...

I didn't noticed your last typhoon kill was a with a suicide smartbomb fit in July 2011 ... we are not playing the same game, sorry.

As concluson, i will engage and win of course.

yes.. tempest need both its bonuses to mattch the SINGLE bonus from the hyperion. Your attempt to put the hyperion as the victim in fact doubles back at you. The tempest is twice in disadvantage there.


Tempest currently is paying huge price of 2 bonuses of damage to achieve dps of 1 normal Battleship, a horrible slot layout and a mediocre drone bay to get what? A single extra high slot free for neutralizers . The neutralizer is cool. But the difference between 1 and 2 neutralizers is MUCH smaller than between 0 and 1. All the price that tempest pays for it is not worht it. And now that the mobility role has been stolen by attack BC and the neutralzier role has been stolen by the armageddon. .. now the tempest is paying a HUGE price.. to be mediocre on that role.


That role does not exist anymore. the tempest must receive the same treatment as the hyperion. Ignore for a moment the maelstrom exists. Why would a tempest not be justified to have 10% damage per level 7.5% shield boost per level.. move 1 high to a mid.. and gain 125m drone bay? before you say its overpowered.. pay attention. is EXACLTY what was done to the hyperion. It would be a mirror ship. IF that is not acceptable for the tempest.. then its not as well for the hyperion.


There are better options than that.. but the current layout is simply unable to provide a realistic role with an acceptable level of performance.

i quote my self here:

LOLfits obviously with meta-levels shifted around for fitting, but note high slot usage on the Megathron. Megathron outdamages the Tempest beyond neut range.

So can the Megathron... Replace Neutron Blasters with 425mm Rails loaded with Faction antimatter and you have something that out damages the Tempest (650dps 36+30km vs 590dps 7+47km) at most possible ranges outside of web range... Whilst still fitted with 2 neuts... Sure, not quite the tracking of 800mm's but you'll be hitting battleship fodder OK with decent piloting. The Tempest won't even be capable of fitting 1200mm's without dropping all the nuets and the injector.

And at that range +30km, remind me why you'd want that extra utility high slots again? I mean, if you're worried about things getting under your guns, the megathron is a superior choice. Are you even arguing that the Tempest compared to even the Megathron is OK? Or are you just wanting a little insight into why we all think it's bad?

If you haven't noticed, the mega has 7 turrets and is losing the utility, that eft battle wasn't a good example since with the changes the ships aren't meant to be fit the same, as for long range, why would a snipee pest even need a heavy neut? It's going to be far outside it's effective range. And there isn't even a single gyro on the pest though you stack two on the mega, how do they stack when the mega is using, tes to try to match the pest's range.

If you haven't noticed, the mega has 7 turrets and is losing the utility, that eft battle wasn't a good example since with the changes the ships aren't meant to be fit the same, as for long range, why would a snipee pest even need a heavy neut? It's going to be far outside it's effective range. And there isn't even a single gyro on the pest though you stack two on the mega, how do they stack when the mega is using, tes to try to match the pest's range.

Well the above proposal simply bring the Tempest into line with the other Minmatar ships. At the moment gallente is looking very good to me so I don't think the mega needs its drones back personally. The Tempest is probably the weakest minmatar BS right now as you can see, even with the rate of fire increase in the hull proposed above it is only just bringing into line with the rest.

If by outclassed you actually mean, is faster, more agile, has the same ehp, the choice to do more dps in or outside of web range or more dps inside of neut range with a comparative fit, then yes the megathron is outclassed (lol, no)


I want a 7/6/6 slot layout - call the tempest the new ad-hoc distruption ship with the ability to brawl with good damage projection with shields when required. The only advantage it has over the megathron is the spare mid - which isn't that much considering the number of 5 mid armour tanking battleships there are now.

I'm looking at it from a Minmatar players perspective and considering why we would choose one ship over another. I've got nothing against giving the Raven further buffs if that is what is required though. One thing I don't like is that the Typhoon has become a better missile boat than the Raven so I wouldn't mind that being addressed in some way.

