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Deadzone	Posted - 2005.09.15 19:44:00 - [1] I know has been said about the Cerberus and lack of firepower compared to all the other HAC's. Hell, both caldari HACs compared to the rest. Cerberus in specific though( as this is the one I know the best) really needs a 6th launcher slot and prob a little bit of a PG upgrade. Caracal has 5 launcher slots and this ship is the T2 version. I believe a 6th is in order. It will also give it an increase in DOT and bringing it closer to other HACs but alas it will still be lower than the others. I know a lot of other Cerberus pilots have broght up the same points. So it's not an isolated thought. And since the Dev team is changing ship stats/tweaking them, now is a good time to speak up folks. Deadzone Vice-Admiral Executive Commanding Officer Military Command Phoenix Propulsion Laboratories
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.15 19:50:00 - [2] 5 launchers on the cerberus is fine, it doesn't need more grid or cpu or anything, it just needs a 5% damage bonus to all missiles. That flight time bonus is pretty useless too. Cerberus really isn't horrible, its bonuses are just crap, and it's lacking tech2 stuff, like ballistic controls. ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
Layrex	Posted - 2005.09.15 19:55:00 - [3] The Cerb is a long range, fleet ship. So it needs the flight time bonus. I wonder if you people even fly them? Or know how to fly them? ------------------------------
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:01:00 - [4] Originally by: Layrex The Cerb is a long range, fleet ship. So it needs the flight time bonus. I wonder if you people even fly them? Or know how to fly them? Uh, I fly a Cerberus, in fact it's the only ship I really use right now. The flight time bonus is not useful. Heavy Missiles go 8662.5m/s with missile projection 5. With Missile Bombardment, Heavy Missile Flight Time is 15 seconds. Without the Cerberus flight time bonus, the range of a heavy missile is 130KM IS THAT NOT ENOUGH RANGE FOR YOU SIR? Why do I need a bonus to extend that? That is well beyond my targetting range.. ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
Layrex	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:24:00 - [5] Lol I stand corrected. Never took into account how much range you get when you get 5. You're right the bonus must be useless once you get high missle skills. ------------------------------
xenorx	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:24:00 - [6] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Layrex The Cerb is a long range, fleet ship. So it needs the flight time bonus. I wonder if you people even fly them? Or know how to fly them? Uh, I fly a Cerberus, in fact it's the only ship I really use right now. The flight time bonus is not useful. Heavy Missiles go 8662.5m/s with missile projection 5. With Missile Bombardment, Heavy Missile Flight Time is 15 seconds. Without the Cerberus flight time bonus, the range of a heavy missile is 130KM IS THAT NOT ENOUGH RANGE FOR YOU SIR? Why do I need a bonus to extend that? That is well beyond my targetting range.. Exactly! That also gives the target 15 seconds to warp away before the first volley hits. It needs a 6th launcher slot and at a minimum 5% bonus to all missile type damages. Personally I think it needs a 10% damage bonus to really bring it in line with the other races but would be happy with 5%. Oh and yes. I do have the ship. I fly it sometimes for the looks but my other HAC's are better.
Nadec Ascand	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:27:00 - [7] Well given the fact i only have bombardement and evry new skill to 4 not 5 i would say i love thoose bonus yeah a 6th missile slot would have been of great use too... But actually its a fantastic ship for long range... and thats what it should be Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron... Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:33:00 - [8] Assuming Max Skill 130km without the bonus and 173km with it, honestly it's a 40km difference and already well outside the practical range of the Cerberus. Cerberus is nice 60-80km, past that its overkill tbh.. ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
Tovarishch	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:43:00 - [9] Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/09/2005 20:49:01 A sixth launcher slot would be overkill... it doesn't need one. It also does not need more grid or CPU. With skills and proper fitting it can be fit with some very solid gear. What it DOES need are better bonuses. The flight time bonus is garbage... and a bonus to only kinetic damage is nearly as bad. Edit - Yes, it's DOT is low... but that is due to launchers being too slow and small targets taking far less damage than is balanced. With a tweak to launchers (especially t2 launchers, which are a joke at the moment) and a small tweak to the missile calculations regarding damage to small targets... DOT will be fine. The fact that this HAC has no drone bay and still has the lowest DOT/DPS is beyond my comprehension. It's almost as if they gimped the ship intentionally.
