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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
284
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why is this? Both races o a fair bit of each type of tanking it seems like they should have a lower range bonus than than Caldari / Amarr dedicated ships but have the option to fit either type of repper. Just curious as to what the thinking is behind forcing shield or armor reppers on them. Any thoughts or wisdom would be helpful.
*Yes I would like to see them have either repper as an option. But I also have a feeling that this has come up before and there is a good reason balance wise why it is not so. I just can't figure out what it is.
-áCorebloodbrothers & Ali Aras for CSM: Ring mining & bottom up income, new player balance, NRDS
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Dave Stark
2663
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
i'd rather have 2 ships dedicated to each tank type, than have 2 ships that have half arsed bonuses to each and will thus never get used. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
7789
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
What Dave said.
/c
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
284
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
well lets back it up a little bit then, why are Gallente / Minmatar fleets set up to tank either or but their logi only bonused towards one or the other?
-áCorebloodbrothers & Ali Aras for CSM: Ring mining & bottom up income, new player balance, NRDS
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Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
Nulli Legio
370
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Train the other type. Scimi and oneiros are best. Scythe and exequror are pretty respectable these days too!
I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance. |
Nihi Lismus
Chaos From Order
Manifest Destiny.
154
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
because matari and gallente are ally.
If Minmatars rolling out an armor fleet, the gallente navy sends some Logis and vice versa |
Dave Stark
2663
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:well lets back it up a little bit then, why are Gallente / Minmatar fleets set up to tank either or but their logi only bonused towards one or the other?
because that's how it is.
the simple fact is a dual bonused ship will be inferior at both due to having bonuses to both and the training time for another race's cruiser to V is what, a month tops?
hardly a reason for each race to have more than 1 logi ship. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe
Defiant Legacy
1067
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:well lets back it up a little bit then, why are Gallente / Minmatar fleets set up to tank either or but their logi only bonused towards one or the other? because that's how it is. the simple fact is a dual bonused ship will be inferior at both due to having bonuses to both and the training time for another race's cruiser to V is what, a month tops? hardly a reason for each race to have more than 1 logi ship.
But then the question comes up - why have racial ships anyway? Why have green Gallente ships and golden Amarr ships? If anyone can fly anything anyway?
EVE, in many ways, makes very little sense. You have high-sec space where a Gallente pilot can come and go as he pleases in and around Caldari Prime, while a few systems away these same pilots are butchering each other wholesale in an open conflict in factional warfare. That feeling of racial equipment/ship uniqueness you get in, for example, RTS games, is totally lost in EVE. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1390
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:well lets back it up a little bit then, why are Gallente / Minmatar fleets set up to tank either or but their logi only bonused towards one or the other?
Because of changes that have happened in the last 10 years that probably weren't "strictly" following Gallente or Minmatar "design philosophies" as laid out in the late '90s when the game was originally being developed.
Looking at stats of ships, in very general terms, the original design seemed to be this:
Amarr - Strong armor tanks (highest raw armor HP, and bonuses to resists, and slot layout), weak-ish hull and shields
Caldari - Strong shield tanks (highest raw shield HP, bonuses to resists, and slot layout) - weak-ish armor and hull
Gallente - HULL Tanks (highest raw hull HP, slot layout to allow mid-slot hull reppers in conjunction with low-slot resist/HP mods) - weakish
Minmatar - rag-tag mix of everything. (Shield/Armour/Hull HP and slot layouts all over the place).
EDIT -- This is ignoring any and all ships added after the initial release (e.g. destroyers, battlecruisers, "tier 3" battleships, etc), as the numbers on those ships don't necessarily follow this trend. Furthermore, this is "pre-tiericide", as I'm at work, and only able to look at the wiki (which still shows old ship stats).
Trouble is, CCP realized at some point that hull tanking was a very bad idea, and left only token modules (reinforced bulkheads, terribad hull repairers) and moved Gallente to armour, but leaving a slot layout that can work with shields as well -- this is also helped with the fact that all four races have the exact same shield resist profile. I'm not certain whether this was done pre-2003 (i.e. beta testing), or sometime between launch and the release of the first waves of T2 modules.
Minmatar is more due their hit-and-run/guerrilla tactics doing a similar thing, space in the mids for prop mods + webs and the like, with space in the lows for nanos and whatnot. Not to mention that over time, nerfs to speed (no more dual-MWD setups, nano nerf, web nerf etc) have made traditional tanking methods preferred over simple speed/sig with maybe a resist mod/rig thrown on because you had slots/fitting for it.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1599
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:well lets back it up a little bit then, why are Gallente / Minmatar fleets set up to tank either or but their logi only bonused towards one or the other? because that's how it is. the simple fact is a dual bonused ship will be inferior at both due to having bonuses to both and the training time for another race's cruiser to V is what, a month tops? hardly a reason for each race to have more than 1 logi ship. But then the question comes up - why have racial ships anyway? Why have green Gallente ships and golden Amarr ships? If anyone can fly anything anyway? EVE, in many ways, makes very little sense. You have high-sec space where a Gallente pilot can come and go as he pleases in and around Caldari Prime, while a few systems away these same pilots are butchering each other wholesale in an open conflict in factional warfare. That feeling of racial equipment/ship uniqueness you get in, for example, RTS games, is totally lost in EVE.
