include any bonuses i might have? Or do i have to calculate them myself?
Uther Doull	Posted - 2005.09.07 12:39:00 - [16] if you hit info from market or when the item is in your hanger it will give the base values, if you hit info on the module while you have it fitted and it's loaded with ammo it will show the values after your skills and the ammo effects are applied to it
Uglious	Posted - 2005.09.07 14:00:00 - [17] Originally by: KilROCK Originally by: P'ercev'hal Edited by: P''ercev''hal on 07/09/2005 04:57:31 Depends KR... I certainly wouldn't expect to fight a Vaga at long range. The guy took a Machariel mining, and lost it on his second lvl4 mission because he had plates, a med rep and medium slots full of target painters, using 800mm IIs. HE SHOULD SELF DESTRUCT Hey! I've been focusing on the HAC skills for a LONG time. If I can lock it, I can hit it with my Vag. I can easily take out multi-bs spawns in 0.0, the ammo lasts forever, and damage is nice. Because of the range, I rarely have to get up-close with tacklers, which reduces the risk of a large fight even more. In this case, the odd configuration IS working, despite what you think. Forgive me for trying things that others don't expect.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.09.07 14:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Agnar Koladrov The latter two all require: less pg to fit(avg -35 pg), have ~3x higher rof, though do 50% less dmg, have longer opt range and tracking is slightly better then the 650mm. Yes the latter two also have there cons: more CPU usage and cap usages, but overall looking at there stats they seem better then the 650`s. But does this difference in papar performance also reflect in a same ingame difference, do the rails and beams outperform the 650`s? If the awnser is yes, then I think they will need some tweaking (maybe also the 720`s on some points). Anyone know the awnser to this? Double damage bonus ships like the rupture can do a bit more damage with the cruiser skill trained, and you should account them for the comparison. Single damage bonus minmatar ships lack something dps wise, no matter what gun is considered. I'll post some maths about that later. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- I have the scientific evidence that some people can write but cannot read.
Henry Holliday	Posted - 2005.09.07 15:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Uther Doull if you hit info from market or when the item is in your hanger it will give the base values, if you hit info on the module while you have it fitted and it's loaded with ammo it will show the values after your skills and the ammo effects are applied to it Omg thankyou. I hate being a newbie. :(
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.09.07 15:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Nafri 650 are inferior to other races guns, thats one reason not to use them 650s are the 250s of medium guns, if that makes sense. Just like 1200s are the 250s of large guns.

Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2005.09.07 16:16:00 - [21] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Nafri 650 are inferior to other races guns, thats one reason not to use them 650s are the 250s of medium guns, if that makes sense. Just like 1200s are the 250s of large guns. 650s > the 250s of med guns? Shouldn`t that be 200 of med guns? Synchronically: 250 as the high end of med guns, 200 as mid end of med guns and dual guns as the low end ones. Then 650s will fal under 200. But do you mean 650s are comparible to 250s because of the PG requirements? I don`t really get it.
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.09.07 16:19:00 - [22] Edited by: Brute Helmet on 07/09/2005 16:19:21 Originally by: Agnar Koladrov Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Nafri 650 are inferior to other races guns, thats one reason not to use them 650s are the 250s of medium guns, if that makes sense. Just like 1200s are the 250s of large guns. 650s > the 250s of med guns? Shouldn`t that be 200 of med guns? Synchronically: 250 as the high end of med guns, 200 as mid end of med guns and dual guns as the low end ones. Then 650s will fal under 200. But do you mean 650s are comparible to 250s because of the PG requirements? I don`t really get it. Hes not trying to make sense, hes whining.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.09.07 16:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Brute Helmet Edited by: Brute Helmet on 07/09/2005 16:19:21 Originally by: Agnar Koladrov Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Nafri 650 are inferior to other races guns, thats one reason not to use them 650s are the 250s of medium guns, if that makes sense. Just like 1200s are the 250s of large guns. 650s > the 250s of med guns? Shouldn`t that be 200 of med guns? Synchronically: 250 as the high end of med guns, 200 as mid end of med guns and dual guns as the low end ones. Then 650s will fal under 200. But do you mean 650s are comparible to 250s because of the PG requirements? I don`t really get it. Hes not trying to make sense, hes whining. Whining would imply that I'm not right, wouldn't it? Go flame elsewhere.
