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Alfius Togra
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Posted - 2003.07.30 09:59:00 -
[1]
It has come to my attension that in my corp anyway and i suspect in others those with cruisers and above are the only ones deemed fit to fight human opponants. I mean fine leave the noobs out but I think that if all the people like me who fly decent battle frigs were to join in with the fight we could not only gang up on larger ships but give cover and provide more targets for the bad guys to shoot at.
I believe that their are 2 ways that battle frigs can be usful in large scale engagements
1) they can play it safe, equip rail guns and an m12 perhaps then fire from a safe distance while the cruisers take the heat
2) they can gang together and swarm the big enemy ships with close range weapons like neutron blasters, if you were flying a battleship and you had half a dozen or more tristrans or similar flying metres from your hull pummeling you from all angles and generally slowly eating your shields what would you do .... sure u can take em out in 1 or 2 hits but first u gotta lock onto the buggers so basically tour sitting there getting all worked up maybe swtting down 1 or 2 while there are 5 more jumping in to join the fight ... all the while you dont notice the cruiser coming up behind you just about to finish u.
See what i mean ..... this is to the influential ppl in my and other corps .... reconsider your tactics you would do well to bring more guns along even if they are fairly small..
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Miso
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Posted - 2003.07.30 10:03:00 -
[2]
Frigates as the new drones eh??
Of course, anyone with even the tiniest bit of tactical knowledge will appreciate the finer points of deploying frigates in a fire fight... but most of Eve do seem to be oblivious to this.
Some of my best hits have come with tactical frigate fire.
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Dead
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Amarit Ska
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Posted - 2003.07.30 10:04:00 -
[3]
If I were you I'd join another corp.
We don't discriminate based on the size of your ship, or anything else ;)
Vote with your warp drive and take your help somewhere it'll be appreciated!
AS
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Ruulex DeMors
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Posted - 2003.07.30 10:11:00 -
[4]
From experience, after the range penalties, and damage modifiers were changed, I took my Moa against 3 frigates from my Corp. One was jamming my turrets and the other two were attacking. I couldn't do much, I took one "out" but the other two finished me off. Frigates are very effective if used correctly.
Another note, very fast frigates are hard to hit with the larger turrets, some can out run missiles.
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Interm-CEO for EVE Marshals
http://www.EVEMarshals.com |
Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2003.07.30 10:29:00 -
[5]
I'm a close combat frigate fighter and have had one offer to get into a Corp's frigate wing. Catch was I had to lead and built/train the whole wing.
Though I love my frigates, after over a month of playing I am finding myself looking into getting a cruiser, as there just doesn't seem to be anything worth doing as a solo-frigate fighter except hunting low NPC rats.
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.07.30 10:35:00 -
[6]
My own policy is:
I rather see my members back alive after a combat experience, therefor all frigate members can come but i urge them not too. Everyone in frigate who goes with the hunt is 100% on his own risk there, and my toleration to complaints afterwards is zero tollerance..
Little Disclaimer first:
Every member is treaten equal in my corp, has the same rights and the same votes. They are not ordered, they are not forced in any way and can go where they like.
It is because:
- I can take out frigates at 40km+ within less than 1 minute. at 20km its 1 salvo.
- Frigates are an easy kill, there the first target and the first to be podded. Since it is fairly easy to take them out pretty fast, and because of that you have 1 opponent less.
- War system and combat system is now more guerilla warfare, a single guy can criple a corp by attackin the weaker members he can defeat. Because of this there isnt much of a large combat where there is alot of room for frigates, people have to fly in fast and do the max ammount of dmg before their prey get away. Lets say your a huntergroup and you got frigates, they will be the first to get destroyed and pretty fast too and because of this the actual result you wanted is nihil..
If Eve becomes a place for large combat sceneries, with a hour combat as standard, maybe frigates will become an large aspect in the game... Therefor i still have to point out: Multiply the hp from all ships x 10 and keep current dmg the same.
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http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2003.07.30 10:56:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
My own policy is:
I rather see my members back alive after a combat experience, therefor all frigate members can come but i urge them not too. Everyone in frigate who goes with the hunt is 100% on his own risk there, and my toleration to complaints afterwards is zero tollerance..
I fully am aware that my chances as a frig fighter are smaller than someone in a cruiser. But jeesh where is the fun in combat when you know for 90% that you'll get out alive again? I know I like the uncertainty.
Sure, it's sheer kamikaze when I'd take on an opponent in my frig while ganged with a few cruisers. That's not what a frig pilot is about. Once you have 5-10 frigs as support to Cruiser/Battleships, they won't drop that fast... Sure, there's a risk, but then the risk is spread evenly amongst the other frig pilots.
