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Serge Bussier
Universal Prime Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2013.04.20 07:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
I could not find a proper thread, so started a new one.
We all know that in Odyssey there will be changes with Command Ships.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-great-skill-change-of-blessed-2013/ wrote: Command Ships
Racial Cruiser 5 requirement swapped for racial Battlecruiser 5 Generic and old Battlecruiser skill removed from the Command Ship skill Heavy Assault Ships skill requirement removed from Field Command Ships (Absolution, Nighthawk, Astarte, Sleipnir) Logistics skill requirement removed from Fleet Command Ships (Damnation, Vulture, Eos, Claymore) Information Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill Armored Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill Siege Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill Skirmish Warfare 5 skill added as requirement for the Command Ship skill
What do we have? Today, to pilot a command ship, a character needs to train the following skills from Leadership group: * Leadership V * Warfare Link Specialist IV
After Odyssey goes, additional skills from Leadership group will be required: * Armored Warfare V * Information Warfare V * Siege Warfare V * Skirmish Warfare V
Will I need to train all 4 Warfare skills to V to have access to command ships after Odyssey comes out? Or required skillpoints will be reimbursed with proper amount?
Not a long road, really, but I'd like to clarify the situation.
Thanks. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
80
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Posted - 2013.04.20 07:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
As long as you have the Command Ships skill injected, you will be future-proof against the changes in Odyssey as the changes affect the Command Ships skill itself. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2587
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Posted - 2013.04.20 08:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
This has nothing to do with Features and Ideas discussion, and your question is answered in the dev blog, and repeated ad nauseaum in the comments thread.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
70
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Posted - 2013.04.20 08:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Roime wrote:This has nothing to do with Features and Ideas discussion, and your question is answered in the dev blog, and repeated ad nauseaum in the comments thread.
I want a link to that answer. Also there are some concerns about command ships skill: you can inject it pre-odyssey and avoid learning all warfares to 5, then post-odyssey when they remove logistics and hacs from prereqs you'll be able to fly all commands assuming you have BC 5 (who doesnt?). That contradicts with CCP's policy "if you can fly it before patch - you could do it afterwards". Also i need some clarification: can you add skill that misses prerequisites to skill queue if you have it injected, because when i asked about it ingame i've been told that you cant. |
Serge Bussier
Universal Prime Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2013.04.20 09:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Roime wrote:This has nothing to do with Features and Ideas discussion, and your question is answered in the dev blog, and repeated ad nauseaum in the comments thread. Could you give us a link, please? I remember about the famed "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" policy, but there are always some particular situations. |
Miles Forrester
Reverberation Inc
15
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Posted - 2013.04.20 10:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Serge Bussier wrote:Roime wrote:This has nothing to do with Features and Ideas discussion, and your question is answered in the dev blog, and repeated ad nauseaum in the comments thread. Could you give us a link, please? I remember about the famed "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now" policy, but there are always some particular situations. Answer as linked to in the first post of comments thread |
Serge Bussier
Universal Prime Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2013.04.20 11:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thanks :) It's still not clear to me if I need to inject these Warfare skills to get the reimbursement, but i'll do that - just in case :)))) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
225
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Posted - 2013.04.20 12:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Roime wrote:This has nothing to do with Features and Ideas discussion, and your question is answered in the dev blog, and repeated ad nauseaum in the comments thread.
I want a link to that answer. Also there are some concerns about command ships skill: you can inject it pre-odyssey and avoid learning all warfares to 5, then post-odyssey when they remove logistics and hacs from prereqs you'll be able to fly all commands assuming you have BC 5 (who doesnt?). That contradicts with CCP's policy "if you can fly it before patch - you could do it afterwards" to some extent. Also i need some clarification: can you add skill that misses prerequisites to skill queue if you have it injected? Because when i asked about it ingame i've been told that you cant. Actually, it doesn't contradict it at all. This is a case of 'You couldn't fly it before but you can now' which has nothing to do with if you could fly it before still being able to fly it now. I understand why you might get confused, but the policy you are talking about is CCP's policy of not removing abilities you had from your character. This is an addition.
For the skill queue clarification, CCP have clarified that come Odyssey once a skill is injected it will be trainable regardless. This is a change from the current system. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
70
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Posted - 2013.04.20 12:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Actually, it doesn't contradict it at all. This is a case of 'You couldn't fly it before but you can now' which has nothing to do with if you could fly it before still being able to fly it now. I understand why you might get confused, but the policy you are talking about is CCP's policy of not removing abilities you had from your character. This is an addition.
Two sides of the same coin.
Anyway i got my answer, thanks. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2589
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Posted - 2013.04.20 14:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Serge Bussier wrote:Thanks :) It's still not clear to me if I need to inject these Warfare skills to get the reimbursement, but i'll do that - just in case :))))
Reimbursement? There will be no skill point or skill reimbursements in Odyssey.
