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Alts using covert ops and idling in systems...its GOT to stop.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
mahhy	Posted - 2005.09.20 06:58:00 - [31] Whats the point of having cloaks in game if you just introduce more ways to neutralize them
NoMotion	Posted - 2005.09.20 07:06:00 - [32] Edited by: NoMotion on 20/09/2005 07:08:07 Edited by: NoMotion on 20/09/2005 07:07:33 Originally by: Redux Originally by: Ma'Bor Jetrel Edited by: Ma''Bor Jetrel on 19/09/2005 22:16:43 Cloaked ships SHOULD be very difficult to find and destroy. So much so that it might take a team of 3 destroyers or whatever hours to find a cloaked vessel. But it SHOULD be possible. Once they're in the system at a safespot or otherwise out-of-the-way location, even this is not possible barring a unbelievably lucky collision. GRRRRRRRRR!! That kind of arguing should get you send back to first grade immediately. You are so bend on your solution scenario(because it is SO much easier for you) that you take Ma''Bor Jetrel to account for something he did not say. He NEVER specified that he meant for the destroyers to actually more or less bump into the ship. And anyone above the level of idiot whould have deducted that it couldn't be his intention either. He suggested that they be given _A_ way. So read his post again. And come up with a thought out counter for a reasonable suggestion.
Derron Bel	Posted - 2005.09.20 07:20:00 - [33] If people want to pay for the second acounts, well, okay, they can do this. It suks, but I don't really see a way around it that doesn't suck, beyond the local bit. -==- Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise! LooseCannoN> ahh! LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled!
Agil Scout	Posted - 2005.09.20 08:05:00 - [34] Originally by: Redux rabble nerf nerf rabble nerf... Dont matter what your reason to post this, i belive u was ganked by a covert setting up on you . Covert opps are 100% correct the way they are atm, this comming from someone that has killed and BEEN killed by a covert setting up in position. Sure its a pain they can be in local, so can a MWD'n ceptor or a nub days/weeks only in a shuttle in a Deep safe. GET OVER IT If Covert opps get nerfed it will be a goddamn shame. ------------ [IAC] Teh best noob corp in the world. I R AN ALT FEAR ME!
Matthew	Posted - 2005.09.20 08:11:00 - [35] You mean people are actually using covert ops ships to covertly scout systems This sort of thing is exactly what the covert ops ship was designed to do. It does it's job well, and there is no need to change the behaviour of the cloak or the ship. The only thing I would like to see added to the mix is to give a force with total territorial control the chance to flush such ships out. This should require long-term deployables, maybe even POS-based equipment. So flushing them out in your home system would be feasible, but purging a random battlefield would be a huge investment in time and equipment. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.09.20 08:14:00 - [36] Originally by: mahhy Whats the point of having cloaks in game if you just introduce more ways to neutralize them Yea, I mean, isn't this basically what CovOps and cloaks are for? [23]
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.09.20 08:18:00 - [37] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock wasnt there a "cloak sonar" on singularity or something? anyway, i agree. cloaked persons are impossible to find, give us something (like the cloak sonar) to find them, as they can easily find us with probes... Yup Im fine with a sonar that takes 200CPU, requires nearly five minutes to deploy, needs around a months training, and costs around 500K per shot. Oh and only finds things on a plane. That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die. -- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure.
