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Brahim Marlock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
   |
Posted - 2013.05.02 13:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi Guys.
I'm looking for answers about a theme that has already been discussed thousands of time, but I still can get some answers / final statements about Angular velocity, Tracking and Webifier considering Turrets and Brawling Frigates.
I've read this one wich was the most intersting : [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=102375[/url]
So... Considering tracking and angular speed, no ship orientation is ever considered, just the speed vectors in a particular time. Transversal speed vector and distance between targets allow you to deducte the radial velocity.
First fun fact : It means that angular velocity between two ships is strictly reciprocal / Mutual. Radial velocity from A to B is always the same from B to A (confirmed during ingame short tests reading the overview numbers), even if signature and signature resolution could mitigate hit chance. But for now we will not consider those factors.
So... If you are orbiting another ship compared to just standing still, you are increasing radial velocity for both the target and yourself, and making it less likely to hit the target for both of you.
Considering turret damages, orbiting is then a pure defensive move :
Increasing radial velocity (more defense) at the expense of greater difficulty to hit the target (less offense).
and has the same effect on the other ship.
Brawling frigates is based on the capacity to max out angular speed to avoid turret damage by bypassing by far the ennemy turret tracking capacities. This is done my maximg speed and a very short orbit range, and keeping the lowest signature possible.
But using a webifier will reduce target speed... and that will have for effect to reduce the mutual radial speed.
So still condirefing turret damages, using a webifier is the opposite of orbiting, it is an offensive move :
reduces radiale velocity (less defense), to increase hit chance (more offense)
Again, Radial velocity reduction applies on both ships.
On the paper, I find it a little weird to use webifier on a brawling frigate which will negate some radial velocity. Wouldn't it be more wise to use a (or another) tracking disruptor which only affect the target tracking resolution ?
In practice, I'm confused... Recenlty, I've got my Dramiel raped by a webifying merlin. He managed to hit me a lot while I had a hard time landing some projectiles on him. How that if we share the same radial velocity and considering the signature of those ships are similar ? I know the blasters to have better tracking, but I think the merlin don't have any tracking bonuses which the Dramiel has.
What do you think ? Thanks for you're help decrypting eve's mechanics. |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
620
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 13:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Do you know the merlin's fit? It May have had a tracking enhancer in a low slot, improving his tracking. Additionally, do you have max gun skills? If not, consider he may have, hence the improved hit rate. Lastly, what ammo was used? If he used void, it may be that you were in his optimal while he was outside yours. Projectiles do live and die outside falloff, but if you are in his optimal, it will hurt a lot more.
As for a web, it's not always about maximizing damage. He has a web to keep targets from getting away. A scrammwd dramiel or condor is faster than a scrammwd Merlin. Without a web, the faster ship can pull range and escape. The merlin is desperate to keep you close. The web helps serve that purpose. This is also why people dual prob.
Oh and you do have good drone skills right? A dramiel needs its drones. |
Brahim Marlock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 14:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Note that I didn't want to turn this into a "Why did I loss a Dramiel to a Merlin ?"
The point I particulary interested in are :
Is the Radial Velocity the same for A to B, and B to A ? I think so but...
And then, if the answer is yes...
Do you agree that Webifier may have a downside on the Radial Velocity a brawling frigate is desperate to keep high ?
But the Dramiel / Merlin case is still interesting. Here are the very probable fits of the Merlin :
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=19278741
And my Dramiel
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=19495931
I will change this for armor tank (no signature malus) / web / tracking disruptor and lose the MWD.
But still... wondering about the webifier if it is really needed. I don't want to put down the radial Velocity.
I have almost maxed out Gunnery Skills, and decent Drone skills. But the warrior II seems to be totally ineffective.
Maybe a Halo set was involved ? |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University
Ivy League
116
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 14:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
web is not for reducing radial velocity in frig fights
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Brahim Marlock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 14:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:web is not for reducing radial velocity in frig fights
Agreed. It's about range control.
But won't you aggree it may put down the radial velocity a little bit, as a unwanted secondary effect ? |
feihcsiM
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
220
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 15:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
I see what you are saying, and yes a web could reduce your radial velocity slightly.