No it doe snot have a lower base tank. MEga got much more HP on the structure. the same spread that minamtar and gallente always had. And no structure HP are nto useless. because they are guanranteed to be 60% resistance.

Yeah - @ Fronkfurter McSheebleton - you said, "a bit ridiculous for a non gallente/amarr" - you are talking about racial strengths? So why then does the Gallente attack battleship have smaller sig, better agility and more speed than the Minmatar attack Battleship , (which I thought were Minmatar racial strengths). If that gets sorted then fine take away our drones - otherwise racial traits don't really exist anymore and the argument is moot.

This is a game. At the end of the day having Drones on the Typhoon was fun. You play games to have fun. This just sucks.

After reading through all of this and the other Odessey/Tiericide threads recently. . . I'm starting to think there are two distinct threads going on. I try to stay up-beat. But Tiericide seems to be tending to make all the ships very similar - seems to be making all the racial differences more subtle or removing them.

I am terrified of what's going to happen to the RF Typhoon.

Not common although. Most common setups will have a ex hole quite lower than 60% resist. So at the end its balanced. Mega has a better tank when you can afford only 2-3.. modules for tank . while tempest gets a bit stronger if you use 5 modules for tank. With 4 modules is about even

I guess you're starting to clutch at straws when your hypothetical 1v1 scenario assumes that the slower ship would be able to build up enough enough transversal to make it's 5-6% signature radius advantage matter against a ship with a 50% tracking advantage. Or when you say structure HP doesn't matter in 1v1 scenarios (lol)

The +500 powergrid the tempest received IS INCLUDED IN THIS BUILD OF ETF - so quit complaining that i'm missing out the secret factor that is deliberately making the Tempest appeared underpowered. Sure, with 2 damage mods, a 6 turret tempest does slightly more dps than a 5 turret 2 damage mod megathron in dps at point blank range - and so what? These are terrible, unrealistic builds - the point of them wasn't to show you how in 1v1 unicorn land, one would win against the other - it was to provide an objective basis to compare the supposed *strengths* of one ship in context of other battleships. Even Rebecha Pucontis is starting to rub the wool out of her eyes in this regard.

In most common setups, however that isn't always the case since that explosive hole can easily be filled by EANMs with proper skills. Yes it can tank well when comparing total ehp, but without it's higher amount of low slots it would need rigs to tank as much as the pest can without rigs in armor.

Tempest Hp without ANY module 21100 Mega 20300 . 800 difference.

GIven that DC II pushes resistance so easily to 60% resistance. And that is more than the average resistance of armro when you have EANM and DC.. this is a VERY close HP pool. Remember that haklf of the tempest advantage is in a layer that it will NOT be tanked with resist improvments.

That means the difference effectibvely is much smaller. Just fit the ships and check.

Forever ignorant

You forgot to add explosive damage and cap usage and and and...

Seriously, it's getting pathetic now.

The previous tempest without DCU II's as 67918 EHP, megathron 79,988 EHP, the tempest has 250 more armour EHP (+1%), but much lower resists against the other (therm/kin, vs explosive) And its still slower.

Chart.

Red = 5x Neutron Blasters, 2x MFS - Megathron
Green = 6x 800mm autocannons, 1x Gyro, Tracking Computer/Optical Range - Tempest
Blue = 5x 425mm rails, 2x MFS - Megathron

Top graph, 0 transversal
Bottom graph, 153m transferal - megathron


Within 20km, you doing better dps with a neutron blasterthron (ignoring ehp) off with a megathron doing what an armour tanking tempest is apparently designed to do. Beyond that range, you're better with 425mm rails and antimatter, before even looking at ehp or speed.

Dude now you are trying to say PVP shisp shoudl not fit DC II? You realize how that makes autoamtically everythign you post about ship balance irrlevant and 100% ignored from now on?