It takes some training to work as a unit, but I think it'd be a lot of fun.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:04:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Riddari on 30/07/2003 11:04:51
Frigates DO NOT want to try to be long range support.
-They don't have enough range
-Their small weapons don't reach long distances
-Long range for a frigate is a prime range for a battleship, I can take any frigate out in one salvo with my battleship
Frigates only hope is to get close and circle the cruiser/battleships.
Any frigate fighting a "frigate long distance" battle is a dead frigate. Battleships dish out damage to 50-70km distance... Frigates can't shoot from that distance unless fitting as many targeting modules as possible.
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a history |
Alfius Togra
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:09:00 -
[9]
fine then neutron partical blasters it is but the fact still remains that many frigs that could be used are going to waste
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:10:00 -
[10]
Edited by: j0sephine on 30/07/2003 11:15:26
"Frigates can't shoot from that distance unless fitting as many targeting modules as possible."
Well, there's always Kestrel.(90k target range or more, with no modules)
... of course, being it's a missile boat, by the time the missiles crawl all that range the battle is already over for at least half an hour... ;s
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:15:00 -
[11]
Quote:
I fully am aware that my chances as a frig fighter are smaller than someone in a cruiser. But jeesh where is the fun in combat when you know for 90% that you'll get out alive again? I know I like the uncertainty.
Sure, it's sheer kamikaze when I'd take on an opponent in my frig while ganged with a few cruisers. That's not what a frig pilot is about. Once you have 5-10 frigs as support to Cruiser/Battleships, they won't drop that fast... Sure, there's a risk, but then the risk is spread evenly amongst the other frig pilots.
It takes some training to work as a unit, but I think it'd be a lot of fun.
Well, now i dont see working as a unit with frigates as an aspect of the game, since guerilla warfare/ alpha strike method is number 1 way to attack.
It takes for me 10 minutes to kill 10 frigates and perhaps pod some of its pilots with it, thats 1.5 mil in 10 minutes... Pilots who cannot let their ship escape since the action is too fast.
making ship hp x 10 would solve these problems and create real warfare as many off us thought how it should be. :)
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http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Arvis Ottoman
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:23:00 -
[12]
What about missle frigates? The Kestrel has a range of 60,000 km and 4 missle hardpoints. A large force of them with exhanced sensors, some ECM, and cruise missles could hang out at a BS's fringes and swamp a BS with EMP and crap.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:25:00 -
[13]
Missiles are too slow
60km, missiles go from 450-1000 m/sec I think
So that's 60+ seconds it takes for the missiles to arrive AND they can be taken out by a medium smartbomb.
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a history |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:34:00 -
[14]
"What about missle frigates?"
The missiles need love
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Demangel
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:41:00 -
[15]
Frigates can be a godsend in small or large droves especialy if you have the players to fly them and need to try not to lose too much cash on each possible fight.
They serve tons of uses, many people don't seem to think of as useful yet.
As cruiser escort as an anti frigate-frigate.
As a strike group capable of whittling down an enemy with guerilla tactics.
As a support group that acts like a cruisers drones.
As a missile defense group at least as capable if not more so as a good missile cruiser with nothing but defenders.
As drone swatters...
Scouts...
the list goes on and on, mainly because they are also so cost effective.
Take the anti missile group I mentioned a minute ago.
How much can a good missile cruiser cost? 4 million? more?
How many missiles tubes can it mount? 3-4? maybe one more (I forget honestly).
For 4 million ISK you could very easily have 15-20 frigates, each with one or two missile tubes... If one gets blown up it's not a big dent in your attack force...
But if your anti missile cruiser goes up in flames in a big fight and you don't have anything to back it up, say bye bye to your anti missile system and 4 million ISK worth of ship too.
If you use enough frigates for this role you can use that cruiser as an assault boat launching torpedoes and cruise missiles instead, or it's own missiles against the enemy frigates! If you lose a few frigates it won't mean an end to your defenses... just a weakening of them. And even if you lost ten it would cost less than if you lost that one cruiser.
I'd probably reccomend those frigate pilots get in close to the enemy if possible and use smart bombs and defenders while orbiting the enemy missile boats, and if possible fire normal turrets on outgoing missiles or the missile boats themselves to tickle em apart while the cruisers pound em into dust.
Take a tristan for example, that ship is great for all around duty when you don't know what your going tobe up against, it's got two turrets, a missile tube and a empty high slot...
Most people know energy drainers/disrupters stink most of the time since they don't do enough to matter in most one on one fights...
