Wow... I'm shocked. Again.

It's been an interesting two weeks, hasn't it?

If that happens I'll be checking myself into medical, see if I'm suffering some kind of sustained hallucination. It'd be the only logical explanation.

Effective 00:00 Hours, YC113.04.06 [GMVA] Villore Accords is declaring an Alliance wide moratorium on offensive operations targeting System Sovereignty Infrastructure of Caldari held star systems in recognized Caldari regions of Black Rise and The Citadel.

To be clear: GMVA will not consider itself under obligation to Cease Fire in any theater of war. Offensive operations targeting Caldari Military Installations will continue, and any Caldari held star systems in recognized Gallente regions of Placid, Essence, or Verge Vendor will continue to be targets for liberation. We will continue to be vigilant in defending the liberty and livelihood of the many Gallente, Intaki and other Federation Citizens living throughout the warzone.
.

You Pyre types seem to be a little... jaded.

For peaceful negotiations to occur, someone has to take the first step.
As it is apparent it wasn't going to be you, I applaud Villore Accords for taking that step.
May it lead on to more having the honour and foresight to do the same.

You Pyre types seem to be a little... jaded.

For peaceful negotiations to occur, someone has to take the first step.
As it is apparent it wasn't going to be you, I applaud Villore Accords for taking that step.
May it lead on to more having the honour and foresight to do the same.

You Pyre types seem to be a little... jaded.

Laudable.

Earlier this week Citizens of every Empire in New Eden welcomed news of the unprecedented calling for the end of hostilities and establishment of a Demilitarized Zone on the planet of Caldari Prime.

Laudable.

Thank you!

You do not speak for 'citizens of every Empire.'

You speak for your little band of capsuleers.

It's because I don't get paid to participate in pointless nonsense such as this which translates effectively into, "We, the Villore Accords, having found ourselves wholly unable to establish control in the Enaluri system for the past month even after numerous massed daily atron waves will instead cite humanitarian and peaceful recourse as the explanation for continued abject failure to effect successful military operations in a system next door to our primary operations base in Nennamaila."

Some military experts might call this, trying to retreat with dignity and honour in the face of an enemy that unlike that font of strategic and tactical nous, Julianus Soter, can actually find success without throwing numbers at any and all problems on the frontlines.

To be clear: GMVA will not consider itself under obligation to Cease Fire in any theater of war. Offensive operations targeting Caldari Military Installations will continue, and any Caldari held star systems in recognized Gallente regions of Placid, Essence, or Verge Vendor will continue to be targets for liberation. We will continue to be vigilant in defending the liberty and livelihood of the many Gallente, Intaki and other Federation Citizens living throughout the warzone.

What episode was this?

Pilot Toluijin has the right of it. This is a first step, but it is a step we have made where others have not. Although I made the effort to bring this proposal to [GMVA] leadership for approval, I've seen similar suggestions made by Gallente and Caldari pilots alike. If the various Militia entities were to agree to withdraw behind their respective borders and limit their operations to the defense of their sovereignty it would certainly have an impact.

As for retreat from Enaluri, it would be remis of me not to acknowledge that Pyre Falcon and various others have been effective in defending that system. Much as LVLUP and JUSTK effectively defended Eha from sustained offensives by Evoke. It is not unheard of for small well organized units to be able to effectively employ harassment tactics in a system's defense. The difference here is that while Pyre Falcon is holding the fort in Enaluri, there is no Caldari offensive strength to threaten Gallente systems. As you have focused your efforts in that system, elsewhere the warzone has slipped from your grasp.

Shall we trust in your own peaceful intent that were we to cease keeping pressure on Enaluri that Pyre Falcon and others would not shift to an offensive role? I think not.

Hence:


Enaluri will continue to be very much within the theater of war. GMVA forces will continue their operations against hostile Caldari forces in that system and every other.

Oh, Rinai... I should have read more carefully, shouldn't I?

So you'll still be sending your pilots to Enaluri, a Caldari system. You'll still be engaging STPRO forces in Enaluri. You'll still be attacking 'State Military Facilities' there?

In other words nothing has changed. If you'd stated that you'd stay out of Caldari systems in the warzone and only engage our forces while passing through those systems if they jumped to you, then THAT would have been a worthy statement.

As of 19:00 there are 16 vulnerable Caldari held systems, and 18 more that are contested above 95%. All but a handful of those are in Caldari territory. From what I've seen there are no State Protectorate forces currently capable of either preventing those systems from being taken, or recapturing them once they fall.