Professional bad guys were unfortunately not available so instead they sent me.
Voter response is quite good this time around:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qCaz2OlMecY/UWhTTh_NfFI/AAAAAAAAPOE/ryjfQkApycs/s1600/05.jpg |
Dave Stark
2663
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Posted - 2013.04.18 14:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:well lets back it up a little bit then, why are Gallente / Minmatar fleets set up to tank either or but their logi only bonused towards one or the other? because that's how it is. the simple fact is a dual bonused ship will be inferior at both due to having bonuses to both and the training time for another race's cruiser to V is what, a month tops? hardly a reason for each race to have more than 1 logi ship. But then the question comes up - why have racial ships anyway? Why have green Gallente ships and golden Amarr ships? If anyone can fly anything anyway? EVE, in many ways, makes very little sense. You have high-sec space where a Gallente pilot can come and go as he pleases in and around Caldari Prime, while a few systems away these same pilots are butchering each other wholesale in an open conflict in factional warfare. That feeling of racial equipment/ship uniqueness you get in, for example, RTS games, is totally lost in EVE.
for the same reason you don't start the game with all skills at V.
to force you to make decisions, and stuff like that. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1390
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 14:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
EVE, in many ways, makes very little sense. You have high-sec space where a Gallente pilot can come and go as he pleases in and around Caldari Prime, while a few systems away these same pilots are butchering each other wholesale in an open conflict in factional warfare. That feeling of racial equipment/ship uniqueness you get in, for example, RTS games, is totally lost in EVE.
Well, seeing as Caldari Prime is in Luminaire (a Gallente system), this makes perfect sense. The Caldari State was originally part of the Gallente Federation, but broke off as their own group shortly before the Caldari/Gallente war (Looks to have started off as mainly the Achura people [mixed in with some Gallente bloodlines], then the Civire and Detis have joined the State since).
The Gallente were able to kick the State out of Luminaire during the war (even though the Caldari got capsule tech first), and "New Caldari Prime" was founded in New Caldari/Kimotoro/The Forge.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Raven Solaris
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
16
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Posted - 2013.04.18 15:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'd rather have a Logi that can do one type of repping well instead of a Logi that does both but is worse at it than the dedicated armour/shield logistics.
Not to mention that while some Gallente ships do well when shield tanking, such as the Talos, it is in no way a focus on any of their ships, it's all about the armour and hull. |
Xercodo
Xovoni Directorate
2286
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Minmatar is the only weird one. All the Gallente ships are technically armor tankers, we're the ones that forced shields on to them.
Minmatar are largely shield tankers, but do have a handful of armor ships, rupture, tempest, typhoon, hurricane, but other than that they are mostly shield.
The Drake is a Lie |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
Home Front Coalition
413
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
I was under the impression each race has their 'favoured' tank type as a logi ship, and fleets would have to look at the allied racial logi ship if they would want to fly ships that fit the other type of tank. I thought the logi ships simply worked like that to make fleet compositions a little more interesting, and a bit more challenging to come up with a good one. |
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
265
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:Why is this? Both races o a fair bit of each type of tanking it seems like they should have the option to fit either type of repper. Just curious as to what the thinking is behind forcing shield or armor reppers on them. Any thoughts or wisdom would be helpful.
*Yes I would like to see them have either repper as an option. But I also have a feeling that this has come up before and there is a good reason balance wise why it is not so. I just can't figure out what it is.
Wait, you're CVA, why are you flying Winmatar or Gallente ships in the first place? You must restrict yourself to Amarr only or leave that organization. :)
As to the reasoning: originally Winmatar ships were a shield tank doctrine and Gallente were armour tanking doctrine.
Times have changed but that remains mostly true. Players are just tricksy in that they find "unique and clever" ways to think outside the box but the corp racial concepts remain the same... at least until CCP decides to change them. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
642
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Posted - 2013.04.18 16:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Op is a troll. Was there ever one post of OP that one actually consider to be meant serious? I do not think so.
"Also, your boobs  " -á
CCP Eterne, 2012
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
3166
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Posted - 2013.04.18 19:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with the current logistics configuration.
Amarr - Guardian/Augoror - More armor HP repaired / Not cap stable without cap buddy
Caldari - Basilisk/ Osprey - More shield HP repaired / Not cap stable without cap buddy
Gallente - Onieros/ Exqueror - Less Armor HP repaired / Cap stable / solo ability
Minmatar - Scimitar/ Scythe - Less Shield HP repaired / Cap stable / solo ability
This is extremely balanced as it is.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
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