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Captain Egghead
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Posted - 2005.09.06 04:49:00 -
[1]
Something seriously needs to be done about this. Logging into a game where you eventually figure out the only way you can ever match the other players is to stick around for 3 years or more. Most new players after finding it out will log out and not think twice about coming back.
New players should be able to pvp in higher sec space with no penalties (except flagging etc that happens in lower sec). At least then the game becomes more interesting for newer players.
Some fools are going to reply and say oh but that would make veteran players make alts and buy them all the best stuff and etc etc abuse bla bla. Will yes but at least the sp will be about the same. And if people are that pathetic then hey, what can you do.
At the moment the only way new players can pvp and stand a chance is in massive groups or with a corp, but some people dont want to join corps straight away or ever, some people dont want to have to be in big groups.
If CCP did somthing like this i can garantee even more new players would join.
I mean look at it this way, if i could play a game where i could grind up to high level and get some decent stuff to pvp with, even if it took me a few months, i would sure as hell do that over having to stay years to be equal to other people.
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Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.09.06 07:08:00 -
[2]
You dont need 40M skillpoints to PvP, 5M or so is enough. And by specializing in a few weapons and shiptypes, you can reach 'high levels' fairly fast (3 months or so). You wont be an uber PvPer, but you will be good enough to PvP selected targets.
Having said this, you need to realize one thing: you will NEVER EVER be the most powerful character. Just as in real live.
Btw, PvP in high sec is just stupid, since where would people who dont want any PvP go then?
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Fingalickin
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Posted - 2005.09.06 07:39:00 -
[3]
 If instant "go get them" fun is what you want, then go join WOW.
I'm sorry if this sounds like i'm dismissing your thoughts, it's not what i mean.
Eve's numbers of players online is increasing all the time.
Eve is a game that takes time to train and there is a vast amount of "job" options.
I have been playing Eve for 3-4 months now and finally starting to find my feet and decide what i want to do and the areas i want to train - my career path.
What i'm trying to say is that I know what Eve is about and the long term requirements for training and learning. It keeps me interested and i know i'll be playing it for a long time to come.
I know the lvl's i can aim at, what i am capable of and the agent mission system is good in that it trains you up, getting harder as you go on - teaching you the skills you need, whilst getting experience, for future PvP.
I KNOW what Eve is about. If Eve was that rubbish and was full of High lvl Veteran players, then you wouldn't be getting the increase of players that you are seeing now.
It gives you the option of being part of a corp or solo (Even then you are still part of a corp - you have to be! Even if it's only pator tech school or butor tribe bureau!) The majority of veterans are willing to help and advise, take you on PvP runs to teach and give you experience.
If it was easy to get that good at PvP very quickly as you suggest, i would have been bored of it months ago.
"Don't mess with the chicken! It Tastes sooooooo good!" |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.09.06 08:10:00 -
[4]
Hi,
Eve's specific skilltrees have about 10 million skillpoints each only.
that means that if you pick a thing to be good at, you'll have maximum effectiveness at it before the year is past.
The only thing vets have going for them is that they can access capital ships now, and that they are more versatile and have up to 3 different skilltrees trained.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
babylonstew
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Posted - 2005.09.06 08:12:00 -
[5]
thats odd, i was a new player less then a year ago,and never once have i thought,this isnrt fair, he been payingt longer but i should have his skill points blah blah blah.
im happy weith the factothers in this game will allways have more sp then me, cbig deal,even vets die to noobs now and again, small distractions, tyhe odd mistake whatever.
its the way the gameis,and yes, specialisation get banded about alot,and it does actually work that way.
and welldone, your postnumber 342215675 on this subject
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Gibson Grey
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Posted - 2005.09.06 19:24:00 -
[6]
Uhm... shouldn't characters who've been playing longer be better at the game than us noobs? Not to mention that all the above posts are true, it doesn't really take all that long to skill up to a decent cruiser or something and start PVPing with a group, if that's what you're into. You're not going to be the most feared pilot in the galaxy, but that's something that's only going to come with experience anyway.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.09.06 19:46:00 -
[7]
Meh its just people bored with WoW coming here and expecting to be able to power level to level 60 in a month. EVE is unique in that it has no uber items that the vets spend months grinding to get. No "bind on equip" stuff that prevents a noob buying the best item ingame. Yeah in WoW you can grind to level 60 easily, and the vets will kill you because they have far better equipment.