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.09.07 16:29:00 - [24] Edited by: Brute Helmet on 07/09/2005 16:30:08 Actually , its more of a statement of fact. Read back a few weeks and you will find a thread started by or invaded by DrunkenOne every week or so where he tells people how bad some ship or module suck, or how overpowered it is. So, Not a flame, fact. Personal Opinions only
Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2005.09.07 16:35:00 - [25] And now you are "whining" about a someone who in your eyes "whines", ironical Back OT plz!
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.09.07 16:35:00 - [26] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 07/09/2005 16:37:47 Originally by: Brute Helmet Edited by: Brute Helmet on 07/09/2005 16:30:08 Actually , its more of a statement of fact. Read back a few weeks and you will find a thread started by or invaded by DrunkenOne every week or so where he tells people how bad some ship or module suck, or how overpowered it is. So, Not a flame, fact. Personal Opinions only I'm still waiting for you to explain how the statement I made is in any way wrong. Originally by: Agnar Koladrov And now you are "whining" about a someone who in your eyes "whines", ironical Back OT plz! Hahahhaha gg right there. Anyways Agnar, what I meant by "650s are the 250s of medium guns," is that 650 artys are the medium gun version of the 250 arty, which is the worst gun in the game. 280 howis are so much better than 250s its retarded. Hence, 720s are so much better than 650s its retarded. However, 650->720 is much more balanced than 250->280, because of the fact that 720s take up a lott more grid than 650s so its actually practical to use 650s occasionally. Still, 720s are a lot better and you should try to fit them when at all possible.
Kegger McManus	Posted - 2005.09.07 17:41:00 - [27] Originally by: Uther Doull if you hit info from market or when the item is in your hanger it will give the base values, if you hit info on the module while you have it fitted and it's loaded with ammo it will show the values after your skills and the ammo effects are applied to it Awsome, So info @ Market = Base range, Info fitted to ship (no ammo) = Skill bouns included, and Info fitted to ship, with ammo = skill+weapon bonus/mods?
Nafri	Posted - 2005.09.07 17:56:00 - [28] Its very easy with howitzers if the burst damage doesnt compensate the extreme high ROF, thy arent worth it. This counts for 250/650 and 1200. All of them have all the disadvantages of projectiles, but without the tanking breaking of their bigger brothers. Your bla bla hit bla bla for bla bla damage. Wanna have some bubu now?
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.09.07 20:33:00 - [29] Edited by: j0sephine on 07/09/2005 20:33:58 "Awsome, So info @ Market = Base range, Info fitted to ship (no ammo) = Skill bouns included, and Info fitted to ship, with ammo = skill+weapon bonus/mods?" Almost ^^ info in market = base stats info on ship = base stats + skills + ship modules info on ship with ammo = the above plus ammo modifiers (typically the range and cap use per shot)
Brute Helmet	Posted - 2005.09.08 07:30:00 - [30] Originally by: Agnar Koladrov Originally by: DrunkenOne Anyways Agnar, what I meant by "650s are the 250s of medium guns," is that 650 artys are the medium gun version of the 250 arty, which is the worst gun in the game. 280 howis are so much better than 250s its retarded. Hence, 720s are so much better than 650s its retarded. However, 650->720 is much more balanced than 250->280, because of the fact that 720s take up a lott more grid than 650s so its actually practical to use 650s occasionally. Still, 720s are a lot better and you should try to fit them when at all possible. Yeah that`s true yes, though I use them on my stabber. For ratting they are fine* They still can use some extra ROF(faster), like 8.75 instead of 12.75 to compensate for the relative low dps. I think that will make them much better. The word would be _ber....



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