However if you don't fit a web but your opponent has one he can just keep at range - If you were set to orbit your webbed (and therefore slower) ship will run right after him trying to catch up to establish orbit and will effectively reduce your radial velocity to zero. If instead you try to run away in another direction his faster ship can still keep range, again reducing your radial to near zero.
Against a blaster frigate with a significant tank like the Merlin that isn't a good place to be.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
761
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 15:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Brahim Marlock wrote:But using a webifier will reduce target speed... and that will have for effect to reduce the mutual radial speed.
So still condirefing turret damages, using a webifier is the opposite of orbiting, it is an offensive move :
No, it increases radial velocity for both ships, assuming only one ship is webbing.
Oh god. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
266
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 15:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Primary usage of Web is to keep range control. If you and the enemy are scrammed and you have the only web then you are in control of range. So you can pull or push range towards the enemy so that you keep him within your optimal ranges even if he tries to run away. Furthermore, if you feel things getting bad you can try to pull range to reduce his damage if he is short range or go outside scram range and run away.
Secondary usage of Web is to make large weapons hit better small ships. This is usually something you face when you are in a Cruiser or BS and are fighting a Frigate. Then you want your medium to large guns or missiles to simply hit better (or at all). |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
2079
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 17:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
1.) A web is often used for range control.
2.) Imagine two ships set to orbit each other. They dont' simply meet up, stop, then start circling in nice neat circles, but instead start circling in a very dynamic fashion that often results in oblong orbits. This is because one ship will find itself not in it's optimal orbit sometime (early on) in the fight and attempt to correct it by flying towards or away from the target. Using a web on your opponent results in them being ~50% slower, allowing your faster ship to easily dictate range and orbit. This can create an advantage that the faster ship can utilize (by fitting smaller guns, increasing orbit speed, enabling them to get better hits or by fitting large guns, decreasing orbit speed, and dealing top damage). If both players fit webs, and both fit the same prop mods, etc.. then the general result is the speed of both ships is reduced to the point that tracking advantages become minimized, although overheating AB's is a trick some people use to regain that advantage.
|
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
335
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 22:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Brahim Marlock wrote:
Is the Radial Velocity the same for A to B, and B to A ? I think so but...
Absolutely not |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
768
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 22:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
It is.
Oh god. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
794
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 23:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
The Stasis webifier is the single most powerful module in Eve small scale warfare.
And you're wrong about the web not having a significant role to play in tracking. Lets say i'm in a rail incursus that goes say.. 600 m/s under a web and has godawful tracking; while you're in a slasher that goes 700 m/s under a web.
Now if the slasher could just orbit the immobile incursus at 500 the incursus wouldn't hit a single shot. However because of how little the speed difference is the slasher actually doesn't have a chance in hell.
Speed and knowing how to use it is the greatest tracking enhancer in this game.
BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Tsukino Stareine
EVE University
Ivy League
117
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 00:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:Brahim Marlock wrote:
Is the Radial Velocity the same for A to B, and B to A ? I think so but...
Absolutely not
palm, meet face. |
Brahim Marlock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 05:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thanks for all the answers.
What I understand is that, in theory, if the ships were both orbiting in a perfect fashion... a web could have a slightly effect on radial velocity (downgrade).
But
in practice, being webbed prevent you to position your ship @ your desired orbiting range, resulting in chaotique trajectories that might just ruin both the radial velocity and range dictation your trying to achieve, resulting in droping both defense and ofense of you're brawling frigate.
do we reach a consensus with this statement ? |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
769
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 07:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Brahim Marlock wrote:What I understand is that, in theory, if the ships were both orbiting in a perfect fashion...
If they are orbiting in perfect unison (range, speed etc.), there will be 0 radial velocity.
Quote:a web could have a slightly effect on radial velocity (downgrade).
It would increase radial velocity unless both ships are using a web, then it goes back down to 0.
