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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
533
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Posted - 2013.04.09 12:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think the changes look really nice.
The Tempest gains some much needed durability, and the Typhoon looks awesome (certainly fast enough for an oldskool nanophoon)
-áwww.promsrage.com |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
558
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Posted - 2013.04.11 17:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
The previous Tempest iteration was better than what's up here now.
The people complaining about the signature radius are high.
Now the ship is woefully inadequate compared to every other BS.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
559
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Posted - 2013.04.12 00:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:The previous Tempest iteration was better than what's up here now.
The people complaining about the signature radius are high.
Now the ship is woefully inadequate compared to every other BS. You are the one high. The 2 secodns extra that other battleships take to lock a tempest provide WAY more Effective hitpoints thatn the little bit it lost. Its very adequate for qhen you want to oerate in an attack role, kill somethign and get out. Very minmatar and much more interesting that simply having more HP taht is a role the tempest would ALWAYS loose to the abaddon.
Those two extra seconds mean very very little when you're damage AND tank is lower than the competition by a fair bit.
None of the battleships are really so cap insecure that dual heavy neuts will make up for the ships lack of dps or hitpoints.
The only thing this ship does is a half-baked nano attempt 
You've basically just talked yourselves out of a decent armor tanking Tempest, all because you like to think the Tempest is a fast kitey ship with a small sig.
Within your own race you're being outperformed:
For long range the Maelstrom is better.
For nanoing the Typhoon is better.
For brawling either the Typhoon OR Mael do a better job.
For mobile pot shots where you aren't taking any damage, the Tornado is better.
Once you start bringing in the other races, you're even further up **** creek.
Keep in mind that the Megathron is BARELY larger (20m3), quicker and more agile, despite being plated up.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
561
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Posted - 2013.04.12 18:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:The previous Tempest iteration was better than what's up here now.
The people complaining about the signature radius are high.
Now the ship is woefully inadequate compared to every other BS. You are the one high. The 2 secodns extra that other battleships take to lock a tempest provide WAY more Effective hitpoints thatn the little bit it lost. Its very adequate for qhen you want to oerate in an attack role, kill somethign and get out. Very minmatar and much more interesting that simply having more HP taht is a role the tempest would ALWAYS loose to the abaddon. Those two extra seconds mean very very little when you're damage AND tank is lower than the competition by a fair bit. None of the battleships are really so cap insecure that dual heavy neuts will make up for the ships lack of dps or hitpoints. The only thing this ship does is a half-baked nano attempt You've basically just talked yourselves out of a decent armor tanking Tempest, all because you like to think the Tempest is a fast kitey ship with a small sig. Within your own race you're being outperformed: For long range the Maelstrom is better. For nanoing the Typhoon is better. For brawling either the Typhoon OR Mael do a better job. For mobile pot shots where you aren't taking any damage, the Tornado is better. Once you start bringing in the other races, you're even further up **** creek. Keep in mind that the Megathron is BARELY larger (20m3), quicker and more agile, despite being plated up. Not the mention the amount of hate for the new Typhoon. Sure I love split weapon systems, and there was nothing really wrong with the old Phoon. HOWEVER, the new one is a better ship. You people ARE aware how much that ship is going to hurt right? You're also aware of how bloody fast / agile it is right? Rise is giving you guys awesome Minmatar ships on a silver platter, and you're collectively taking a dump on it because you'd prefer the race to be inferior. You are really bad at math and how a combat works. Imagine that 2 of the original tempest with 1200 extra HP fight 2 abaddons with pulses. Then same thign with the new proposal.. The smaller tempests take almsot 2 seconds more to be locked. That roughly equates to 1800-1900 damage sabved only there. Then the bad tracking pulses will miss a few shots from the large tempest, but MANY more from the smaller ones. At end the less HP tempest have way more effective defense than the original version. The larger the opposing force, the larger the smaller tempest advantage will be. new tempest is much better. The new tempest just need a tiny bit more speed to match Megathron speed.
Because Tempests have great tracking, and the new Apocs and Domis don't shred them right?
If you're sitting still, you're an easy target. If you're mwding around, you're an easy target.
If you're shooting a ship that has sentries deployed, lock time is negated because sentries shoot back right away.
There is only 1 situation where a Tempest works better than a Typhoon, and that's plinking small tackle from 40-50km away.
If you don't have missile skills to use the Typhoon, well yea that's a ****** deal, but at the same time, Minmatar have been a split race since day on. That's like complaining you didn't traing T2 heavy/sentry drones since the Dominix lost its hybrid bonus.
As for wanting your "versatility" back on the Typhoon...
You folks make it sound like you ran both missiles AND ACs on your Typhoons.
But if that were the case, you'd be embracing its changes, because you've already got missile skills and the now the ship is better! If that ISN'T the case, and you DON'T have missile skills, the Tempest has always been the better of the two.