We, on the other hand, are more than organized enough to flip those systems if we choose to do so. We are choosing instead to let them remain under Caldari jurisdiction. Would you prefer that it was otherwise? I rather think your CEO would, as it fits better with her attempts to spin the Gallente Federation as agressors in this conflict.

Cant we all just get along and have fun killing each other in space :).

Let the humans count their dead we will count our kills!

No need to take your space we just want fun.

We need to take baby steps towards your freedom and we cant allow for you take everything back right away. If things go well maybe some day Black Rise can once again be Caldari.

I look forward to continuing working with Caldari to work towards the freedom they well deserve from under their overlords in the squid empire.

Freedom for all.

Alot of fancy talk for thugs who still shoot down unarmed civilians just because they don't happen to be flying Gallente colors. Watched a non-Milita, unarmed Badger crack apart under a Catalyst's guns in Placid the other day. I am sure they would love to hear though about the cessation of IHub attacks in Caldari space though.

The Akidagi system is not vulnerable at the moment. I assure you that the skirmish at the infrastructure hub was incidental and not an effort to seize the system, which has no strategic value for space forces.

It saddens me, however, that the Caldari seem so embittered in their intolerance and mistrust of Gallente, that for the past several days they have berated our representative publicly, and made no effort to assist our efforts to maintain a territorial freeze, by reciprocating our gesture.

The GMVA will continue to analyze the Caldari State response and await a positive reply from your constituent corporations to our overtures to stem the bloodshed.

The militias themselves have horribly low standards of recruitment - much like your own organization - and will not punish offenders for piracy while enrolled in their ranks.

Also, for all you know the Badger in question could have been shot down for a variety of other reasons than base piracy. On the other hand, piracy and attacking random people is what your organization and the entity it supports DO. I smell a pot/kettle argument coming soon.

Actually, any member caught shooting a neutral industrial ship would be severely punished.

We have ways of enforcing our rules, after all.

The Akidagi system is not vulnerable at the moment. I assure you that the skirmish at the infrastructure hub was incidental and not an effort to seize the system, which has no strategic value for space forces.

It saddens me, however, that the Caldari seem so embittered in their intolerance and mistrust of Gallente, that for the past several days they have berated our representative publicly, and made no effort to assist our efforts to maintain a territorial freeze, by reciprocating our gesture.

The GMVA will continue to analyze the Caldari State response and await a positive reply from your constituent corporations to our overtures to stem the bloodshed.

Alot of fancy talk for thugs who still shoot down unarmed civilians just because they don't happen to be flying Gallente colors. Watched a non-Milita, unarmed Badger crack apart under a Catalyst's guns in Placid the other day. I am sure they would love to hear though about the cessation of IHub attacks in Caldari space though.

Here's a gesture for you to reiterate: mine. Pull all your forces back behind the YC 110 established sovereignty lines and surrender every system you've captured back to the State. Operate in an entirely defensive stance, defending Federal systems and not crossing them.

The only time I have ever crossed Federal lines is on my way to the Intaki system to provide support and supplies to them as I have a standing oath and contract of support for them.

Sansha moderates ?

I find it confusing. Are you still supporting Sansha Nation, the one following Kuvakei ?

We need to establish a dilog first and we offered a hand to you saying that GMVA would actively ask our pilots and corps not to flip any more of your systems unless its a major threat to our empire.

We cant control every member of GMVA as we are Gallente and value freedom more then anything, we cant all be wheels in the corporate machine like how the Caldari run things.

Yes. We are not moderates, we just do not shoot non-combat vessels that are neutral.

Our ROE is publically available and easily understandable.

This is precisely the point I was waiting for one of you to make. I have spoken with Rinai Vero regarding this little clause in your statement.

Allow me to point out to you why your gesture is hollow and meaningless. Here, you have stated "unless it is a major threat to our empire." You claim to hold on to the systems you've taken because "they are a threat" to your empire. You can, have and will use this as justification to take further systems. You advance into one system and suddenly another system is a threat because now it's the border.

First Nennamaila, then Enaluri, then Akidagi. Each successive "step" into our territory opens up new threats to your empire that must be captured to keep your people safe.

No. Your gesture is empty and hollow, your own words reveal that.



If you cannot control your members then you have no business calling yourselves leaders and this declaration is worthless as it cannot and will not be enforced.