But how about 5 tristans or similarly general purpose frigates each with a nosferatu system or energy disruptor? in addition to thier other toys?
Each sucking 5-20 Cap per second or something like that? thats gonna make a dent for sure in that enemy ships capacitor in no time flat. and since it's being done with frigates you can stand to lose some of them and not totaly give up that capability.
All in all any fleet commander who doesn't make provisions for useing or fighting against frigates is not really cut out for thier job.
I know a ton of people could recite instances where frigates got thier asses handed to them by m0o or something... but there are too many horror stories from cruiser pilots who got thier ship whittled out from under them by frigates to ignore either 
Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you
Demangel > Dude... I would call..
Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet.
Galaxion > Just a bit.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:56:00 -
[16]
"But how about 5 tristans or similarly general purpose frigates each with a nosferatu system or energy disruptor? in addition to thier other toys?
Each sucking 5-20 Cap per second or something like that? thats gonna make a dent for sure in that enemy ships capacitor in no time flat."
... am afraid this would be very ineffective; the Nosferatu sucks some tiny amount of energy every 30 secs or so, iirc. The neutralizers are faster, but they drain lot of energy from its user as well and the frigates have small capacitor... in few seconds they would essentially render themselves immobile and defenseless.
Don't get me wrong, i love frigates it's just this doesn't sound like good use for them...
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colla tidet
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:58:00 -
[17]
Edited by: colla tidet on 30/07/2003 12:25:48
Edited by: colla tidet on 30/07/2003 12:01:35
 If two right handed men stood toe to toe, could either of them hit the other in the right ear?
Position in all combat is key.
All ships have there place.
"Let us have faith that right makes right, and in that faith let us to the end dare to do our duty as we understand it."
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Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2003.07.30 12:01:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Chai N'Dorr on 30/07/2003 12:01:51
Quote:
It takes for me 10 minutes to kill 10 frigates and perhaps pod some of its pilots with it, thats 1.5 mil in 10 minutes... Pilots who cannot let their ship escape since the action is too fast.
I think it'd take 10 frigs quicker than 10 minutes to down one cruiser, and definitely pod the pilot... that's more than 1,5M worth of damages.
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Inflatable Teen
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Posted - 2003.07.30 12:20:00 -
[19]
Battles always take place near a Stargate or a station so if 10 Frigates are attacking a BS the BS will just kill a few Frigates, pod the pilots, dock/jump and come back when shield/capac is up.
Last battle I was in we had 7 BS¦s against 9 BS¦s and there were no casualties and hardly any Armor/structure damage for either side.
If there had been a Crusier or a Frigate they would have been killed in an instance.
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Doomtech
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Posted - 2003.07.30 12:22:00 -
[20]
How about dive-bombing? Just came to my mind. I don't know atm if a frigate can equip a MWD, but let's say a Kestrel could. Wouldn't it be nice if it could "deliver" a full salvo of the deadliest torpedoes right at the enemy?
Of course, this might be a suicide action, but if "only a few" frigates could take out a BS with that tactic, it might be worth it.
Anyway, I don't have numbers or stats now. Was just an idea. 
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.30 12:28:00 -
[21]
"How about dive-bombing? Just came to my mind. I don't know atm if a frigate can equip a MWD, but let's say a Kestrel could."
No MWD, but 3xAFB will speed you up to 1km/sec and lasts for quite a while =)
"Wouldn't it be nice if it could "deliver" a full salvo of the deadliest torpedoes right at the enemy?"
Yes. :s
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Doomtech
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Posted - 2003.07.30 12:32:00 -
[22]
Ah, I see. :)
I wonder if someone ever tried this.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.30 13:25:00 -
[23]
Edited by: j0sephine on 30/07/2003 13:29:45
"I wonder if someone ever tried this."
uhmmmmaybe; there's some reasons why am currently crying in the patch review section over sub-par missile performance... :s
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.30 13:25:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Edited by: Riddari on 30/07/2003 11:04:51
Frigates DO NOT want to try to be long range support.
-They don't have enough range
-Their small weapons don't reach long distances
-Long range for a frigate is a prime range for a battleship, I can take any frigate out in one salvo with my battleship
Frigates only hope is to get close and circle the cruiser/battleships.
Any frigate fighting a "frigate long distance" battle is a dead frigate. Battleships dish out damage to 50-70km distance... Frigates can't shoot from that distance unless fitting as many targeting modules as possible.
Obviously you've never played with Breachers
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Riddari
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Posted - 2003.07.30 13:33:00 -
[25]
Breachers no. I do own one though. Started collecting ships while waiting for my armageddon to cook. It teaches you humbleness when you fly a frigate through 0.0 space. Something all bship pilots should try  , brings back memories (has it been nearly 3 months allready!).