The Phoon loosing its extra heavy drones does suck a little bit overall, but at the end of the day it's not a drone ship and Minmatar is not a drone race.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
562
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
That's below 110k ehp, and while it DOES do competitive damage, you're now 100% fixed to a passive armor setup. The Typhoon is clearly the superior ship, made even more obvious as soon as you try to put a rep or something on it.
The previously suggested Tempest stats were much nicer. Sure it was a little bit bigger, but it also had hitpoints similar to that of the other races. A slightly smaller sig is not worth losing 20-30k ehp.
I say keep the slot layout as it is now, but give it the stats that were originally proposed.
Hell, keep the stupid sig if it appeases the masses, it won't be a big deal.
IDEALLY Id like to see the Tempest be a 748 arrangement, but I think the nanofools will cry foul even moreso.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
562
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Also you don't seem to realise how signature radius works.
You're aware that I'm the person who pushed for sig-related bonuses on the AFs, right?
I'm very very much aware of how signature radius works 
Fact of the matter if a battleship is MWDing, any weapons will track and hit it. They aren't that small or fast.
The only situation where small battleship signature is nice, is when it comes to getting bombed.
If it's webbed, the ship isn't small/fast enough to get under BS-sized tracking (for closerange weapons) without ruining its own damage output. The lock-speed argument IS valid to an extent, but that would have to mean that the Tempest has either a damage (application/projection) or tanking advantage. The Tempest has neither of those. The first strike advantage is negated as soon as the other BS get a lock, because they all have either a damage, range, or tanking advantage that supersede it.
That fact is further bolstered by the Maelstrom & Typhoon, which outperform the Tempest when it comes to just about everything.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
563
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Posted - 2013.04.12 22:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
I very rarely see AB fit battleships in combat.
Yes that mitigates some damage, but the Tempest doesn't have a tracking bonus or the best range. By keeping transversal up you're ruining your own damage output. The only way around this, is a shield tank, which increases your signature and decreases your total HP (aka any hope of fighting other BS).
Nowadays, a Raven with torpedoes and an unbonused TP is still doing more damage to an unwebbed afterburning Tempest than a standard dual gyro Tempest. This remains true until you get out of torpedo range. Even a cruise Raven, while doing slightly less dps, is more useful because it has such obscene range which means constant damage. And that damage mitigation is negated when you start adding multiple ships w/ target painters.
The same applies when trying to argue against ANY of the other Battleships, without them using drones, and with MAXIMUM potential transversal. If you want to include a sentry Dominix or Armageddon, they hit Tempests just as well.
And of course, up close, all of that signature and ab tank is totally negated unless you're fighting a battleship that isn't aided by a web (either its own or otherwise). So you see, there isn't a situation where a *kiting* Tempest would have the upper hand against other battleships.
As for people complaining and begging Rise to retract his changes, that's simply a dev doing his job.
Those same people are working in the realm of TODAYS ships where the Tempest may be viable on some level.
With all the new ship changes, the Tempest as it stands, becomes nothing more than a cool looking ship and a base for which the faction version can be built..
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
563
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Posted - 2013.04.12 23:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Tempest shouldn't get a smaller signature than what was already proposed.
The reasoning is that if you go much smaller, you're entering Battlcruiser territory.
For example; A Drake is around 380, and Shield Cane is around 340. The Typhoon is already at that level (330), so that's already something that needs to be observed carefully.
It doesn't really matter if you think the ships current proposed HP is *fine*, because once you've factored in everything else, ti's quite poor. I don't have a problem with the ships slot layout, and I was a big fan of the Mega (initially) sharing it. You can keep the signature and but IMO it needs to get that extra bit of base hitpoints back.
The current proposition is:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+46) / 7300(+1089) / 6800(+259)
The original proposition was this:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7800(+846) / 7800(+1589) / 7100(+459)
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
564
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Posted - 2013.04.13 00:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
The Typhoon is lower as a base, yes, but it also has an extra low slot (greater armor tank).
So despite having less armor to start off with, its a higher damage ship (torps+heavies) with more low slots.
On top of it all, THAT ship has absurd enough speed, damage projection, and signature to make its nanoing capability worthwhile. It's basically a fat battlecruiser, or a really high dps Drake.
The levels I posted were the initial amounts that Rise proposed. They aren't my numbers, they are what CCP wanted.
The were reduced (along with signature) because the collective was complaining that it wasn't a crappy 6 mid shield tanker.
However, now you've got a vastly under performing ship. The higher HP gives it a chance to compete.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
568
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Posted - 2013.04.13 16:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:The Typhoon is lower as a base, yes, but it also has an extra low slot (greater armor tank).
So despite having less armor to start off with, its a higher damage ship (torps+heavies) with more low slots.
