Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Hellen Kurvora
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 10:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
In terms of missles cruiser sized and up, (heavy, heavy assault, torpedos, cruise) missles are really terrible in pvp. It is the only weapon system that actually has to tech down to faction ammo to hit EQUAL sized vessels with any moderate applied dps. For example:
In order to effectivly hit another cruiser in a caldari vessel such as my cara, I have to go from 450 dps with rages, to 380 dps with faction navys, and still hit for crap unless the target is double webbed. Meanwhile, you have ruptures pushing near 600 dps no prob. There is just no contest. Missles are damn near obsolete in pvp. The problem? Explosion radius and explosion velocity. Even with max skills and implants, rage heavy assults have an exp radious around 160 and exp velocity around 150. With those numbers you can kiss almost half of your applied damage goodbye against anything other than a double webbed battlecruiser. It is obsurd.
Please fix this terrible weapon system |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 11:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hellen Kurvora wrote:In terms of missles cruiser sized and up, (heavy, heavy assault, torpedos, cruise) missles are really terrible in pvp. It is the only weapon system that actually has to tech down to faction ammo to hit EQUAL sized vessels with any moderate applied dps. For example:
In order to effectivly hit another cruiser in a caldari vessel such as my cara, I have to go from 450 dps with rages, to 380 dps with faction navys, and still hit for crap unless the target is double webbed. Meanwhile, you have ruptures pushing near 600 dps no prob. There is just no contest. Missles are damn near obsolete in pvp. The problem? Explosion radius and explosion velocity. Even with max skills and implants, rage heavy assults have an exp radious around 160 and exp velocity around 150. With those numbers you can kiss almost half of your applied damage goodbye against anything other than a double webbed battlecruiser. It is obsurd.
Please fix this terrible weapon system
what? Really? Support skills to V already?
Besides that, there is largely nothing wrong with missiles, they are working amazingly well when used properly, and from condor to CN hookbill over to caracal/drake/tengu and soon even with cruises, they surely are not broken at all. If you are complaining about t2 ammo (which I guess you are referring to t2 HMs) try sniping a frigate at 50 using med. artillery and 650s with tremor. Hint: good luck.
PvP is also about preparation, if you expect your anti-battelship missiles to hurt cruisers, you gotta web'n'paint it. Easy as that.
Tl;dr: get supportskills up, prepare properly, make use of ewar to apply damage, you don't have a need for accuracy modules otherwise anyways to archive the glorious range of missiles. |
Hellen Kurvora
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 11:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Hellen Kurvora wrote:In terms of missles cruiser sized and up, (heavy, heavy assault, torpedos, cruise) missles are really terrible in pvp. It is the only weapon system that actually has to tech down to faction ammo to hit EQUAL sized vessels with any moderate applied dps. For example:
In order to effectivly hit another cruiser in a caldari vessel such as my cara, I have to go from 450 dps with rages, to 380 dps with faction navys, and still hit for crap unless the target is double webbed. Meanwhile, you have ruptures pushing near 600 dps no prob. There is just no contest. Missles are damn near obsolete in pvp. The problem? Explosion radius and explosion velocity. Even with max skills and implants, rage heavy assults have an exp radious around 160 and exp velocity around 150. With those numbers you can kiss almost half of your applied damage goodbye against anything other than a double webbed battlecruiser. It is obsurd.
Please fix this terrible weapon system what? Really? Support skills to V already? Besides that, there is largely nothing wrong with missiles, they are working amazingly well when used properly, and from condor to CN hookbill over to caracal/drake/tengu and soon even with cruises, they surely are not broken at all. If you are complaining about t2 ammo (which I guess you are referring to t2 HMs) try sniping a frigate at 50 using med. artillery and 650s with tremor. Hint: good luck. PvP is also about preparation, if you expect your anti-battelship missiles to hurt cruisers, you gotta web'n'paint it. Easy as that. Tl;dr: get supportskills up, prepare properly, make use of ewar to apply damage, you don't have a need for accuracy modules otherwise anyways to archive the glorious range of missiles.
Im sorry to say but you dont know what you are talking about. The average sig radious of a cruiser is around 120, some lower then that, some slightly higher.
With all my support skills to 4 or 5 and with implants my rage heavy assults have a exp radious of 166.... Which means I need to switch to faction ammo giving me a whopping dps of 380. Then comes explosion velocity, which is around 150 on rages, meaning every m/s faster then 150 my target is moving, damage is taken off. Even while webbed the target is likely not moving that slow...
So that 380 dps goes to about 280. Thats laughable compared to what other cruisers get using turrets. So, you really dont have a clue man.
And on a side note, nobody is using HMs in solo pvp, so that point is not even valid. I am not refering to pve. |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE Initiative Mercenaries
791
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 11:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
T2 gun ammo has tracking penalties. Oh god. |
Hellen Kurvora
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 11:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:T2 gun ammo has tracking penalties.
Sure but they also have wrecking hits, and about three times the max dps... Also a single web is enough to counter most tracking issues. Turrets don't need to drop to faction ammo just to hit an EQUAL sized ship.