How are you so sure they where neutral to us? Maybe we knew they where working with the Caldari to supply them weapons in the war-zone.

Also you should know there is no true neutrals in a war-zone. Its either friendly or an enemy. This is war and if they willingly enter a war-zone without choosing a side its their own fault for doing so. No one has forced them to enter the war-zone and its well know that if you do come to Black Rise you can get blown up. News agencies have been reporting this since the start of the war.

Also its not like we can kill pod pilots, we are all immortal, Im sure that pod pilot that lost his hauler is fine and back living in Highsec.

1. If they are flagged as neutral then they are neutral. We usually extend our ROEs to shooting neutral ships that enter Caldari State military complexes, but we wouldn't shoot a neutral flagged freighter on a gate or station and neither should you - otherwise your ROEs are basically NBSI - like most of the pirates that infest the warzone.

2. There ARE neutrals. All ships that are flagged as being a member of a friendly militia are FREINDLY. All ships that are flagged as being a member of a hostil militia are HOSTILE. You can add in some exceptions according to local diplomacy and, of course, the pirates that infest low security space - but if you consider a neutral flagged non-combatant to be Hostile then only one word describes you. That word is PIRATE.

3. Whilst the Pod pilot is fine, do you know how many baseliner crew serve aboard a large Industrial? 80% of those people are dead now.


Now, let's address your statement regarding GMVA's offer. You summed it up, essentially, as "We will ask our pilots not to target infrastructure hubs that are vulnerable, but we can't actually enforce this."

Congratulations, you've managed to water down water. With the shrugging admission that you can't enforce it and won't even try you've managed to make this the clusters first homeopathic peace treaty.

I think you have little understanding of Freedom and of a militia war. We aren't going to stop fighting with you because if we did pull back from the warzone, Im sure the Caldari would just start invading our highsec again and we would just look weak and possibly open up attack from others, like pirates or the Amarr, that would love to conquer our space highsec and lowsec.

We need to start a dialog first and for most. We are offering you a hand and your slapping it away saying "We don't want to talk unless you pull back" You have made no offers of trying to work out a dialog, you just keep saying we are just lieing to you which we aren't.

And this isn't a mandate to all who fight in this war. We just cant do that. Our militia men are free soilders working to stop you from taking all our feedoms away. We aren't like you Caldari who have an iron grip on all your members forcing them to do your bidding. We in Leadership value freedom more then anything. And this war isn't over and you have shown no signs of taking our offer of trying to work out a dialog.

Also remember we are Militia not the formal Military of the Gallente, we aren't in the army. So things work a bit different. The war is still going, so we are still fight as best we can. Welcome to a war of Militias where there isn't a direct chain of command to demand that all Gallete Militia Men stop taking space. Thats something for the empires to work out between themselves, we just want to help it along a bit. We just think its time to open up the discussion after the events of the DMZ and we just don't see the need to kick a dog while it down. But maybe you cant understand that :).

I believe I DID say 'with exceptions according to local diplomacy'. If he was a member of a hostile organisation then he was RED and nobody blames ANYONE for engaging Reds, do they?

But, let's cut the crap for a moment. He wasn't, was he?

You just said that you habitually engage all neutrals, regardless of status and situation. That makes you no better than a Pirate in my eyes.

You think I don't have an understanding of how a militia operates? You assert that you can't trust us not to invade but expect us to trust you in this openly empty declaration? Do you even...? You know what, never mind. I will not dignify this with further response.

Also who cares how many humans die theres like trillions of trillions of those things walking around. We are immortals and we are better then these silly humans.

This is precisely the point I was waiting for one of you to make. I have spoken with Rinai Vero regarding this little clause in your statement.

Allow me to point out to you why your gesture is hollow and meaningless. Here, you have stated "unless it is a major threat to our empire." You claim to hold on to the systems you've taken because "they are a threat" to your empire. You can, have and will use this as justification to take further systems. You advance into one system and suddenly another system is a threat because now it's the border.

First Nennamaila, then Enaluri, then Akidagi. Each successive "step" into our territory opens up new threats to your empire that must be captured to keep your people safe.

No. Your gesture is empty and hollow, your own words reveal that.

If you cannot control your members then you have no business calling yourselves leaders and this declaration is worthless as it cannot and will not be enforced.

Come now, do you truly lack that much understanding of the Gallente way of life? Or is this just another attempt to insult our efforts?