This whole skill tree change is really incredibly simple: if you can activate/board a ship before the change, you can do it also after the change. Nothing affects you.
For example- I have CS V and can fly the Astarte and Eos now. After Odyssey, I can fly them both at lvl V even if the Required Skills pages for them listed Minmatar Titan V, Fast Talk V, Exhumers IV and all shield compensation skills to III. (I don't have those skills)
If you can't yet fly the ship, the prerequisites to inject primary skills will be different after Odyssey. So the change only concerns those who cannot yet fly said ship, and they should revisit their training plans.
However, the new skill prerequisites make an awful lot of sense. Back to my example, even though I have CS V, I don't have the Warfare skills. I would be much more useful for my fleet if I met all those new prerequisites, as HAC and Logistics skills are completely useless when I sit in Astarte or Eos, but links would be sweet.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
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Serge Bussier
Universal Prime Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2013.04.20 16:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Roime wrote:Serge Bussier wrote:Thanks :) It's still not clear to me if I need to inject these Warfare skills to get the reimbursement, but i'll do that - just in case :)))) Reimbursement? There will be no skill point or skill reimbursements in Odyssey. This whole skill tree change is really incredibly simple: if you can activate/board a ship before the change, you can do it also after the change. Nothing affects you. For example- I have CS V and can fly the Astarte and Eos now. After Odyssey, I can fly them both at lvl V even if the Required Skills pages for them listed Minmatar Titan V, Fast Talk V, Exhumers IV and all shield compensation skills to III. (I don't have those skills) If you can't yet fly the ship, the prerequisites to inject primary skills will be different after Odyssey. So the change only concerns those who cannot yet fly said ship, and they should revisit their training plans. However, the new skill prerequisites make an awful lot of sense. Back to my example, even though I have CS V, I don't have the Warfare skills. I would be much more useful for my fleet if I met all those new prerequisites, as HAC and Logistics skills are completely useless when I sit in Astarte or Eos, but links would be sweet.
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2590
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Posted - 2013.04.20 17:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reimburse
The additional skillpoints are just a result of A) splitting the skills into racial skills and B) CCP policy "if you can fly it now, you can fly it later".
Command Ships skills will not be split.
Quote:So there is a way to pilot a ship even if you don't meet the requirements? Cool, I didn't know that's possible. There were such precedents in the past?
I clarified my post. Of course you need the primary and secondary (and tertiary) skills to fly a ship, but they will be Battlecruisers V and Command Ships I in Odyssey. And currently BC V is prerequisite for CS.
However, the Warfare skills are not needed to fly the ship. You need them in order to inject Command Ships skill.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Serge Bussier
Universal Prime Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2013.04.20 18:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
OK, let's not discuss what reimbursement is :) Wrong topic for it.
Roime wrote:However, the Warfare skills are not needed to fly the ship. You need them in order to inject Command Ships skill. Oh, that I didn't know. There is a difference between what skills you need to fly a ship and what skills you need to gain access to it? Where I can find a proper list? Never seen this unobvious moment was explained anywhere.
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Seranova Farreach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
443
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Posted - 2013.04.20 18:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
i don't remember which dev said it but "If you could fly it before the tiericide you will still be able to after" or something close to that. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14710
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 19:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Are people still not clear on this? Really?
After the change, this is the case..... GÇ£If you could fly it before, you can fly it now.GÇ¥
What about that sentence, is so hard to understand? Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2594
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 21:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Serge Bussier wrote:OK, let's not discuss what reimbursement is :) Wrong topic for it. Roime wrote:However, the Warfare skills are not needed to fly the ship. You need them in order to inject Command Ships skill. Oh, that I didn't know. There is a difference between what skills you need to fly a ship and what skills you need to gain access to it? Where I can find a proper list? Never seen this unobvious moment was explained anywhere.
Right-click any ship, Show Info, select Prerequisites tab.
You need the Primary (and Secondary and Tertiary on advanced ships) skills to use the ship. All the other skills listed under these skills are prerequisites for injecting these main skills. As is obvious from the intendation. They are listed just for your comfort, so you don't need to show info on each of the skills separately to see their prerequisites.
Good luck in EVE, you might run into things that are actually difficult to grasp, at least compared to this skill change.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
446
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 16:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Requirements to fly a command ship (Odyssey): * Command Ships I
that is all Mittani, where have you gone to? I miss you :( |
DarkStar Kuha
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
6
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Posted - 2013.06.04 13:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
has anyone tested this yet? i have command ships 1 but not the leadership stuff not wasting money on the ship just to test.. |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Unclaimed.