In EVE nearly everyone has the same equipment but character skills are take longer. I would add that out of my 12 million SP, maybe 5mil apply to any ship I am flying as I am fairly jack of all trades. If I am up against someone with 6 mil specced in one ship then I will die.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
Captain Egghead
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Posted - 2005.09.07 00:05:00 -
[8]
Think you all just miss the point completely. And no im not a wow player coming to here expecting to power level to 60 and that crap. I've probably been playing MMORPGS since you were in nappies. This arguement is about letting newer players who want to fight each other fight each other and not have veterans come blast the crap out of them in there apocs and tech 2 equipment. Simple as that.
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Kar'uthan
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Posted - 2005.09.07 00:38:00 -
[9]
Poke about and you will see that there are already possibilities of such things being looked into. I don't entirely agree with you, but I see your point. These possibilites are in the tactical environemnts being looked into http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=192517 I'm not sure that you could limit entry to an area based on having too many skill points though, but you should be able to see some promice here.
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Russo
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Posted - 2005.09.07 04:23:00 -
[10]
Tactical environments, my idea wahaha
Russo - CEO Amarria Auxilia
XL pod for an XL personality
'Russo, what exactly do you feed your ego to keep it that big?.'
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Alfred Nobel
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Posted - 2005.09.07 05:22:00 -
[11]
I don't see the issue. While yes, a big difference in skillpoints does give an advantage in 1 on 1 combat, Eve isn't realy about 1 on 1. 2 guys with 3 months of skill and good play can easily defeat 1 guy with a year's skill. Eve PvP is mostly about fleet actions anyway. All a newb needs to win against high experience players is a couple of friends. Which is not at all the way most fantasy mmorgs work, where top characters can defeat nearly an infinite number of newbs ganged together.
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Saatar Fora
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Posted - 2005.09.07 07:10:00 -
[12]
Ignore that skillpoint number, it's not comparable to 'levels' like in other MMORPGs. Forget all the arguments about why you should or shouldn't be able to 'catch up', you don't need to.
A 30m sp char does not auto-pwn a 2 mil sp char. Indeed two or three low sp chars could take out a 30m sp char in most situations with the right tactics, whereas is most RPGs a difference that big would mean the older char could pretty much auto-pwn half a dozen low levels.
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Fingalickin
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Posted - 2005.09.07 07:33:00 -
[13]
Totally agree that Eve has emphasis on co-op play - it has plenty of scope and depth for the solo player - but big things can be achieved by big groups.
I see your point Egghead about a "newbie Pvp" area, but that would leave things wide open for exploitation by the more nefarious members of Eve.(Alt characters benefitting from isk and equip from 'big daddy' main alt)
The answer is already available - in a corp you can PvP corp members - by mutual consent - and is used by corps to train people for PvP as well as test new ship set ups.
The question i have for you is "define a newbie"!!!
It would be almost impossible to set down standards that would define a newbie. As has already been stated - unlike a lot of other MMORPG's Eve DOES NOT have levels - you are NOT a lvl 20 something or a lvl 10 something else.
10 people start Eve on the same day - ask what their skills are after a month and I guarantee they will ALL be different. So again - Define me a newbie!!
My advice would be that the system as it stands has more than enough scope for what you want - look at the profiles of the people replying here, most if not all the corps they belong to have a public access chat channel, try talking to people in the various corps, ask advice for what you want to do, listen and then decide - maybe join a corp.
You have NOT so far said what you want to PvP for - is it to be a pirate, just to kill other players? test your skills? Just for the hell of it? Depends how much depth you want to go into the game.
Again my advice would be - do missions, take advice from these veterans you seem to so dislike and train your skills accordingly - practice is available within a corp - use it.
"Don't mess with the chicken! It Tastes sooooooo good!" |
Sujaki
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Posted - 2005.09.07 09:20:00 -
[14]
on the one side it is true, that new player are more disadvantaged... because every few month there are coming new skills, which improves your ships and weapons. when should you learn all that stuff? The weapon power in that game is needed to have a chance in 10/10 Dungeons, but not to have PvP fights, because they last only about 10 to 30 seconds after flying hours through space... weapons against other players are overpowered i think! and you cant specialise on one part of skills, because you must have as much firepower like the old players to have a chance when are you going training all time in Mining to get money. And for money you need expensive minerals, like zydrine and megacyte, and without firepower you cant get into these sectors... even when there are now small amounts in hemorphite and that stuff, they are only available in low sec.