We do not control our members so completely because we do not seek to. Part of the very identity of the society that we fight to protect is protection of the rights of minorities and the individual. Those familiar with the history of the Villore Accord know that it was originally signed by little more than a loose compact of Gallente corporations intending to shield each other from War Declarations. As we have grown and changed, our Alliance is now much different and much better organized... but we still strive very much to represent and support a diverse variety of interests.

Some individual pilots may very well disagree with this moratorium. Hell, many pay so little attention to politics that they probably don't even know about it. Those pilots may join operations sanctioned outside GMVA leadership's influence. Many, like myself, feel strongly that this is the right thing to do and have striven to convince our brethren likewise. So, while there may be [GMVA] tickers sparsely distributed among pilots seeking territorial gain (our pilots do get about, after all) that should not be the sole factor by which one evaluates this policy.

Our Leadership and Fleet Command will not be planning, organizing, or supporting attacks on system infrastructure. Our logistics operations will not be supplying ships, ammunition, or other supplies to such operations as we do with other sanctioned strategic goals. If you think these factors are insignificant, then I begin to see part of why the Caldari militia is in the position it is.

You know Pilot Fallout that it's quite possible to operate in the war zone in particular and low sec space in general without targeting neutrals. EM has done so successfully for quite a few years while still protecting the Republic from hostile militia and criminals. Your attempts at justifying the attacking of neutral vessels, especially industrials, rings very hollow to me.

Also, last time I checked, you're still a flesh and blood human. You may be augmented by technology and your mind warped by a god complex but, still quite human, indeed. I recommend that you seek psychiatric help. Your last statement sounded dangerously close to psychopathy.

Allow me to interject. First, let me be clear that while this Moratorium is in effect we will not be making "exceptions," flipping some Caldari systems and not others. The terms have been stated, and will be abided by until such time as the Moratorium is publicly rescinded. At no time have I characterized the terms of this Moratorium in conversation with you or anyone else as subject to the kind of manipulation as you describe in regards to currently held Caldari territory.

[...]
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:27:20 ] Pieter Tuulinen > I suppose I got carried away by the Caldari Prime news and expected something dramatic. This announcement has brought me back to reality.
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:28:39 ] Rinai Vero > If we had called a unilateral cease fire, can any of the State Protectorate pilots here really claim that there wouldn't have been immediate offensives into Gallente territory?
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:29:10 ] Pieter Tuulinen > Personally speaking, I would have led offensives into Caldari territory.
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:29:12 ] Rinai Vero > As I said, we've not even fully retaken the systems lost after the most recent Caldari offensive.
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:29:49 ] Pieter Tuulinen > But GMVA has hardly made that their priority - most of your efforts have been Enaluri, Akidagi, Hallanen and similar systems.
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:31:49 ] Rinai Vero > I'd be violating the security of our communications if I were to prove it, but our priority following redeployment from conquering the warzone in January was defending Placid, and keeping the Caldari from retaking staging systems in Nenna and Eha.
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:32:19 ] Pieter Tuulinen > Why do I see you guys rolling in twenty or thirty deep into Enaluri DAILY then?
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:32:31 ] Rinai Vero > Caldari forces hardly limited themselves to Black Rise and The Citadel then.
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:33:02 ] Rinai Vero > Because Enaluri is and was a staging system for attacks throughout Placid?
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:33:16 ] Pieter Tuulinen > So, when is it enough?
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:33:38 ] Pieter Tuulinen > You hold Nenna because you claim it's a staging area. Now Enaluri is where we attack Nenna from?
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:33:38 ] Rinai Vero > I don't have the answer for that.
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:33:48 ] Malcolm Khross > Your justification is "because these systems are a danger to us, we'll make sure you don't have them." Which only leads to "now these systems are a danger to us, so we have to take them too."
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:34:01 ] Malcolm Khross > A half-assed defensive stance is utterly useless.
n++[ 2013.04.05 20:34:01 ] Rinai Vero > Aye.

Ms. Vero,

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding this, but your saying that your organization won't plan or aid in any further attacks, but at the same time you won't bring in the reigns on your substituent corps and pilots operating in the area if they on their own or with others continue to act with aggression?