Denrace	Posted - 2005.09.15 22:17:00 - [10] Edited by: Denrace on 15/09/2005 22:18:18 Yeah i fly Cerby too, its DOT is pretty bad. As in, godawfully dreadful. I wonder what the devs think on this topic, it would be logical to hear how THEY think this ship is balanced compared to other HACs. The thing that ticks me off the most with caldari HACs is that each race other than Caldari has a HAC for 2 completely different roles: AMARR: Sacrilege - Tanking/Heavy Tackler Zealot - Damage Dealer GALLENTE: Deimos - Damage Dealer Ishtar - Drone Carrier MINMATAR: Muninn - Damage Dealer Vagabond - Extremely Fast Tackler/Attacker CALDARI: Eagle - Long-range Cerberus - Long-range As you can see, Caldari HACs seem pretty limited in scope... It would be far more appropriate to: 1. Change the Eagles shield Boost Bonus to another 5% Damage bonus, or a 5% to ALL shield Resistance Bonus 2. Make the Cerberus a close range damage dealer to rival the Muninn/Deimos/Zealot. This could be done by: 2a. Change the bonuses to: Cruiser Bonus: 5% Bonus to all Heavy Missile Damage, 10% Bonus to Missile Launcher RoF HAC Bonus: 5% Bonus to all Heavy Missile Damage, 5% Bonus to Missile Velocity And change the slots to 5/5/5, and keep the drone bay at zero. Hows this? ____________________________________________ Sacrilege > Everything
PAPA	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:13:00 - [11] Erm no
Sorja	Posted - 2005.09.16 02:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Layrex The Cerb is a long range, fleet ship. Dude... can you please explain to me what use is your 'long range' thingie when you uncloak at a gate and have to engage combat? Are there only snipers left in EVE? Now, ok, I take my pills (special bulk prices for Caldari since Cold War...) and think... ok, if you fly a turret ship with long range weapons and are engaged in combat at a gate, you face the same troubles, right? Wrong. Turrets have the opportunity to fit short or long range weaponry and even long range weaponry can be effective at short range, depending of the target's size and if you have a webber or not. What is the short range weaponry for heavy missiles please? Cerberus versatility: zero Cerberus survivability: zero Cerberus damage output: pathetic Scrap that thing and design a new ship, it will save these forums the same thread over and over again. Kill mails
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.16 03:31:00 - [13] It would be cool if cruisers had a short range, heavier warhead missile, like battleships get. Does a rocket launcher out DPS a standard launcher? I know assault launchers are pretty much pathetic, 33% less DPS I think.. ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.09.16 03:43:00 - [14] "It would be cool if cruisers had a short range, heavier warhead missile, like battleships get. Does a rocket launcher out DPS a standard launcher?" Yup; ~15% more damage with rockets than with standard missiles. I asked earlier for some sort of module for that (low slot, i guess) which would modify stats of fired missiles, giving like, 20% more damage for 75% reduction in flight time. This way heavy missiles could be switched between long range/weak damage, medium range/medium damage and short range/high damage ... depending on ship setup. And onlining/offlining these mods would give similar effect like switching ammo for guns (the bonus of no extra space consumed by different ammo types is balanced by the whole onlining process being pain in the rear)
Zaintiraris	Posted - 2005.09.16 06:32:00 - [15] Keep hope alive! --- Originally by: CCP Hammer This game was so much better back before people knew math.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.16 14:01:00 - [16] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 16/09/2005 14:03:14 Idea.. switch flight time bonus with +5% all missile damage, that would give a double kinetic damage bonus, and decent missile damage for all other missile types while preserving the 'racial' kinetic damage. This is being done for the Kestrel but at the cost of the ROF bonus, but I think the Cerberus would really blow without the ROF bonus so maybe this would help the ship a lot. I mean if the Cerberus can't deal good damage what good is it to be honest? Now you might think this would be overpowered but to be honest, it's really not. Cerberus has no drone bay so it gets no extra DPS from that. It's not a good ship for tanking, because quite frankly it has no capacitor to speak of. Using standard tech2 modules and good skills is really only a 200-250dps using kinetic heavys with four ballistic control (which gives you huge CPU problems by the way) ship right now at most.. Right now without REALLY good skills and REALLY good modules it can't even bust through a modest armor tank, so a damage increase via a decent bonus instead of that crappy flight time bonus would be nice. :) ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
Sorja	Posted - 2005.09.16 15:22:00 - [17] Originally by: j0sephine I asked earlier for some sort of module for that (low slot, i guess) which would modify stats of fired missiles, giving like, 20% more damage for 75% reduction in flight time. I don't need to lose a slot to fit blasters to my ships. Kill mails
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.09.16 15:30:00 - [18] "I don't need to lose a slot to fit blasters to my ships." Aye, but once you fit them you can't switch them to rails without docking and refitting ^^ just another way to possibly make the missiles and turrets somewhat different, really...
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.09.16 15:33:00 - [19] Cerberus needs: a) Kinetic bonus converted to all missile damage. b) 6th launcher. c) An extra damage bonus. Then it just MIGHT be good enough to rival the other HACs. Of course if you do that you need to make the Eagle not suck too -- Proud member of the [23]. Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.16 15:36:00 - [20] Originally by: Dark Shikari Cerberus needs: a) Kinetic bonus converted to all missile damage. b) 6th launcher. c) An extra damage bonus. Then it just MIGHT be good enough to rival the other HACs. Of course if you do that you need to make the Eagle not suck too Eagle should get ROF bonus.. :\| ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
DayVV4lkEr	Posted - 2005.09.16 15:40:00 - [21] Edited by: DayVV4lkEr on 16/09/2005 15:40:59 everyone that calls a cerberus a long range or long range fleet ship is a stupid fool. the eagle can do the long range and fleet long range job 10 times better then the cerberus why use the cerberus ? the thing about the bonuses has been discussed quite some times the thing about the cruiser-class torp too. i can't say anything more about the cerberus, everything has been said. i just wonder what CCP thinks why cerberus sells for 60-75 million ISK and deimos for example for 75 (honestly 59.95 if u can wait something around 200 days) and 105 million.