and a new player should play half a year only to see, that he only hurts the older players shild, before he is staying again in the asteroid belt to mine scordite with his new noob frigate for money to buy a better ship again. I think that sounds like a very boring playtime...
on the other side:
we started with 7 people and saved all our money together to buy an new ship after the next till everybody had a cruiser - the next part was to create a Corp. Then we tried to mine in 0.3 sectors for jaspet to get faster money and we got problems with pvp pirates - we lost ships - we runned away - but we returned 2 weeks later and picked them out one for one and showed them together, that we are noobs which can kill old players! We learned how to PvP and we had lots of fun - and we only played for 40 days to can do this!
After that we joined to a AntiPirate Community in a low sec territory where about 6 corps helped each other. After 2 month defending our small sector, we found a Alliance which looked for new members and now we are in a Alliance with access to all resources and Dungeons that exists in that outer ring sectors and have our own great Pos after a half year playing, a lot of PvP and Fleetbattles and enough Money to buy new ships after loosing them. and we startet with 7 noob frigs!
So every new player which says that is unfair, forgot that M in MMORPG - MULTIPLAYER - if you want to your stand alone thing in that game, you play the wrong game. And if you want have fun - look for friends - there are enough new players without corp which look for people to help each other!
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Sanaen Eydanwadh
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Posted - 2005.09.07 10:11:00 -
[15]
 Originally by: theRaptor
Meh its just people bored with WoW coming here and expecting to be able to power level to level 60 in a month.
Exactly how I feel it for some months...
(I feel like I have to add a "omg I agree with an UQS" thing, ahaha, hem)
-"catching up with vets" have no point in EVE. I don't know how it can have a point in other games tho...
- you don't need 20M "xps" to pvp - I'd say about 3M are really needed, but I'm quite sure I started with a lot less, and had a lot of fun.
- + the expected (little) flame at the OP, because this topic has already been discussed to death at least twice last week, and probably a 20 times last month.
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Praetor Novak
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Posted - 2005.09.07 14:44:00 -
[16]
If you are a new player, I CANNOT stress enough that you train your learning skills to Lv5 and then buy the "SOCT Advanced Skills" and train those to Lv5 also.
This is the ONLY way you will gain SP faster than your peers (players who have started at roughly the same time as you) and be able to at least be a mild challenge to a more veteran player.
Learning Skills
Praetor Novak - CEO |
Gabby05
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Posted - 2005.09.07 15:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Praetor Novak
If you are a new player, I CANNOT stress enough that you train your learning skills to Lv5 and then buy the "SOCT Advanced Skills" and train those to Lv5 also.
This is the ONLY way you will gain SP faster than your peers (players who have started at roughly the same time as you) and be able to at least be a mild challenge to a more veteran player.
Learning Skills
I heard that training basic learning skills to lvl 5 would take almost a year for itself to pay off, if it wasnt for the adv learning skills to shorten the pay off even more. But training adv lvl 4-5 would take years to eventually pay off, it would take like 6months to complete all your learning skills to adv lvl 5 taking you a further 3-4 months specialising  adv lvl 5 are you mad .
Saying that it dont take 1 week to get specific skills your gonna need to lvl 3 and you can be quite good and capable of doing stuff you want to do whilst you are training the learning skills.
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Praetor Novak
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Posted - 2005.09.07 16:05:00 -
[18]
It is true, there is some pain involved up-front for taking the time to train the learning skills up however, after closer inspection of the following threads there are two things that are evident:
1) They decrease your training time for other higher rank skills when taking them to higher levels, i.e. such as Lv4 and Lv5
2) The argument concerning the "time payoff" you have referenced, has one central caveat, it includes the use of +3 Implants.
So for players who are new to Eve and cannot afford +3 Implants the learning skills are the only alternative.
Also, if you are a PvP player and on occasion end up pod killed you are not out the substantial investment of repurchasing +3 Implants every so often.
I do understand your concern. After training one character up to >8mil SP and two others to >4mil SP, I can totally understand and appreciate the issues with learning skills vs. Implants.
To fly the Elite ships and use Tech II equipment in Eve there are many skills that need to be trained to Lv5. This is where the REAL impact to training time is felt without the advanced learning skills.
In the ideal world you would have both the Advanced Learning skills trained up and the High-end Implants.