Basically missle t2 ammo is only effective when fighting a larger ship then yourself, who the **** is going to be doing that?? lol |
Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
239
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 11:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
What kinda range does a 600dps rupture have? |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 11:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Klymer wrote:What kinda range does a 600dps rupture have? too much |
Hellen Kurvora
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 11:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Klymer wrote:What kinda range does a 600dps rupture have?
They can get around, or close to that dps under 5000m. After 5000m it drops a bit, but it's still a lot higher then ham dps.
And while hams can fight out to 24 km, you wont have ur target webbed at that range and therefore your damage will be nothing due to exp velocity. Also, Caldari cruisers like the caracal don't kite well, they can't keep the mwd on for well over a min with everything else active usually. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
126
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 14:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
I would like to see this 600 dps rupture fit. Inb4 officer gyros and 6% implants |
Liam Inkuras
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
259
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 14:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
The HAM Caracal (properly fit) strongly disagrees with you. If you do crap DPS to most things, then you are fit improperly, or your skills are lacking. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
|
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 15:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:I would like to see this 600 dps rupture fit. Inb4 officer gyros and 6% implants 4x 425mms with Hail, one HAM launcher. Some drones. Non-lame skills.... 600dps easily.
If you be silly, overheat, using implants and officer mods.... 900dps :D
Anyway.... Rifter can do this at 1.5km or so assuming it hits cleanly. Can't really comment on how balanced missiles are right now. I was just bored enough to make a silly Rupture in EFT :D |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
805
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 15:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
You're wrong
Not much else to say really... BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
|
God's Apples
The Tuskers
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 15:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
[Rupture, 600 dps] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large Shield Extender II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4
639 dps with heat and hail.
It doesn't really matter because a caracal will kill this rupture fit every time no problem. You clearly don't understand balance and missiles. First, no matter what you're flying you should always be using faction ammo to shoot at ships your size and below unless you are right on 'em double webbed not moving.
Missiles have no element of randomness like turrets do. Sure you can get crits (wrecking hits) but you can also have 0 transversal and get a glancing hit. A dual web HAM caracal can project anywhere in point range and any frig that catches it will surely die.
Now large missiles (i.e. cruises and torps) are pretty awful except in certain cases like BLOPs gangs where you have bombers with TPs and rapiers dual/triple webbing a target. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
805
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 19:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
God's Apples wrote:[Rupture, 600 dps] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large Shield Extender II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4
639 dps with heat and hail.
It doesn't really matter because a caracal will kill this rupture fit every time no problem. You clearly don't understand balance and missiles. First, no matter what you're flying you should always be using faction ammo to shoot at ships your size and below unless you are right on 'em double webbed not moving.
Missiles have no element of randomness like turrets do. Sure you can get crits (wrecking hits) but you can also have 0 transversal and get a glancing hit. A dual web HAM caracal can project anywhere in point range and any frig that catches it will surely die.
Now large missiles (i.e. cruises and torps) are pretty awful except in certain cases like BLOPs gangs where you have bombers with TPs and rapiers dual/triple webbing a target.
Cruise are becoming sexy as **** though..
BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
|
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
128
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 21:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
And if I tell you the rupture fit I use that has 364 dps will beat that 600 dps one every time?
How much you can get your DPS number in EFT has 0 relation to the actual performance of a ship. This is one thing you need to understand before coming to make a whine thread.
Missiles are fine in pvp, they have their advantages and disadvantages just like any other weapon system. |
Alara IonStorm
4976
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 21:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:And if I tell you the rupture fit I use that has 364 dps will beat that 600 dps one every time?
How much you can get your DPS number in EFT has 0 relation to the actual performance of a ship. This is one thing you need to understand before coming to make a whine thread.
Missiles are fine in pvp, they have their advantages and disadvantages just like any other weapon system. But wait a minute here!
Isn't what's balanced decided only and absolutely by a spreadsheet solo fight between a single ship using the weapons system you think is underpowered vs another ships fit with a counter fit operating in a situation that leaves circumstances in its favor with no mention to both ships and weapons various upsides and downsides in other situations?
If not then this forum has been lying to me all this time.
|
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
128
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 21:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Oh no, all I said was QQ moar and l2p |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1065
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 21:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:And if I tell you the rupture fit I use that has 364 dps will beat that 600 dps one every time?
How much you can get your DPS number in EFT has 0 relation to the actual performance of a ship. This is one thing you need to understand before coming to make a whine thread.
Missiles are fine in pvp, they have their advantages and disadvantages just like any other weapon system.
You need to undock more. Missiles are precisely the weapon system that looks great on paper but useless in practice. Why don't you actually shoot cruises at anything that's moving and compare that to EFT?
Rockets not included, btw, small blasters are fine in pvp too, frig fight is a different game. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
129
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 22:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
ehm I wasn't comparing missiles in that instance really, someone said they had a 600 DPS rupture failfit so I had to shoot it down :3
I don't shoot cruises in pvp, I got over self-harm about 10 years ago. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1066
|
Posted - 2013.05.05 23:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:ehm I wasn't comparing missiles in that instance really, someone said they had a 600 DPS rupture failfit so I had to shoot it down :3
I don't shoot cruises in pvp, I got over self-harm about 10 years ago.