Nadec Ascand	Posted - 2005.09.16 20:46:00 - [22] Must admit Cerberus is almost no use in pvp , but really good for doing mission Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron... Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
Savion Mercarte	Posted - 2005.09.16 21:00:00 - [23] Cerberus may not be good at PvP but it's the longest range HAC. With skills/equipment you could shoot missles from 100km with 100% accuracy, no other ship has even close to that range. You can get like... 40km on a zealot with crappy radio crystals. It'd be a great PvE ship if you put velocity increases in the low slots. After the missle changes it does need a new bonus though, it's overall range is a tad ridiculous. Another missle turret would be good too, but if you're looking for a close range ship you're probably missing the point of a Cerberus.
Dimitri Forgroth	Posted - 2005.09.16 21:06:00 - [24] Edited by: Dimitri Forgroth on 16/09/2005 21:06:47 Originally by: Savion Mercarte Cerberus may not be good at PvP but it's the longest range HAC. With skills/equipment you could shoot missles from 100km with 100% accuracy, no other ship has even close to that range. You can get like... 40km on a zealot with crappy radio crystals. 40km is with standard crystals, and no range boosters. Try 100km for radio and a proper sniper setup. Cerby outdamages at that range, but instant hit, and hits frigates fine. Originally by: HippoKing YES! i am in antoher person;s sig /marks it off taking over the world one sig at a time \o/ DPS Sheet
Savion Mercarte	Posted - 2005.09.16 21:13:00 - [25] Heavy Beam Laser II has an optimal range of 24.. with +50% assuming you actually got heavy assault ship up to 5 you'd have 36 optimal range with a standard crystal. 36 x 1.25 (sharpshooting) x1.6 for radio = 72 km. So yeah I was a bit off but at 72 km, further with falloff. However a zealot's max range without modification is 55 km and a cerberus's is 80 so the cerberus is always going to outrange a zealot and do a lot more damage than crappy DPS EM beam lasers.
Motec	Posted - 2005.09.16 21:47:00 - [26] Definately have been numerous threads on this and I've yet to see any valid argument that doesn't support it. Wish we could get an answer from dev team if they at least given it some thought? My thoughts: 5% dmg to all missle types. 5% target prediction (velocity reduction of 5% per hac lvl) The last one was mentioned before but I forget who to credit makes sense to me.
Jorev	Posted - 2005.09.16 21:49:00 - [27] Originally by: DayVV4lkEr Edited by: DayVV4lkEr on 16/09/2005 15:40:59 everyone that calls a cerberus a long range or long range fleet ship is a stupid fool. the eagle can do the long range and fleet long range job 10 times better then the cerberus why use the cerberus ? And if fully insurable turret battleship can do the long range job 10 times better than Eagle? Bottom line, whoever says that any HAC is fleet long range ship is a stupid fool.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.09.16 21:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Motec Definately have been numerous threads on this and I've yet to see any valid argument that doesn't support it. Wish we could get an answer from dev team if they at least given it some thought? My thoughts: 5% dmg to all missle types. 5% target prediction (velocity reduction of 5% per hac lvl) The last one was mentioned before but I forget who to credit makes sense to me. I'd say eliminate the kinetic bonus and give a straight 10% bonus to damage per level, 10% target prediction per level, and finally a sixth launcher. And dump the stupid flight time bonus. -- Proud member of the [23]. Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else.
Motec	Posted - 2005.09.16 22:31:00 - [29] Not a math whiz but would be interesting to see someone that is post, take each races dd hac like zealot deimos etc post there dps. Then cerberus dps as it stands with its current bonus. Then try the cerberus with 5% or 10% to all heavy missle type and 5% or 10% to target prediction. The only factor I see as a problem is no tech2 missle dmg mods or implants etc. I doubt those will ever come into game while I'm still alive though.
Moridan	Posted - 2005.09.17 00:09:00 - [30] What the Cerb needs, and cruisers in general, is a short range missle, a small torpedo. The Heavy Missle is a great multitool, it hits cruisers well, bs well, and some frigs ok. Has very long range. Its kinda like a baby cruise missle. The missle type counterpoint to the 250mm rail in a way. Besides, frigs can choose rockets or lights, bs can choose cruises or torpedos, but cruisers can choose between heavies and assaults. Well, assaults just fire lights slightly faster than standards. Which, really only makes them usefull against frigs. Basically the cruiser needs a real 3rd option, a baby torpedo, or grand daddy rocket. take your pick. Give it a fairly short range, 20km + skills, let it hit hard, adjust the dps to be better than a heavy but lower than a torp, maybe similar to cruise missle. Let it give neutron blasters a run for their money. anyways, thats my take. "Speak quietly and carry a big torpedo."

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