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.09.20 08:29:00 - [38] There was a test item of a decloaking device in the Eve Data, though I can't remember the details. The point is though, that people in cov ops normally safespot well out of the way of a 50km pulse. You can even spy on a gate by sitting 750km off of it in a shuttle. The only solutions I can think of are: 1) Boot idle clients from the game. - This wouldn't be too bad as it would help reduce server loads. Though equally it would lower the concurrent client numbers, and someone is bound to macro an action to prevent idiling. 2) Create a new probe. - Give it short range, and make it very expensive/slow. But allow it to detect cloaked ships. 3) Create some sort of uber module. - Something like the current siege module for dreadnaughts. Create a battleship mounted smartbomb with decent range (effectively covering the current grid) that will decloak ships, but also is a pain in the arse to setup and completely incapacitates the hosting ship for a while (drops shield and cap to 0%?). Something that is highly impactical to use, not a nerf-cloak button. 23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC
Herko Kerghans	Posted - 2005.09.20 08:42:00 - [39] Originally by: theRaptor Yup Im fine with a sonar that takes 200CPU, requires nearly five minutes to deploy, needs around a months training, and costs around 500K per shot. Oh and only finds things on a plane. You forgot to add, "sometimes". At the original poster: What you describe (an alt on a CovOpjust hanging around on the system) is no much different that an alt in a nano MWD Inty logging on and off when he needs to check things. You are never gonna catch him, either at his safespot(s) or gate. CovOp do one thing no other ship does: lets you warp to your foes and get close to them. A "sonar" would ruin that... I mean, just the possibility would ruin that. You wouldn't even have to actually fit it; no CovOp will risk the 20-30 million ship + module to the possibility of you having a "ping" that makes it visible. The other thing CovOps are very good at (ship bonus) is scan probes... yet with max skills (covop V, astrometric V, survey V) you still need a minimum of 75 for the scans to give you a reading... and that is after you already are at less than 1,5 AU from your target, in the same plane, paying some 150K isk for the probes, and you still have to warp to the point and get close (the probes may land you some 120 km from your targets... say you wanna crawl at 20km to give your tacklers a chance... while cloaked you move at 400 m/s with good skills and setup... if you gotta move, better say crawl that distance, which will take you over 3 minutes, with the "ping" module able to expose you, you will not even bother) ON the other hand... that so hard to bust safespot can be made literally "on the fly", requiring no skill training, no cap, no module, no isk, and just a couple of neurones. Thus... -alts can still hang around loggin on/off with an inty... aint gonna solve the problem (and seems to be an alt problem, not the covop...) -make covop "pingable" and you destroy their ultimate function: discover a safespot and get close to the target. Now... give the covop an "enhanced scanner options", that needs skills but no modules, that gives it a "perfect" warp-in point (thus I can select 15 km, 20 km...) of any ship in 20 secs with max skills, and that warp in point being usable by any member of the gang (gangwarp) so the whole fleet arrives at point blank and does not need the covop to go there alone... ok, then you can have your "ping" module and we all happy. - By my third bottle and feeling already slightly vertically challenged...

Oveur	Posted - 2005.09.20 08:45:00 - [40] Originally by: Winterblink Well it's better than creating multiple threads on the subject... Now then, shimmering is cool and all, but if you park 150km away from a gate who's going to see it? Nobody, that's who. The gripe seems more about alts than the cloaking mechanic. Since you can't nerf alts, you want to nerf cloaking. I'm betting more than one person will have something to say about that. Bingo. _____________________________ "There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"

Sanaen Eydanwadh	Posted - 2005.09.20 09:54:00 - [41] I agree with Redux concerns, but I don't get his propositions... The problem is not in the cov ops ships or in their cloaking devices, but in the use and abuse of alts !! If your ennemy didn't use an alt, but a friend/ corpmate in the same covops, to scout and keep an eye on the system, would you think it's a problem? It would be perfectly fair to me. If he didn't use a covops but a noob alt in a shuttle, would you really think it's better? It would seem even lamer to me (maybe less risk, same result) Covops are already extremely limited ships, I don't think they can get limitations without making them useless. A way of detecting them if they're not carefull would be good tho (a "ping" module, a "cloak perturbation field", or probes?). But if I was to develop this game (luckily I'm not), I would quite frankly make the use of alts a lot harder, or even (let's dream) bannable. Their only purpose should be (IMHO still) to play with the character creation tools, or to giving a try to another race if ever you get bored with your initial character - using them as tools maybe the lamest thing I can see in EVE. Well, it's a form of slavery, and slavery is bad, you know?
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.09.20 10:02:00 - [42] Only one solution: remove noobcorps from the game. Which is not a discussable solution. Result: alts are here to stay, live with it and adapt your stategies. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Nafri	Posted - 2005.09.20 10:04:00 - [43] Or make a ship designated to find covert ops but that finding time should be around 5min if the covert ops pilot doesnt move/take care much like scan probes, but mucho slower -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
Rufus Roughneck	Posted - 2005.09.20 10:08:00 - [44] Originally by: Nafri Or make a ship designated to find covert ops but that finding time should be around 5min if the covert ops pilot doesnt move/take care much like scan probes, but mucho slower The problem is alts, not covops. And tbh, its duscutabel wether it's alts at all, and not just second account-mains. I see no issue with it, if someone can run a second account ina covops and wants it to sit cloaked at some spot for all eternity then that's allowed isn't it ?