If I may humbly ask, how it is you can expect the Caldari militia to take this in good faith if you telling them in the same breath that your organization will take no means to stop, prevent or even educate your member corporations in the matter of this memorandum? Its appalling that you acknowledge that your making this offer without all of your pilots knowing or even consenting to it. Saying that, while you don't sanction further aggression, you aren't going to stop them from acting outside of the agreement isn't really going to strike reason in the rest of the Caldari people, especially those operating in the war zone.

If your going to issue a statement on behalf of your alliance then your alliance members should be on board and honor that declaration. If they don't then they should be punished. Your organization may not seek to 'control' them but this isn't about control, its about unity. If you can't guarantee that they will follow this memorandum then you have no business appealing to the Caldari militia groups about a cease fire you can't and won't enforce.

I find it extremely disturbing how you seem to acknowledge their right to continue to behave in a way that is contrary to their greater organizations expressed interests and simply call it 'the Gallente way'. I understand about preserving rights and freedom, but not in this capacity.

Please note, this isn't a dig at your organization or an attack, but a vocalization of my understanding based on what you just said.

To reiterate, we will not seek to take Enaluri, Akidagi, or any other Caldari system under this Moratorium.
[...]
We do not control our members so completely because we do not seek to.
[...]
Some individual pilots may very well disagree with this moratorium. So, while there may be [GMVA] tickers sparsely distributed among pilots seeking territorial gain (our pilots do get about, after all) that should not be the sole factor by which one evaluates this policy.

That's some impressive hiring standards you got there Soter.

Empty words it is, then.

If you cannot control your members then you have no business calling yourselves leaders and this declaration is worthless as it cannot and will not be enforced.

Really?

I honored you for your integrity but it appears I was mistaken. You don't recall the following conversation, taken directly from a chat log involving you?

[Chat Logs]

I've emphasized the lines that are most relevant. So tell me again that you never once indicated in a conversation with me that your "moratorium" was subject to such "manipulation."

I've called your bluff with hard evidence.

To be clear: GMVA will not consider itself under obligation to Cease Fire in any theater of war. Offensive operations targeting Caldari Military Installations will continue, and any Caldari held star systems in recognized Gallente regions of Placid, Essence, or Verge Vendor will continue to be targets for liberation. We will continue to be vigilant in defending the liberty and livelihood of the many Gallente, Intaki and other Federation Citizens living throughout the warzone.

It seems you understood what you wanted to, not the point I was making. You've also conveniently left out context for those logs that would inform my interpretation of the statements. Either you missed that context originally, or you are willfully misrepresenting it now.

We draw a distinction between offensive operations against the Caldari Military, and operations seeking to control Caldari Territory.

I made clear from the beginning, and will repeat myself again here: We will conduct operations in Caldari space against State Military Installations and Outposts. We will not take "Enaluri, then Akidagi" or any other Caldari systems. Such moves will not be justified by "new threats to our empire that must be captured to keep our people safe."

This sort of thing can lead to peace. Good job.

Trust and such is another matter that comes as both sides sit down and begin to discuss.

Before that, the hostilities need to cease here, how can you talk of peace while spending your every other word insulting your counterpart?

Doesn't take trust to refrain from pointless point scoring hostility

You are of cource correct Msr. Marellus. It doesn't require trust, it requires respect. Unfortunately there seems to be an void in that between most bitter enemies, and again, its hard to take a foes word especially given the terms laid out. It would do the proposition a great service if the Villore Accords was speaking on behalf of its corporations and members at large and assuring that the deal would be followed through and violations would be punished.

Its hard to take them seriously when they refuse to punish individual members of their organization, and hard to blame the other side from being doubtful due to it.

You know what, Vero?

I will play the fool this once and accept that perhaps I am reading more into your declaration than is actually there and I will take it on faith that your alliance will do its best to enforce its directives without breaching its operational standards and principles.

It is quite possible I am judging you too harshly so I will withdraw and watch, truth is revealed to the observant.

This action by the Villore Accords, a private military contractor of the FDU, is merely nothing more than an empty gesture that achieves little since it is rather clear they are unable to actually enforce their position due to a lack of leadership, professionalism and discipline among its ranks. Do not discount Caldari as fools who will sell what we value cheaply for even cheaper words.

Rinai Vero, an authorized public relations representative on behalf of the Moira. Corporation and the Villore Accords as a whole, made a transmission to the IGS...

We did what we needed to do to protect Federation citizens and systems from another "reconquista" of the area. Any such success on the Caldari State's part would strength Tibus Heth's position and jeapardize nascent peace-making initiatives between the State and Federation.