*slow claps* Drake Doe for suddenly realising that 1v1 comparisons are dumb. I did an objective comparison to prevent the "waaaaaaaaaa, that's not how you fit tha..." but I suppose there will always be one.

The fundamental point is that the tempest is really limited, and has no performance envelope where it excels, that this is bad, and needs to be fixed. Especially as a armour tanker, it's pathetic. It gets even worse when we compare it with new sentry domies or pulse lasers or even just a megathron or hyperion (because despite the combat/attack bulls.hit the hyperion is almost as quick) using 6 turrets instead of 5!

And yes, you've seen the actual *strength* of the tempest, but in the wider context, it isn't much, especially considering the sacrifices.

I responded (foolishly in retrospect) to your plea to compare the tempest with megathron - given that a typically fit blaster mega out damaged the tempest so severely with 7 turrets, I decided to see what would happen if I replaced a few with neuts... low and behold, it still did more damage, was faster, etc etc.

I overestimated your ability to see at just exactly what I was getting at, to see what apples vs apples looked like and extrapolate what would happen with different fits, you brought meaningless 1v1 examples like sig radius or armour ehp and thus descended down to this mess!

And just incase that wasn't a typo, the tempest would never lose a low slot for a mid AND a low.

I'm saying that yoy should look at the ARMOR difference not the total ehp because it makes a bigger difference when you can get your resists over 60, or do you perfer hull tanking?

But because you've got less slots for tanking, you've got lower resists anyway.

AND re: signature - +50% tracking (blasters/autocannons) > +5% signature

I do not want AC to outdps lasers or blasters in their ROle. Just statign that its FAKE advantage that peopel say the tempest have oevr blaster boats. And taht the ship need another REAL role, since the fantasy of tempest beign a great damage projection ship is just a fantasy.

being second everywhere is the recepy for FAILURE in this game. IT could not be IF the tempest was faster than any gallente or ammar boat so that It coudl decide the range... but Nooo megatron is faster.... hyperion is faster (with MWD overheated)....

Tempest need to be FASTER and weight LESS than megatron otherwise it wil be utterly outclassed (specially when you bring in the drones difference as well)

Phoon looks efficient but not minmatar.

If you want to kill its ability to use 3 weapon systems, at least leave it with two and not one. Give its drones back.

Maybe 125/125 so it has to make a choice between versatility and full dps, or else it would be a bit OP.

Edit:

Cyclone has been given full bandwidth, 50/50.
Same on Typhoon would allow for some versatility, either full dps or medium and spares.

The turrets are a joke (unbonused, with only one utility high...).

Ye, shieldmodules require less PG, so you can easily fit artillery. Also, a shieldhyperion can currently fit 8 425mm t2-rails without any issue. What is the problem again?

typhoon look fine
mael look fine
tempest its too damn slow CCP whats the idea making the mega faster than the pest?

lol what?

So it works for what it is kind of intended for (with 5 mids), but it has less PG than armortanking ships? It used to have (almost) the exact same PG as a megathron. It just needed you to fit to many turrets, that's getting fixed. Remember that in the future, the abaddon has to support 8 guns, the rokh has 8 guns, the mael has 8 guns, the hyperion has 6 guns (and a 10% bonus). Under those circumstances, all seems to be pretty nice :)

since when the drone bay is a defining factor for ship speed, what matter is dsp and dps projection if that dps come from turrets drones or missile its not so important if CCP give the mega back the dmg (not rof) bonus and the 125m dronebay to the mega im totally happy )but probably i would consider it a nerf) but with that dps and that speed the mega its just straight better than the pest

After seeing the dominix changes I came here fearing the worse and sure enough the phoon has gotten ****** ... Amarr is now the superior drone users...

I've never seen the typhoon used for DD.... it has no tank and fights by fighting ships out of their range...

If anything I think artillery is better suited to how it fight - it's good for it's instantaneous damage from afar