Sanaen Eydanwadh	Posted - 2005.09.20 10:32:00 - [45] Originally by: Rod Blaine Only one solution: remove noobcorps from the game. Which is not a discussable solution. Result: alts are here to stay, live with it and adapt your stategies. Nothing to do with noobcorps, especially if we speak about 0.0 space. There are many solutions to deal with the alts themselves: forbid them (but yes, I know), make a long timer to switch characters, provide relations between characters in their "show info" window (which wouldn't solve the OP's problem but would reduce a lot of problems caused by alts) If it's about second account's "mains", well... I still think it's a bad thing for the gameplay, but I know a lot of people around are rich/ nerds/ hardcore enough to use two or more accounts, so I won't rant to loud about it and pretend to think it's fine.
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2005.09.20 10:48:00 - [46] its a pain in the *** not to have the possibility to find cloaked ships ... my major concern is that you can sit afk in a system and be totally sure that no one on earth can kill you ... it makes pvp consentual even in 0.0 ... tbh I would like to have the possibilty to scan for cloaked ships... we dont even need a new module or anything ... All you need to do is to let it show up on the scanner ... NOT THE OVERVIEW ... ... you use scan probes and fly to his location ... and you of COURSE cant see him ... you than norrow down the angle of your scanner ... move into that direction and try to decloak the ship ... afterall a covert ops ship will have no problem what so ever to stay out of harm cuz it can warp out cloaked ... still the player behind that ship is FORCED to actually play the game cuz he can be found ... after this changes I would considder to lower the cloaking penalties ... consentual pvp ftl mmmkay? Greetings Grim
fatboymicro	Posted - 2005.09.20 11:37:00 - [47] indeed... i rofl at the mere thought of someone trying to force my hand into non-consensual pvp when i'm sitting in a system twiddling my thumbs, providing traffic reports from my covert ops. reeks wildly of frustration on their part. esp when i say nowt in local. i shouldn't be doing that? omg! well, according to some people i shouldn't, but it's not an exploit and it doesn't go against any game mechanics. if it ****es people off, i don't give a hoot. i'm there to do a job and a job i'll do. now, take the cloaking nerf idea and use it as a probe. ^^ cloaking ftw
Lisa Run	Posted - 2005.09.20 11:49:00 - [48] Originally by: Grim Vandal its a pain in the *** not to have the possibility to find cloaked ships ... my major concern is that you can sit afk in a system and be totally sure that no one on earth can kill you ... it makes pvp consentual even in 0.0 ... tbh I would like to have the possibilty to scan for cloaked ships... we dont even need a new module or anything ... All you need to do is to let it show up on the scanner ... NOT THE OVERVIEW ... ... you use scan probes and fly to his location ... and you of COURSE cant see him ... you than norrow down the angle of your scanner ... move into that direction and try to decloak the ship ... afterall a covert ops ship will have no problem what so ever to stay out of harm cuz it can warp out cloaked ... still the player behind that ship is FORCED to actually play the game cuz he can be found ... after this changes I would considder to lower the cloaking penalties ... I like this idea. I think about training covert ops myself. I could live with that and I think that there should be at least a little chance to chase someone who's sitting cloaked somewhere. At the moment it's pointless. Doing it with probes would be nice.
Balazs Simon	Posted - 2005.09.20 11:54:00 - [49] lol, stupid thread!!! Cov Op is a scout ship damn it! The original poster say nerf it, and make it impossible to scout... LOL Stupid thread - New sig coming soon..
Xerxes Xenos	Posted - 2005.09.20 12:00:00 - [50] Pass me the joint please, must be good stuff
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2005.09.20 12:40:00 - [51] ohhnoooooooooeeeeesss, ppl are using SPYS in systems for intel....... I use alts that live their lives in the pod, no ship, in system so i can log in, check the local, warp to bm' for intel on gates, and stations....why??? to out smart the ebil pie-rats and gankers...does this make me a cheat, ebil?? CCP has more important insues to deal with then figuring out how to make the game more brain dead so you don't have to think....after all if we had to think, calculate risk/reward, how to outsmart others, we would be forced into a mmorpg world....oh ya, it is... I hope you understand my point, this is a universe that the players create the play, ccp only provided the tools (with some rules on behavior related to grief play). As far as players using 'alts' that can fly covert ops ships and use cloaks...come on, lets get real, it takes a conciderable time investement of skill training to get there, sacrificing their mains skill training in favor of being able to outsmart others using intel they can gather. Seems well balanced in this aspect, and instead of whinage, I would expect others to LEARN by what you are whining about and ADAPT.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.09.20 12:44:00 - [52] What is the difference between a covert ops alt idling in a system watching local and somone doing it with their main exactly?
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.09.20 12:49:00 - [53] industrial pilots in low sec need some sort of protection - the use of alt cloakers is quite accptible.