122
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 14:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
for us old guys who have all frig 5, dessy 5, all cruiser 5, bc and cmd ship 5, this change does nothing but takes me from 124m sp to 130m sp. i get no reimbursement of anything. just a number jump.
for the new guys who have frig 3 and dessy 5, you will get all 5 racial destroyers maxed out. cruier 3 in all and bc 5 will net you all 4 bc maxed out.
so, if one of your goals are to fly all bs and below, you could have trained this and "been in like flin": all frigs to 4, dessy 4, all cruisers to 4, bc 4. when we are allowed back in today, it would have been instant bs training for any race. 2 weeks of training or so would have given you all bs in game.
altho we are gaining sp, its mere the total sp of your toon is increasing, there arent any to assign... |
Jexal Mirat
Priests of the Temples of Syrinx Inc.
1
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Posted - 2013.06.26 02:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'm kinda confuzzled as to the why the fack did they do it that way?
So I need to have all Warfare links now at V, to fly any Command Ship.
Explain to me how this makes sense;
To fly a Damnation, which is an armor bonus command ship. Why the hell do I need to have Siege Warfare at V to fly it now? This is a goddamned armor bonus ship. If I'm going to be using 3 (or more) links on it, one of them sure as snot is NOT going to be a fricking Siege Warfare link.
To fly a Vulture, which is an shield bonus command ship. Why the hell do I need to have Armor Warfare at V to fly it now? This is a goddamned shield bonus ship. If I'm going to be using 3 (or more) links on it, one of them sure as snot is NOT going to be a fricking Armor Warfare link.
Ok mayyybe you see where I'm going with this.
This "rebalancing" has just made Command Ships obsolete, as I can get a 7 link Loki or Legion, Tengu or Proteus, in less time than it takes to get to Command Ships. Plus I get better bonuses. For the T3's If I only want to fly T2 armor links, I can. But Command Ships, I have to have ALL warfare skills at V first.
So riddle me this Batman, how is this "rebalanced"?
What would make sense to me is having your racial bonus skill, Amarr-Armor, Caldari-Siege, Minnie-skirmish and Gally-Info ONLY at V. What you choose to do after you get into that, is your problem. But instead we have crappy faction battlecruisers.
That's just me, I could be wrong. |
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Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Unicorn Enterprise
106
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Posted - 2013.06.26 02:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jexal Mirat wrote:I'm kinda confuzzled as to the why the fack did they do it that way?
So I need to have all Warfare links now at V, to fly any Command Ship.
Explain to me how this makes sense;
To fly a Damnation, which is an armor bonus command ship. Why the hell do I need to have Siege Warfare at V to fly it now? This is a goddamned armor bonus ship. If I'm going to be using 3 (or more) links on it, one of them sure as snot is NOT going to be a fricking Siege Warfare link.
To fly a Vulture, which is an shield bonus command ship. Why the hell do I need to have Armor Warfare at V to fly it now? This is a goddamned shield bonus ship. If I'm going to be using 3 (or more) links on it, one of them sure as snot is NOT going to be a fricking Armor Warfare link.
Ok mayyybe you see where I'm going with this.
This "rebalancing" has just made Command Ships obsolete, as I can get a 7 link Loki or Legion, Tengu or Proteus, in less time than it takes to get to Command Ships. Plus I get better bonuses. For the T3's If I only want to fly T2 armor links, I can. But Command Ships, I have to have ALL warfare skills at V first.
So riddle me this Batman, how is this "rebalanced"?
What would make sense to me is having your racial bonus skill, Amarr-Armor, Caldari-Siege, Minnie-skirmish and Gally-Info ONLY at V. What you choose to do after you get into that, is your problem. But instead we have crappy faction battlecruisers.
That's just me, I could be wrong. Those are the passive bonus skills, not the skills for Links. If you're going fleet command route you absolutely must have all 4 of these skills at 5 because they benefit the whole fleet even if there are no tankers for shield, for example, larger buffer is always welcomed. |
Mr Doctor
Los Polos Hermanos. Happy Cartel
15
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Posted - 2013.06.26 03:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
They also arent rebalanced yet, thats later, this is just a skill shuffle. Command ship rebalance is my number one thing I'm looking forward to, cant wait! Well T3 frigs actually... but in the foreseeable future, command ships. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
571
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 12:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:Those are the passive bonus skills, not the skills for Links. If you're going fleet command route you absolutely must have all 4 of these skills at 5 because they benefit the whole fleet even if there are no tankers for shield, for example, larger buffer is always welcomed. It also ensures you have the ability to fit the links that are needed by the fleet, even if your ship does not provide a bonus to them. I think that is a reasonable flexibility to expect out of a command ship pilot.