Quote:in practice, being webbed prevent you to position your ship @ your desired orbiting range, resulting in chaotique trajectories that might just ruin both the radial velocity and range dictation your trying to achieve, resulting in droping both defense and ofense of you're brawling frigate. Yeah, don't worry about it. If another frigate has you webbed and is orbiting you very fast within your weapon range, the best defence would be to stop your ship completely and use a TD. I don't think this situation is common in frig fights though.
Oh god. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
798
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 07:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Brahim Marlock wrote:What I understand is that, in theory, if the ships were both orbiting in a perfect fashion... If they are orbiting in perfect unison (range, speed etc.), there will be 0 radial velocity. Quote:a web could have a slightly effect on radial velocity (downgrade). It would increase radial velocity unless both ships are using a web, then it goes back down to 0. Quote:in practice, being webbed prevent you to position your ship @ your desired orbiting range, resulting in chaotique trajectories that might just ruin both the radial velocity and range dictation your trying to achieve, resulting in droping both defense and ofense of you're brawling frigate. Yeah, don't worry about it. If another frigate has you webbed and is orbiting you very fast within your weapon range, the best defence would be to stop your ship completely and use a TD. I don't think this situation is common in frig fights though.
Actually the best defense would be to align out and web..
very soon that frig will have to start flying after you.. Then pew pew low-transversal-DEAD
BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
769
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Posted - 2013.05.03 07:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Maybe.
Oh god. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
798
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 08:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
It is.
Believe me, i speak frig relatively fluently.
BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
769
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 08:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Let's assume the frigates are identical in every way. What advantage does the defending frigate gain?
Oh god. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
799
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 10:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Let's assume the frigates are identical in every way. What advantage does the defending frigate gain?
None, not really my point.
The value of a web is not something that can be explained just with pointing at tracking numbers in relation to velocity.
BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
776
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Posted - 2013.05.03 10:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Yeah, tracking isn't as important for frig fights.
Oh god. |
Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
798
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 13:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tracking isn't as important in Frig fights?
Okay, take an Amarr ship. Small pulses. Hull without tracking bonuses. Orbit a Frigate at 500 who has a Tracking bonus and is using small caliber guns. Heck, uses mutual single webifiers if you like.
Get back to me with the results.
...
OP's logic is a bit sketchy. I get how he reached the theory but the post shows a lack of working understanding of the mechanics. Despite Webbing largely being a range control tool, his logic that webbing doesn't make sense because the effect is mutual in terms of tracking doesn't hold water.
So if you're in a slow Frigate and something like a Slasher is orbiting you close and you use a web on it, you're suddenly able to track it. You're able to hit it, which is a huge gain over only getting glancing hits or missing entirely. In this case it's not that important that in doing so the Slasher will score better hit qualities on you.
Lets look at this conversely. You're a Frigate. You're fast and you brawl. A target that is struggling to hit you can mitigate your speed advantage somewhat by manually flying in the direction you're orbiting. This can usually be the difference between tracking you with no issues and not tracking you at all. If you web that target they're suddenly a lot able to manage transversal with their own piloting.
Obviously there are many other advantages to webs beyond assisting tracking, but that is indeed one of their functions. Unless the pilots have identical skills, identical fits, making identical choices simultaneously, the fact that maintaining a high or low radial velocity has consequences either way isn't relevant to the intended effect of the web in a specific situation.
Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
776
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 13:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
Halete wrote:Orbit a Frigate at 500
Why would I do that? I don't want to orbit frigates, which is why it's not as important. Well for me, at least.
Oh god. |
Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
798
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 13:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Halete wrote:Orbit a Frigate at 500 Why would I do that? I don't want to orbit frigates, which is why it's not as important. Well for me, at least.
You don't want to orbit Frigates? Oh I don't know what gave me that idea. Maybe that you said 'in Frig fights'. Where, true, you may not want to orbit at 500 regardless, but you will fight Frigates that will want to, and will do so whether you want it or not.
Against larger targets you are more often than not going to want to stay close to mitigate their own tracking. Equipping a web in this situation will not hurt you. It will slow them down and make it more difficult for them to lower your transversal by manually piloting. Your own orbit will be neater on a slower target and have a smoother re-approach at the edges which will give you less vulnerability if orbiting via the function. But in this case tracking should not be a pertinent issue.
If you're in a gang and aren't concerned about your own tracking then... you're not concerned about your own tracking so the topic is a bit moot. You'll be bringing a web along for all of the other bonuses it confers for your fleet regardless if you're a tackling brawler.
And if you're blobbing I strongly suggest you overlook this thread, you're wasting your time thinking about mechanics.
Riot Girl wrote:
For the sake of discussion, I'd prefer to assume the frigates are identical. In this example, I wouldn't be orbiting another frigate anyway and I'd see no reason why I should want to.
Nice ninja. For the sake of discussion I prefer to assume there's a game outside of EFT.
Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
776
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 13:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Oh god.
Oh god. |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
776
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Posted - 2013.05.03 13:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Okay, I edited a previous post to clarify something I would have thought was obvious to anyone following the thread.
Oh god. |
Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
798
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 14:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Removing all of your tangents is a bit different from clarifying on an obvious point, but yeah.
Pushing and pulling is far more important in Frig combat as stated.
But in addition, the OP had some fundamentally flawed ideas about webs and tracking. Concision and thoroughness are good when giving advise!
Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Brahim Marlock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 15:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Halete wrote:So if you're in a slow Frigate and something like a Slasher is orbiting you close and you use a web on it, you're suddenly able to track it. You're able to hit it, which is a huge gain over only getting glancing hits or missing entirely. In this case it's not that important that in doing so the Slasher will score better hit qualities on you.
Lets look at this conversely. You're a Frigate. You're fast and you brawl. A target that is struggling to hit you can mitigate your speed advantage somewhat by manually flying in the direction you're orbiting. This can usually be the difference between tracking you with no issues and not tracking you at all. If you web that target they're suddenly a lot able to manage transversal with their own piloting.
I'm aware of my lack of understanding of game mechanics, it's basicly the purpose of this post : clarify it, and explain why a Web would be better than a TD, when aboard a brawling frigate, with the following hypothesis : You're the fastest and most agile of the two frigates.
But I'm quite satisfied with your answer (second part, considering my hypothesis), and those who respond earlier in the same fashion :
a Web main purpose is range control, but it also reduce target maneuverability :
- which help you keep a neat orbit, keeping the radial under control
- Which prevent the target from manually steering to break the orbit, like flying manually the same direction as you are.
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Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 18:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Brahim Marlock wrote:
I'm aware of my lack of understanding of game mechanics, it's basicly the purpose of this post : clarify it, and explain why a Web would be better than a TD, when aboard a brawling frigate, with the following hypothesis : You're the fastest and most agile of the two frigates.
But I'm quite satisfied with your answer (second part, considering my hypothesis), and those who respond earlier in the same fashion :
a Web main purpose is range control, but it also reduce target maneuverability :
- which help you keep a neat orbit, keeping the radial under control
- Which prevent the target from manually steering to break the orbit, like flying manually the same direction as you are.
Is that correct ?
Basically. Say your flying at a speed of 1k/s, and the ship orbiting you is going 2k. If you fly in a straight line, on the same plane as the faster ship's orbit, you will end up with the following angular velocities: 1k when its flying in the same direction as you, increasing to 2k when its directly in front of you, increasing to 3k, when its flying the opposite direction, decreasing to 2k as it gets to directly behind you, and then down to 1k again to complete the orbit as it passes you. Further, it should spend a disproportionate amount of times at the lower speeds.
If he webs you with a 60% web, his lowest angular velocity will increase to 1.6k/s, and he will spend a larger portion of the time at angulars above 2k/s.
And yes, the range control is very important, as if the enemy is faster then you, they can just hit approach, and even with a tracking disruptor, they will have no problem tracking you, whereas a web would allow you to keep at least some traversal up, perhaps escape if you need to, and definitely stop your enemy from escaping unless they have a web too. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
800
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 18:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
In a frig fight control is everything
You can get control with all Ewar but none does it as well as the web.
Its not just range control, its just control of the fight in general.
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