You do get close to 600 dps with Hail and drones. As paper-warrioring as Hail is, it's closer to reality than the 600 kinetic dps drake with Fury heavies, which everyone and their mother cites as the reason why missiles are OP.
Ever wondered why drakes that show up on kms so often have their light drones instead of hmls listed as primary dmg dealers? There are reasons for that. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
|
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 02:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
LOL HAIL This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 02:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:ehm I wasn't comparing missiles in that instance really, someone said they had a 600 DPS rupture failfit so I had to shoot it down :3
I don't shoot cruises in pvp, I got over self-harm about 10 years ago. You do get close to 600 dps with Hail and drones. As paper-warrioring as Hail is, it's closer to reality than the 600 kinetic dps drake with Fury heavies, which everyone and their mother cites as the reason why missiles are OP. Ever wondered why drakes that show up on kms so often have their light drones instead of hmls listed as primary dmg dealers? There are reasons for that.
you could run with rigors and flares and a painter...........nobody would know! |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 02:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
And since when are missiles great on paper? They're **** on paper compared to blasters and lasers in general. Missiles always work. They're a very strong weapon platform and always will be. The only exception is mega fleets where targets instantly die, and even that saw the goon drakefleets for a long time. Now I don't live in null, but I believe these were shut down by some firewall doctrines that caught on relatively recently. They might still be used even after the meets if not for that. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Garresh
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 02:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Post deleted due to syndrome of a downs. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
138
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 10:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hellen Kurvora wrote: A web and a scram should be all thats needed when using a close range wepaon, just like other weapon systems.
.
you forgot a few mods. like a TE or 2 usually, like the one in this thread uses 1. Or say TC's on the uber SR gank boat, gank vindi. Unless of course you like missing targets who don't fly into web range. Like when someone is smart enough to not get close and you have to whip out the barrage. You rarely see a drake without TP, you rarely see a gun boat (at least minmatar) without TE. Different paths same effect...hit crap better. And both damn eve law a need to fit them.
Now some will say that TE is a low slot mod. After june if that rupture wants the tracking, want some range, the answer is no longer TE. So after june fear not...this mythical 600dps rupture will be jsut like a web, paint and scram ham boat. It will be 1 web, 1 TC (with alternating scripts changes) and scram.
Or ofc pull a shield rig and run ambit and TE (that will now only enahce tracking). Not like its a much tastier pick all in all.
|
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 11:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:And if I tell you the rupture fit I use that has 364 dps will beat that 600 dps one every time?
How much you can get your DPS number in EFT has 0 relation to the actual performance of a ship. This is one thing you need to understand before coming to make a whine thread.
Missiles are fine in pvp, they have their advantages and disadvantages just like any other weapon system. You need to undock more. Missiles are precisely the weapon system that looks great on paper but useless in practice. Why don't you actually shoot cruises at anything that's moving and compare that to EFT? Rockets not included, btw, small blasters are fine in pvp too, frig fight is a different game.
And you need to fly the ship and not just undock!
Except Cruise Missiles, which will be buffed anyting is fine! Solo I fly >90% missiles in my ships Rockets, HMs, HAMs mainly, but also torps) and I am really happy with them. Everything is OK and more or less balanced.
sabre906 wrote:Ever wondered why drakes that show up on kms so often have their light drones instead of hmls listed as primary dmg dealers? There are reasons for that.
Depending on Target and Killmail I would say. And you miss proof of that as well. It's not my impression, that mainly Drones are on the Killmails, when Drakes are on them. |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
269
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 11:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Get target painters and webs... problem solved. |
Charlie Jacobson
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 12:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
I like drones |
Lloyd Roses
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 13:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
I want to draw a comparison of two frequently used ships in whs...
a) the 970dps blaster/valkyrie proteus b) the 690dps hamlegion
We are normally fighting other tech-IIIs and their fleets, with all those cruisers (partially inside highclass wolf-rayets and such) strongly putting HAMs to a disadvantage, yet:
- Comparing the damage output of (we usually start fights at around spitting range) the proteus with around 35% higher base damage (on paper) against a hamlegion with terrible sig-issues against moving t3 cruisers... the hamlegion either performs equal to the prot, or -- which is way more oftenly the case -- outdps the proteus by a huge margin. Slaying capitals is mostly still proteus-speace, but in any decent fight having you need to switch from target to target, the legions just fare a lot better. Ofc a lot comes hand in hand with the selectable damagetype and slamming the ham-pilots heads' onto the table until they finally mount a TP each on their ships.
However, since you already got to the conclusion that missiles are terrible and not worthy, why use them? |
Kessel Rock
RC Industries Yulai Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.06 13:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
I've tried playing this game a few times over the past 6 years. and i always felt missiles were awesome. I come back this time and im completely gimped. i used to be able to blow through anoms with 0 problems. i come back to the game try to do it and lose 3 ships.
I get in my ship that i just used to rat belts (dont have good skills with guns all my skills are in missiles) all gun weapons and rip through anoms.
my Raven kills soooo slow yet my POS little crap ship DPS is 2X higher with 50% less skills. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |