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Captain Dragotahl
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Posted - 2005.09.28 04:28:00 -
[1]
Ok, for starters I would like to tell CCP that I love the new missile changes and think it helps those who wish to focus more on the caldari side of "missile spewing monstrosities" to quote the info listed on the cerebus. I also believe that ccp has balanced shield tanking very well and can now see a balance between someone with my skills as a shield tanker against someone with equal skills as an armor tanker.
but HERE is the problem with cerb and ultimately missiles. DAMAGE. I consider myself a veteran shield tanker with 32 million skill points devoted mainly to the life of a caldari pilot and quickly trained my missile skills up with the new patch. I recently sat down with a friend of mine, who happens to be 10mil sp's less then me, and tested my cerb against his zealot, and heres where i have a problem. NO MATTER WHAT SETUP, OR HOW I USE THIS SHIP I CANNOT BREAK THIS TANK. It doesnt matter if i use three damage modifiers or none, a simple tank on it seems like almost any HAC or higher and the damage of the cerebus can not overtake it.
There are two MAJOR problems with this. Number ONE is that as a shield tanker im supposed to be able to tank massive amounts of damage over a shorter period of time but not be able to handle long engagements, and with such a lower damage output your expecting a shield tanker to be able to go the long haul and spew missiles until the end of time (at which most tanks will still be standing by the way). TWO is that your telling new players that they should "focus" on specific areas in the game that interest them in order to keep up with us veterans, but if IM a veteran and i cant beat someone 10million sp's beneath me in a balanced fight against 2 "equal" HAC's, how much can you expect a beginner to keep up if he focuses on missiles??? your asking newbs to focus on missiles and then elminating their usefullness from the game and this is unnacceptable. When me and my friend sat down (he is just as perplexed as me) and did the math we concluded that his ship and mine averagede about the same amount of damage, but because the rate of fire of the missile launchers are so much higher that it just couldnt produce the damage to overtake the tank. One of two things i cann see can fix this, either imput a damage modifier into your missile launchers or decrease the rof of launchers more to put the launchers en par with guns (which i dont like personally).
One thing I tend to agree with most people about is that i have a advantage in missiles because i dont have a set range and i can focus more on specific damage types and that ships main weakness, BUT if i cant break the tank from ANY range, whats the point of being out of my opponents range?? (this makes a draw) Not to mention CCP has given ships who have a set range so many ways of getting to their optimal so this "advantage" quickly dissapears.
Ultimately I hope that the 4 months of training I have put in missiles will not be wasted. Come on, you guys have a real good start with these new changed, but caldair HAC's just cant keep up with the others. Lol next time ill do one on eagle, but after testing the cerebus for a full two weeks I have become so enraged that I just had to say something. Here's hoping someone over there likes me.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.09.28 04:39:00 -
[2]
well, i know im sounding like a broken record here but, it would be nice if the eagle and cerberus were a little better, ive stated what is wrong with the cerberus so much now im not going to repeat it
the eagle looks good on paper but it has pretty horrible dps as well
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.09.28 04:44:00 -
[3]
I think we need more Cerebus boost posts. 3-4 a week just isn't cutting it folks
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.09.28 04:49:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Meridius
I think we need more Cerebus boost posts. 3-4 a week just isn't cutting it folks
why cant people just keep it all in one thread :(
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.09.28 05:00:00 -
[5]
Because people don't read the forums. Jim and myself have posted on a dozen or two Cerberus and Eagle threads, but its BECAUSE of the fact that pretty much everyone AGREES that the ships are weak and underpowered that they tend to fall off the first forum page after a day or so. Its the DEBATEABLE topics that stick around and get lots of posts.
So, I think the only course of action is to make outrageous demands concerning the Cerb and the Eagle in order to cause a debate and make people actually keep posting on the thread and thus consolidate our views.
I'll start us off. Give the Cerberus 5 Siege Launchers, 10,000 shields and armor, and make the Eagle invincible. And have a death beam. 
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Sorja
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Posted - 2005.09.28 15:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Give the Cerberus 5 Siege Launchers, 10,000 shields and armor, and make the Eagle invincible. And have a death beam.
What about the Cerb having a cruise launcher CPU/grid reduction as the Manticore has?
Just an idea here, I haven't thought about it, leaving to the spreadsheet kings (waves to Electro and jO  ) the work to compute how good or bad it would be.
Maybe a reduction in CPU/grid cruise requirements so that you can only fit 3 or 4 with good skills and 1 or 2 assaults on top.
But of course, it seems easier to make assaults worth using or to implement close range heavy missiles.
Not sure... it has been said so many times the Caldari HACs are subpar and too limited in role that I don't know what to expect from CCP, if ever 
Kill mails |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.09.28 15:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sorja
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Give the Cerberus 5 Siege Launchers, 10,000 shields and armor, and make the Eagle invincible. And have a death beam.
What about the Cerb having a cruise launcher CPU/grid reduction as the Manticore has?
Just an idea here, I haven't thought about it, leaving to the spreadsheet kings (waves to Electro and jO ) the work to compute how good or bad it would be.
Maybe a reduction in CPU/grid cruise requirements so that you can only fit 3 or 4 with good skills and 1 or 2 assaults on top.
But of course, it seems easier to make assaults worth using or to implement close range heavy missiles.
Not sure... it has been said so many times the Caldari HACs are subpar and too limited in role that I don't know what to expect from CCP, if ever
cerberus is a cruiser, it should fit cruiser weapons.
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Ante
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Posted - 2005.09.28 16:03:00 -
[8]
I did a couple calculations and came to the conclusion that if the Cerberus had a cruiser sized rocket launcher with a "charge rate" of 2 (assuming that means it fires 2 rockets every cycle) it would reach 450 dps ish with fairly maxed skills + gank fit. This is still half the dps of a gank fitted Deimos, but enough.
If 450 dps seems too high for missiles in CCPs eyes they could always make a cruiser sized rocket launcher with righer rof. On a Cerberus with maxed skills it would have an optimal of ~20km which is ample for a high dps weapon.
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Denrace
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Posted - 2005.09.28 16:03:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Meridius
I think we need more Cerebus boost posts. 3-4 a week just isn't cutting it folks
why cant people just keep it all in one thread :(
because the devs are not responding even remotely to our requests for these HACs to be boosted.
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Custom Sigs Made. Convo for details
http://photobucket.com/albums/b4/Denrace/
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Bagdh Dearg
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Posted - 2005.09.28 16:27:00 -
[10]
Hehe well my thread was more like a personal request for opinions rather then my own opinion you'd have to go off topic to start a discusion(Not that its difficult  )
But yeah it would be great for the Cerb. to get a good boost. My only fear is that missiles will become more and more like Turrets with Cruiser Sized rocket launchers etc. until the point comes when Missiles are basically a fourth turret system with different graphics.
Thats my main beef with the Missile Readjustment. They basically turned them into a bad turret class. The missiles were unique,No other weapon system worked like it.
Hopefully Missiles will get a buff that gives back some of their previous individuality or at least make them the most kick ass turret system out their
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An tÚ nach bhfuil lßidir nÝ folßir d¾ bheith glic
-He who is not strong must be crafty |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2005.09.28 16:45:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 28/09/2005 16:45:08
Originally by: Ante
I did a couple calculations and came to the conclusion that if the Cerberus had a cruiser sized rocket launcher with a "charge rate" of 2 (assuming that means it fires 2 rockets every cycle) it would reach 450 dps ish with fairly maxed skills + gank fit. This is still half the dps of a gank fitted Deimos, but enough.
Never. Gank-deimos will do around 750dps with t2 hammerhead, 5 ions t2, 5 mfs t2.
And after that, you don't have much room to fit anything else. No mwd, nothing.
More realistic would be 4 mfs t2, then damage tops at 650 dps.
It's far, far away from the 900 dps you are talking about.
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
---
Originally by: theRaptor
Its even funnier when half the forum is crying for damage mod nerfs and the other half for plate nerfs. 