You want to fly command with less SP invested? Fly a combat battlecruiser or a strategic cruiser. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
177
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 12:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:Those are the passive bonus skills, not the skills for Links. If you're going fleet command route you absolutely must have all 4 of these skills at 5 because they benefit the whole fleet even if there are no tankers for shield, for example, larger buffer is always welcomed. It also ensures you have the ability to fit the links that are needed by the fleet, even if your ship does not provide a bonus to them. I think that is a reasonable flexibility to expect out of a command ship pilot. You want to fly command with less SP invested? Fly a combat battlecruiser or a strategic cruiser. Why would i need armored warfare or information warfare to 5 if i want to fly Vulture or Claymore? all 4 warfare skills to 5 as prereq to command ships is just lame time sink and doesnt make any sense. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
571
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 12:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Why would i need armored warfare or information warfare to 5 if i want to fly Vulture or Claymore? all 4 warfare skills to 5 as prereq to command ships is just lame time sink and doesnt make any sense. Did you even read Eija-Riitta Veitonen's post? The link skills give passive bonuses to everyone beyond any link modules you are running. Not having them is a hole in your fleet boosting and you will not be allowed positions for boosting in your fleet without them unless there are a shortage of boosters. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
158
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Posted - 2013.06.27 12:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jexal Mirat wrote:I'm kinda confuzzled as to the why the fack did they do it that way?
So I need to have all Warfare links now at V, to fly any Command Ship.
Explain to me how this makes sense;
To fly a Damnation, which is an armor bonus command ship. Why the hell do I need to have Siege Warfare at V to fly it now? This is a goddamned armor bonus ship. If I'm going to be using 3 (or more) links on it, one of them sure as snot is NOT going to be a fricking Siege Warfare link.
To fly a Vulture, which is an shield bonus command ship. Why the hell do I need to have Armor Warfare at V to fly it now? This is a goddamned shield bonus ship. If I'm going to be using 3 (or more) links on it, one of them sure as snot is NOT going to be a fricking Armor Warfare link.
Ok mayyybe you see where I'm going with this.
This "rebalancing" has just made Command Ships obsolete, as I can get a 7 link Loki or Legion, Tengu or Proteus, in less time than it takes to get to Command Ships. Plus I get better bonuses. For the T3's If I only want to fly T2 armor links, I can. But Command Ships, I have to have ALL warfare skills at V first.
So riddle me this Batman, how is this "rebalanced"?
What would make sense to me is having your racial bonus skill, Amarr-Armor, Caldari-Siege, Minnie-skirmish and Gally-Info ONLY at V. What you choose to do after you get into that, is your problem. But instead we have crappy faction battlecruisers.
That's just me, I could be wrong.
Bold for emphasis and underlined for additional emphasis.
Just because it doesn't match your ideas for rebalancing doesn't mean it isn't rebalancing.
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Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Unicorn Enterprise
109
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Posted - 2013.06.28 00:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Why would i need armored warfare or information warfare to 5 if i want to fly Vulture or Claymore? all 4 warfare skills to 5 as prereq to command ships is just lame time sink and doesnt make any sense. Did you even read Eija-Riitta Veitonen's post? The link skills give passive bonuses to everyone beyond any link modules you are running. Not having them is a hole in your fleet boosting and you will not be allowed positions for boosting in your fleet without them unless there are a shortage of boosters. You guys seem to be misunderstanding Leadership skills.
There are four groups of skills in leadership tree:
- Command group: Leadership, Wing Command and Fleet Command - allow you to distribute your (or from booster above you in fleet rank) boosts onto your fellow fleet members, squad, wing and fleet respectively.
- Passive boost group: Armored Warfare, Information Warfare, Siege Warfare and Skirmish Warfare - these apply passive boosts to all fleet members your above skill group and fleet position allows you to, 2% Armor hp, 2% targeting range, 2% shield hp and 2% agility per skill level respectively. Up to 10% each. These are always good to have to max in fleet regardless of composition.
- Specialist group: Armored Warfare Specialist, Information Warfare Specialist, Siege Warfare Specialist and Skirmish Warfare Specialist - now these enable you to use appropriate warfare links, and give you 100% link efficiency per level, up to 5x of the base link power.
- Support skill group: Warfare Link Specialist - grants 10% bonus per level to every installed link's efficiency.
There are 2 more skills that fall to Passive boost and Specialist groups respectively: Mining Foreman and Mining Director. Former adds 2% mining yeld passive bonus, the latter allows operation of mining links in the same way as other specialist skills do. I left those out because they are specific to miners only.
Leadership V and 4 combat passive boost skills to 5 are highly recommended for any seasoned pilot. And those are actually now required to train commandship class, which is good. Link-specific skills are to be trained separately per each group at pilot's discretion. |
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