On top of it all, THAT ship has absurd enough speed, damage projection, and signature to make its nanoing capability worthwhile. It's basically a fat battlecruiser, or a really high dps Drake. On one hand you are saying the typhoon is able to nano and has absurd speed, yet the tempest has only 20 extra signature radius, and only 10m/s slower, yet your saying it is useless. Why not argue to bring the Tempest to the Typhoon levels then if that is what you believe. It sounds to me as though you have your mind set on making the Tempest a heavy combat ship where it will always be outclassed by the maeltrom. Prometheus Exenthal wrote: The were reduced (along with signature) because the collective was complaining that it wasn't a crappy 6 mid shield tanker. I don't recall many people complaining it wasn't a shield tanker. There have been a couple asking for an extra mid, or an extra low, which tells me that the slot layout is just about right.
People have been requesting an extra mid for better shield-tanking & nanoing about. There's no other reason to ask for one when your ships already got 5 
The base speed between the Typhoon & Tempest may be close, but the difference between the two of them is pretty huge. The reason? Agility & Mass. The Tempest is a fat brick compared to the Typhoon.
As for Minmatar not getting their 5 heavies anymore. Think of it this way, you're still better off than Caldari
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
568
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Posted - 2013.04.13 16:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Like I said before, I have no problem with the slot layout.
And the difference in agility is quite large. The Typhoon is a full second faster.
To put that into perspective, you can fit up a Typhoon for maximum potential armor buffer and still be faster to align than a completely unfit Tempest.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing (it isn't), but that you've got a bit of a false impression of the Tempest.
Most new players (from the last couple years) will have no knowledge of nano-phoons from back in the day, but the fact is that the Typhoon has always been smaller, faster, and more agile than the Tempest.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
568
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Posted - 2013.04.13 16:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
And we've come full circle.
Keep the slot layout, keep the sig/speed, & give the Tempest its previously suggested HP increase.
There's no way it will be OP, and the ship won't be pigeonholed into a shield/armor role.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
568
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Posted - 2013.04.13 18:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pretty much. It seems high until you notice that the slot layout is what limits the ships ability to tank AND do damage.
It looks up to par to me, and suddenly looks like competition for the Amarr lineup
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
568
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Posted - 2013.04.13 22:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
For starters, I get the vibe that only the drone races are getting 5 heavies now. There are no Minmatar or Caldari spec ships that can run then (not including faction). I don't think an extra 100dps (maximum) from 5 heavies would make as big a difference as you'd think, and 4 unbonused heavies are barely a gain over a 221 configuration.
The ships weakness is in tanking potential.
Sunuva Gunn wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Hmm, interesting idea actually. Perhaps then it could take over the current role of the Typhoon pretty nicely whilst the typhoon focuses on missiles.
Where has this sudden belief that we have to have missile ships everywhere come from? Are we Caldariatars or something?
The Tempest has had 4 missile hardpoints since the beginning of time.
People simply don't use the extra highs as torps.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
568
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Posted - 2013.04.14 14:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Another option would always be to give tempest antoher 600 PG and give it a 7th turret slot. After all an ATTACK battleship with 2 of its bonuses focuse don damage.. deserves to be deadly :P I woudl not evne care if its badnwidth was reduced to 25 m to compensate.
But the previous post ide is not bad as well.
The Tempest already has a full rack of weapons. Players using the last two slots for things other than missiles is not the fault of the developers. MInmatar have always been a split weapon race.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
568
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Posted - 2013.04.14 16:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pesadel0 wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Another option would always be to give tempest antoher 600 PG and give it a 7th turret slot. After all an ATTACK battleship with 2 of its bonuses focuse don damage.. deserves to be deadly :P I woudl not evne care if its badnwidth was reduced to 25 m to compensate.
But the previous post ide is not bad as well. The Tempest already has a full rack of weapons. Players using the last two slots for things other than missiles is not the fault of the developers. MInmatar have always been a split weapon race. yeah agreed tempest dhould be 4 turrets 4 missile turrets.
That would be a Typhoon.
6 mid slots = ****** shield tank.
Just saying.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
569
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Posted - 2013.04.14 23:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:A 5 mid slot shield tank is terrible, 6 mid slot shield tank is viable. Given that you'll have 6 lows to play with, (which could be used for nanos/overdrives/TE's/etc etc) it gives it something different over the other 6 mid slot shield tanker...
I'd certainly argue the extra mid slot +drones adds more than that extra high slot, especially outside of 1v1 land.
Neither is 6 when you have no inherit resists, or shield-biased hp, and rely on mobility to make up for that ****** excuse for a tank
You're looking at mid-90k hp if ALL mids/rigs are dedicated shield tanking (except propulsion & tackle). Active tanked, it's not really better than the 5mid setup because you don't have the cpu. If you WANT the cpu, you're now losing your desired dps, speed or tracking. It's a no win situation either way you look at it. At the end of the day, you're better off in a Maelstrom.
An armor tank is still superior with 6 lows, but would now be ridiculous with an EXTRA ewar slot in the mids.
The Scorpion only has 8 slots and it needs to do EVERYTHING with them.
If people were up in arms about 5 mid shield tanking frigates (hookbill/hawk), then they'd better burn down Jita for an unprecedented 6mid armor-biased battleship.
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