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Ethan Tomlinson
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Posted - 2005.09.28 16:55:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Ethan Tomlinson on 28/09/2005 16:55:25
what about diemos with 5 t2 neutrons as many t2 dmg mods as will fit and 10 t2 hammerheads at its optimal
and maxed skills...
whats the dps?
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.09.28 17:25:00 -
[13]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 28/09/2005 17:26:41
Well seeing as how last time I checked it is impossible to fit out a feasible T2 Neutron Blaster setup, and the Deimos can only use 4 drones, no, you can't get any more damage than the setup listed above.
Edit- Actually I remember working out a Deimos's DPS a few weeks back I think, I recall it being in the 600 DPS ballpark. Not sure if I included the 100 DPS from 4 T2 Ogres though.
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Ethan Tomlinson
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Posted - 2005.09.28 18:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ethan Tomlinson on 28/09/2005 18:30:53
well i was thinkin maybe 5 t2 neutrons 10 t2 medium drones which u should be able to fit if you can fit 4 heavies and maybe 4-5 t2 or shadow serpentis mag field stabs and 1-2 t2 or faction RCU's
I just want to know what dps this thing is capable of you must be able to fit all that with max skills if not thats sad...
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.09.28 20:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Meridius
I think we need more Cerebus boost posts. 3-4 a week just isn't cutting it folks
why cant people just keep it all in one thread :(
Because if people dont keep posting over and over about it CCP will never do anything about it. Not everyone flys a Raven that uses missiles. The whole reason they redid the missiles was because of the hundreds and hundreds of posts by people complaining about the raven being overpowered. In the end they got what they wanted in a reballanced Raven but ships like the Cerb are totally FUBAR. I just hope it doesnt take hundreds and hundreds of post before CCP finally responds and fixes this.
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Captain Dragotahl
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Posted - 2005.09.28 21:40:00 -
[16]
I agree completely. They did a very good job and I believe Raven is pretty well balanced, but Cerberus is really screwed up. But everyone keeps falling away from what I believe is gonna be the biggest argument to make CCP fix the problem, and that is that CCP is telling new players that in order to keep up with veterans such as myself they need to specialize on specific skill sets that they enjoy and focus. However, if a new player decided to focus on missiles they are effectively cutting themselves out of the games. If someone with my skill points cant defeat someone ten million points below me then there is no chance of a newb that is specialized in missiles of being to either. CCP if you want people to specialize in a group of skills then each group has to be balanced. Cruiser level guns shouldnt be owning heavy missiles as bad as they are.
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O'Sirius
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Posted - 2005.09.28 22:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Captain Dragotahl
Cruiser level guns shouldnt be owning heavy missiles as bad as they are.
Didn't I read a real big thread not too long ago about how cruiser level guns sucked butt?
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Lafiele
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Posted - 2005.09.28 22:30:00 -
[18]
This is a great post from the start.
From my point of view I have been experimenting with my raven versus eagle for l3 missions.
Sadly the eagle with 250mm prototype guns does more damage versus the raven.
Miner - KristofferTr
Fighter - Whitelitch
Tactical - Lafiele |
DarkStar251
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Posted - 2005.09.28 23:06:00 -
[19]
I would be the Zealot Pilot in Captain Dragotahls post.
Like he says, hes about 8/9m SP ahead of me, and where he is specialised in Caldari I'm pretty generalised in Gallente/Amarr/Caldari.
We havent just had one or two tests with this, even if he goes max dmg in his cerb he cant overcome my tank, and even if he goes max tank he cant tank my dmg.
Of course there are a *few* things the Cerb has over the Zealot, the Cerb can become quite the frig killer with assault launchers, but I'd really agree it needs some kind of a boost!
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) |
Gungankllr
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Posted - 2005.09.28 23:38:00 -
[20]
.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.09.28 23:39:00 -
[21]
If my cerberus got another launcher, its kinetic damage bonus converted to an all types damage bonus, and finally a second damage bonus, it *might* be useful.
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Proud member of the [23].