HUGO DRAX	Posted - 2005.09.20 13:06:00 - [54] Originally by: Redux You're missing the point of the thread. I personally love covert ops ships and have V in both skills necessary to fly them. My point is the fact that people are abusing the current mechanics of the game and it is having an impact on the gameplay in a negative way. Again, using an alt to sit indefinitely in a system should somehow be controllable by those that want it gone. First of all, I don't know how much experience you have with covert-ops, not saying I've got the greatest, but I think you're off on a couple of points in your rebuttle. 1) Covert Ops ships cannot be spotted by either probes or scanner WHILE CLOAKED. 2) I said nothing about disabling warping while cloaked. Hell, I'm ****ed the stealth bombers can't do it. I merely suggested that cloak-able ships not be able to break the cloak everyone gets when you jump into a system and recloak immediately. 3) As far as the scan probes go...you cannot use the scan probe launcher to launch OR analyze launched probes while cloaked. So, removing the system scanning ability WHILE cloaked would not impact that. Besides, the thrust of my post here is not against active covert ops pilots actively plying their trade. It's against idling covert ops pilots (alts) that just sit there, but cannot be found or dealth with. no more nerf threads please. I could careless if an alt is parked in covertops all day in system, it just makes things more interesting.
Nafri	Posted - 2005.09.20 13:09:00 - [55] Originally by: Rufus Roughneck Originally by: Nafri Or make a ship designated to find covert ops but that finding time should be around 5min if the covert ops pilot doesnt move/take care much like scan probes, but mucho slower The problem is alts, not covops. And tbh, its duscutabel wether it's alts at all, and not just second account-mains. I see no issue with it, if someone can run a second account ina covops and wants it to sit cloaked at some spot for all eternity then that's allowed isn't it ? And I didnt even mentioned the alt thingie, cause I dont care about that. Its just there should be a counter thing to cloaking, more then this 2km range thing. Although 300 corpses around a gate surly works well against them -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.09.20 13:16:00 - [56] thats what cloakign devices are for to spy - covert ops ships are there for spying as well. Pirates use cloaked alts to spot incoming ships from the otherside of the gate and gank haulers as they go through - so with both sides (well 3 sides) alliances - pirates and nonpirates all using the cloaking - alt thing it works out about even. Given the log off timers have been nerfed (good thing) then there remains a pirate - non - priate balancing thing in place. Either work on youre PVP hunting skills or stop being a pirate.
Rasta Rocketman	Posted - 2005.09.20 13:34:00 - [57] I would agree that there should be something to counter covert ops ships, possibly a very weak module but something nonetheless. As for the rest I'd say adapt. Asking for nerfs isn't the answer. _______________________________________________
Mathir	Posted - 2005.09.20 15:24:00 - [58] Just a thought: if someone's talking in local <Incoming <real life analogue>> they are broadcasting (somehow) yes? So, why not then allow them to be found? Non cloaked ships can be located via scan probes either way, but why not make Cloaked ships have an increased chance to be found proportional to the amount of chat text maybe/and decaying over time? Let them listen in to Local ... just have a penalty to smack-talk there. Might be amusing to penalize non-local chat as well as email and market access. (Ok, let them scan market - that's "listening", but any buy/sells would be considered "broadcasting.") Granted TS would bypass all this wrt actual spying for your corp, but why not to to put some risk/annoyance on the practice? Seems like taking a cloaked ship out is very close to an "I win" button. (Feel free to correct me however, as I'm not that versed in the activity.) Think back to the introduction of "cloaking" in ST TOS: they were essentially dead in the water and were afraid of a wrench dropping to give them away... Freelancer Fly Free, Live Free
Hellspawn666	Posted - 2005.09.20 16:38:00 - [59] This isnt a problem ive had many empire wars and having a bad guy using an alt in a covert ops really doesnt make all that difference... Just ignore him if they know x amount of ppl enter a system at this time well good for them they must of spent bloody ages sitting their working it out. Local chat is a problem but covert ops certainly arnt. Covert ops already arnt all that popular lets not nurf them into oblivian.
jonus Rath	Posted - 2005.09.20 17:55:00 - [60] I swear theres an idle time. I say that because i cant sit idle for more then 3 or 4 mins befor my char crashes to desktop and just gives me a damn pop up saying "Connection to server lost." If this happenes to any of you plz pipe up. Cuz its ******* anoying. __________________________________ I hereby decree that all 0.0 space corps are full of asshats.

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