45km range on the Breacher. Couple of missiles... yawn.. will they blow up en route or will they actually reach my ship? And will I just detonate a smartbomb and forget about that Breacher sitting 45km away throwing rocks at me?
Not having tried the Breacher though I can't say if it can not be useful for battle.
One aspect that frigate pilots hungry to battle should know. Big battles A R E L A G G Y.
None of this swooping in and out as the EVE trailer depicts.. your best bet is probably to click on "orbit at 1km", turn on your blasters and hope that it will work somehow.
For smaller encounters however this might work with 5 frigates picking at a battleship.. just pray it doesn't have large smartbombs 
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a history |
Shinana
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Posted - 2003.07.30 14:17:00 -
[26]
I was actually stuck in a frig for quite a bit, and during large battles, you tend to get ignored. Without faster targetting gear, a bship is wasting a lot of time targetting that silly frig with its small weapons, rather than taking out a cruiser with its 250s/650s/heavy mods. In large battles, I'd recommend the gulliver approach, if you have pilots in frigates. Give em some webs and some warp disruptors, and let em slow that battleship to a stop, and unable to go anywhere. Even with two mwds, he wont be going that fast once three webs are on him. Then let the cruisers pick that bship apart at their leisure. Fill your high slots with close in weaps of your choice, and maybe some missiles/smartbombs if youve got any (be wary of your other frigate friends when using these). As for low slots... I'd probably use overdrives, a fast frigate is a frigate that lives.
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.07.30 14:24:00 -
[27]
Frigates = cheap EW platform.
EW can do some amazing things as far as turning the tables in a large battle.
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Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2003.07.30 14:31:00 -
[28]
If you want a good EW frig, you can't do much better than the Maulus.
However, with the new "attack and you can't jump" rule coming in, I can see a flight of kestrels with cruise missiles being deadly to battleships.
Sure, a medium or large smartbomb can take a few missiles out. But only a few, and you can only use it so often.
Consider this: Each M-12 Launcher can hold 1 cruise missile. Each Kestrel holds 4 M-12s. Strap ABs onto the Kestrels, maybe some armor plating if you have extra power left, and have 4 kestrels swoop toward the bship (once it's already engaging a cruiser or two).
That's 16 cruise missiles, all they have to do to make sure ~10 of them hit is launch them one at a time.
If the bship has no defense against the missiles, well, boom. 16*350dmg=5600 damage
Heck, even 10 missiles hitting is 3500 damage.
And that's just the first volley. Mix those damage types up, and you'll be kicking his ass within a matter of a few seconds.
And that's just 4 Kestrels.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Nials Noir
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Posted - 2003.07.30 14:50:00 -
[29]
Il tell you a story that made me realise why frigate are good. I fly a mammoth, im not an afk trader, I had it ki8tted out, shield extender, sheild booster, 3 ABs, a couple of ODs an a araecargo expander, I had never lost it before, always ran just about any blockade.
Then I ran into a few player pirates at a gate(this was befrore the uber sentries of death all over the place). One MOA and a pair of Griffon class frigates. As far as I could tell Id just blow past them, then I got hit by the Griffons, 8 med slots between them, but they had no guns, after I got hit by webifiers and warp jammer, plus a target jammer or 3, my CAP just vanished, they had no weapons equipeed at all, just a pair of energy leechers each. I couldnt run my ABs to get away from the webs, I couldnt activate my shield booster nothing. Th destroyed my ship even after I paid them(buggers), but it taght me a valuable lesson, frigates do NOT suck, they are very valuable. Those two griffons outperformed the best equipped blackbird, and they cost a tiny amount, with the MOA to take out anyone who wouldnt comply they made an amazing team.
I plan to have a dedicated frigate wing in my corp, as if used correctly, a small group of frigates can totally outperfrom any cruiser for a fraction of the cost.
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The clone is a wonderful thing. It brought me back from the brink of death and now I am reborn.
Noir Enterprises Site |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.30 14:58:00 -
[30]
Frigates can be deadly in the right hands. It's just that often, they're never in the right hands.
If the target is already preoccupied with the 'bigger' targets, a wing of breachers or kestrels can cause serious damage from up close. Yah, I know sounds strange but they really don't want to be out at 40km where even with my gimped artillery I'm capable of causing 150+ wreckings.
And the value of a good frigate slashing run can't be underestimated. There are various tactics for using mixed forces that most people have yet to investigate. Maybe when the combat lag situation tones down, we'll start seeing more mixed forces.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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