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Captain Dragotahl
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Posted - 2005.09.28 23:51:00 -
[22]
actually that might be a pretty good idea. What if instead of the flight time bonus on the HAC skill, it was trasnformed to a 5 percent bonus to all missile damage types. That way we get a bit more damage, and we are now allowed to use the other missile types while still focusing on kinetic. I dont know I cant really find something to make this any better. You cant really funk with heavy missile stats as they are because then you will be making all the other missile chunkers a lot better when they are just fine. I mean ferox does quite well with missiles. Its just the cerebus that has soo much problems competing with other HACS. I even think the eagle performs better. If anyone can think of something that ccp could do bonus wise to make the cerb better as an indavidual ship i think ccp would consider it more seriously.
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.09.29 05:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
cerberus is a cruiser, it should fit cruiser weapons.
Ah yes, obviously.
That a frigate can use cruise launchers doesn't offer the opportunity to think outside the box?
Kill mails |
Ivan Ho
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Posted - 2005.09.29 06:52:00 -
[24]
totaly agree, that caldari HAC's need lot of work,i personaly wanted to train for cerebus, but with new developments it has put me off, and cerebusis once again on back burner ;(
petition SIGNED
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.09.29 07:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sorja
Originally by: Jim Raynor
cerberus is a cruiser, it should fit cruiser weapons.
Ah yes, obviously.
That a frigate can use cruise launchers doesn't offer the opportunity to think outside the box?
Yeah i'd like some Mega Pulses on my Zealot as well 
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babylonstew
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Posted - 2005.09.29 08:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sorja
Originally by: Jim Raynor
cerberus is a cruiser, it should fit cruiser weapons.
Ah yes, obviously.
That a frigate can use cruise launchers doesn't offer the opportunity to think outside the box?
ah thanks for that comment, i now know why i spent 2 months plus training for my races preier combat vessels, so i can fit frigate weaponery and take out a frig \o/ , lets see just how much every other races hac users would appreciate it if they were relegated to small turrets, not fun is it
Quoted From MouseOnMars
Especially the Machariel, which can cast level 1 sh*t your pants upon appearing on the battlefield |
Glassback
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Posted - 2005.09.29 09:00:00 -
[27]
HAC, is ir right or worng list.
1. Gal HAC's = Right
2. Amarr HAC's = Right
3. Minm HAC's = Right (ish)
3. Caldari HAC's = Worng
(Worng is the new pwnd, us it) |
000Hunter000
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Posted - 2005.09.29 11:15:00 -
[28]
And this is the reason my pretty cerb is gathering dust in some obscure hangar somewhere far away...
It's a bloody HAC!!! Give it s 6th launcher slot and change the bonus in damage for all types not just kinetic, jeez by now everybody knows u need to tank kinetic when facing caldari ships.
signature? What signature? ;) |
Ralus
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Posted - 2005.09.29 13:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: 000Hunter000
And this is the reason my pretty cerb is gathering dust in some obscure hangar somewhere far away...
It's a bloody HAC!!! Give it s 6th launcher slot and change the bonus in damage for all types not just kinetic, jeez by now everybody knows u need to tank kinetic when facing caldari ships.
You could donate your ship to me
I'm not quite at the being able to fly level but i've always waned a cerb and i'm slowly gathering the funds, I like missiles and I think it will fill the needed role of extra firepower support for group lvl 4 missions, so pants or not I can't wait till I get me one of those!
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2005.09.29 13:47:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 29/09/2005 13:47:35
Well I am Caldari and also trying to specialize on missiles. It looks like I will not go higher than cruiser/bc. Simply there are only 7 ships that I can use (mostly pure missiles):
kestrel - very good ship
crow - very good ship
manticore - has some use but limited
caracal - NPC, frig killing
cerberus - NPC, frig killing
ferox - not pure missile ship, NPC, limited PVP use
raven - very good ship
Basicaly this shows 3 things:
1. light missiles, rockets and torps are most usefull, heavies, cuises are not realy usable
2. most missile ships are good only at NPCing, the better PvP ships (except Raven) are non missile/Caldari
3. 2 frigs (kestrel, crow), 1 battleship for all around use in their class. All other classes have some limited use.
I have to admit that I do not count the blackbird which is an excelent ship, but it's main strength is EW, not missiles.
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