Praetor Novak - CEO |
AlleyKat
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Posted - 2005.09.07 19:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Captain Egghead
Think you all just miss the point completely. And no im not a wow player coming to here expecting to power level to 60 and that crap. I've probably been playing MMORPGS since you were in nappies. This arguement is about letting newer players who want to fight each other fight each other and not have veterans come blast the crap out of them in there apocs and tech 2 equipment. Simple as that.
I have suggested recently that it would benefit newplayers to have a type of 'safezone' PvP area in empire space and the response was mixed.
I believed it would encourage players that were either new new or inexperienced to have a battle and gain confidence. I also suggested it because sometimes you will come across a local channel griefer who simply wants to annoy you, and, having a 'concord approved' scrap, with no podkills would reduce this occurance and resolve 'differences of opinion'.
Yes, low-sec is dangerous, but without risk, what would be the point of playing the game?
When you enter low-sec, there is a warning on the screen - this was not always the case - effectively stating 'enter at your own risk'. Once you click yes, you are agreeing that whatever happens is your responsibility.
I agree also that it may seem that you are an ant walking amongst giants, but really, you're not. Shoe on the other foot for a second here. If you learnt some basic crusier skills, fitting skills and gun skills; flew into low sec and hunted down a 'veteren' pilot and engaged him/her in a battle and won they would love it and probably dump some isk into your wallet  . Of course, they may also convo their friends and hunt you down. Unlikely because if word got out that a n00b blew them up, they would the laughing stock of their clan.
Facts of eve:
1: You will lose ships
2: You will get attacked in low sec.
3: People will respect you for trying.
4: People will help you with anything you can think of and some things you can't.
5: You can make more money and learn faster in a player-corp.
6: The more you put into this game, the more you get out of it.
7: When you are in a player-corp, you can blow each other up, regardless of where you are and most corps run combat-ops for PvP practice.
8: On the eve test server, you can blow up anyone you want, so long as you ask permission first.
My suggestion would be to enter a really good corp and see how you get on. Engage with other people, talk to them, tell them what you want to do and they will make sure you enjoy yourself. Regardless of how many skills you have, you can offer more than you realise to this game and the people in it.
So put yourself out there and have some fun
Regards,
AK. |
Saatar Fora
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Posted - 2005.09.07 19:21:00 -
[20]
You don't need all your advanced to level five. Just take the ones that pertain to the area you want to train to level four and the rest to whatever level you can stand. That shouldn't take anymore than a month, and I can tell you that now that I've been here long enough and finally broke through 10 mil skillpoints... I still don't wish I'd spent the time bothering to train those to 5.
Training times become less and less shocking the longer you play, to the point almost that a long training time is nice, because you don't have to worry about changing the skill for a bit.
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Pestillence
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Posted - 2005.09.07 20:36:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pestillence on 07/09/2005 20:39:04
You preempted anybody disagreeing with you by calling them fools in your post already.
I'm all for an increase in the training speed of new characters for the first month or two.
Further than that, I'll just add, its the player, not the skillpoints. I know you don't want to hear that. It does not mean its not true or valid though.
Oh - and you want newbies to fight newbies? Make a corp and then find a comparable and like minded corp and make a mutual war dec.
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Magnum VII
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Posted - 2005.09.07 21:35:00 -
[22]
If you want to match the other top players in a game right away, then play a game like Unreal Tournament.
Besides I don't think I need to get all excited about having to match/be even with the TOP most players in the game.
You should be able to get out of a game what you put into it.
When you were born did you say it was unfair that how come you're not a CEO of a big company right now instead of being pimple faced kid 1st?
Why don't you try and worry about what youÆre doing now and having fun at it 1st and don't worry some day you will be a great CEO some day.
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Magnum VII
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Posted - 2005.09.07 21:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Captain Egghead
If CCP did somthing like this i can garantee even more new players would join.
Yeah right and then they would leave even quicker just like they leave all the other MMO's
Besides who says you have to PvP with some one's PC that is 3 years old anyways?
Just PvP with player PC of more equal grounds.
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Praetor Novak
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Posted - 2005.09.07 22:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Captain Egghead
Something seriously needs to be done about this. Logging into a game where you eventually figure out the only way you can ever match the other players is to stick around for 3 years or more. Most new players after finding it out will log out and not think twice about coming back.
Real life is unfair. So is EVE.
Titles of respect are earned not given.
Keep it real, CCP!
Any new players that decide to leave EVE because they cannot "catch up", well they can just... Yeeaaahhh... Uhhhmmmm...
Praetor Novak - CEO |
Fingalickin
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Posted - 2005.09.08 08:28:00 -
[25]
I see no more replies from Egghead - maybe got the message finally.
I agree with every comment here - Eve is what you want it to be and the opportunities are there to do anything you want WITH (The best option) or WITHOUT anyones help.
Keep it real
I'll be here, training away as long as CCP is here 
"Don't mess with the chicken! It Tastes sooooooo good!" |
Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.09.08 09:02:00 -
[26]
I think CCP has plans for some sort of arena, where new players could try PvP without any risk (or reward).
With an arena like that, CCP could also hold tournaments like frigate 1 tournaments for players with 3 months or less playtime.
Somehow I doubt its high on the prio list at CCP though, them seem more interested in pleasing the old timers (tech 2 BS, capital ships, outposts, etc).
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Kamigaze
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Posted - 2005.09.08 13:07:00 -
[27]
advanced learning skills to lvl 3-4 pay out after about 5 months playing.
Advanced learnings skills to lvl 5 pay out after about 3 year - 2 weeks training for only one Attribute point - you can easily calculate that!
if you have 9 attributs points and the skill takes 10 days, then 18 attribut points (9 start + 5 basic learning + 4 advanced learning) takes only the half time.
basic learning lvl4 to lvl5 takes about 6 to 8 days depending on you start attributes - if you start with basic and advanced intelligence and memory skill training, the other 3 skills will take about 2 - 3 days less. After finishing learning skills after about 6 to 8 weeks training all other skills need only the half time. So after two more month you have as much skill like without learings after 4 months.
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Batar Fireheart
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Posted - 2005.09.08 23:52:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Batar Fireheart on 08/09/2005 23:53:53
Originally by: Captain Egghead
Something seriously needs to be done about this. Logging into a game where you eventually figure out the only way you can ever match the other players is to stick around for 3 years or more. Most new players after finding it out will log out and not think twice about coming back.
New players should be able to pvp in higher sec space with no penalties (except flagging etc that happens in lower sec). At least then the game becomes more interesting for newer players.
Some fools are going to reply and say oh but that would make veteran players make alts and buy them all the best stuff and etc etc abuse bla bla. Will yes but at least the sp will be about the same. And if people are that pathetic then hey, what can you do.
At the moment the only way new players can pvp and stand a chance is in massive groups or with a corp, but some people dont want to join corps straight away or ever, some people dont want to have to be in big groups.
If CCP did somthing like this i can garantee even more new players would join.
I mean look at it this way, if i could play a game where i could grind up to high level and get some decent stuff to pvp with, even if it took me a few months, i would sure as hell do that over having to stay years to be equal to other people.
capt egghead I am a long time player and this my main character that i started with.. I can see where you are coming from on this point but eve is a universe where people are being born almost every day (new players) this is technically an online roleplaying game. pvp is a big part of part of the game. if you want to pvp sure character skills help but player experience and brains is a big part of it to.. I am well above the 20 mill sp point and i tell you losing ships is a big part of this game I have lost count of how many ships i have lost in this game but i tell you every single one was a learning experience. as far as balancing new characters well then i have to say tough who do you think forges the major alliances and keep them going.. not some noob i can tell ya.. who keeps the market running with tech2 and named loot... not the noobs.. I dont mean this as to smacktalk or anything like that. so do like everyone else and just set your skills and pick a field to learn at first. and find a corp that is willing to take in new players that will help them learn the game and find a role in eve that suits you for the time being..
"MAY YOUR WALLET BE FULL OF ISK AND YOUR CANNONS BLESSED" |
Fingalickin
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Posted - 2005.09.12 09:48:00 -
[29]
Totally agree, not only that, but where in RL or any game can you just jump in to a spaceship and fly perfectly straight away??
Any game, any RL skill takes time to learn, with something as complex as Eve, that means skills and skill training - for something this large and with the advice that's out there - Eve is as fair as you can get.
You'll never catch up the Veterans, but practice and one day you may beat them.
"Veterans aren't worth catching, practice pratice practice and one day you may BEAT them!" |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.09.12 11:49:00 -
[30]
Character skill means bugger all in EVE. The big alliances win through player skill. The best solo PVPers I know can beat people with twice their skill points easily. EVE is not a grind to max level.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
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