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Raznarok
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Posted - 2005.10.05 23:00:00 -
[1]
What would you consider yourself?
I've seen a lot of movies (ganks), and from what I can make out of those is that there isnt really any 1v1 PvP going on. And after checking a couple of killboards, seems that some alliance's manage to exceed the limit of people that you can get on a killmail (pod killmail).
Annnnyway does the EvE community, consider ganking as part of PvP?
I mean its not really much of a challenge really is it.
So as someone who travels round in groups ganking people, would you consider yourself a PvP'er? |
Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.10.05 23:07:00 -
[2]
Nobody is ever either or a ganker or pvper, as the terms are too vague. Ganking is when a group of ships beat up a single or atleast smaller group of ships. In general Ganking is something done by Blobs. It is well known that alliance blobbers (which you seem to be talking about) do very badly in situations where they don't outnumber the opponent, as they often have no real pvp skill. So yes, ganking is pvp, but it's pvp where you substitute actual skill with numbers and ship size. Many corps who claim to be good pvp corps are just good at organizing a gang and getting it to move fast enough to gank enemies. Working in a group this way isn't exactly easy, but in general these "Gank corps" cannot/will not fight unless they have the golden ratio, which is 2 or 3 vs 1 odds.
Personally, i'm a solo pilot 90% of the time, and so i am always in huge danger of being ganked. I've also noticed that 99% of the fights you see in movies are just ganks (even those of supposedly good players/corps), and i'm holding off on making any of my own until i have enough footage to make a good one with only mostly fair fights in it.
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Kresh Vladir
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Posted - 2005.10.05 23:08:00 -
[3]
pvp doesint have to stand for
Player vs Player
it can also stand for
Player(s) vs Player(s)
Player(s) vs Player
and ganking is as fun as hell watching stuff instamelt ( thats preety funny 2 lol )
but yes u feel alot better when u take somthing down by your self
but either way their both as fun as hell
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.10.05 23:13:00 -
[4]
Ganking doesnt pay so well.
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.10.05 23:14:00 -
[5]
I consider myself a solo pvp/pirate/something. I solo 90% of the time too. But what can you do really. Eve is about controlling this and that. The biggest faction will always win due to the fact once you die you don't stay dead. But really it's ok, people want to gank and be sheep then more power to them. I rather be the lone hero type then one of them always in a carebear group who hold hands for the carebear stare thing.
-Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
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Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2005.10.05 23:24:00 -
[6]
Unless your talking about ganking npcs then yes ganking is pvp.
I like solo flying and solo killing because its easy, its quick and its exciting, but on the other hand I perfer to hunt with my corp where we have to organise ourselves a bit more and follow instructions and have different roles, it makes things sometimes difficult but imo more fun.
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raVn666
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Posted - 2005.10.05 23:27:00 -
[7]
Interresting question, but I belive too that pvp is all kinda player(s) vs player(s) activity. Ganking is a part of pvp as well.
In Smite we often have to face forces that is 3-4 times bigger than us , and that actually makes it more fun , we have to plan , and often use gerillia tactics.
Large gankingsquads can be really good entertainment
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Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2005.10.05 23:29:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Shin Ra
Ganking doesnt pay so well.
Some people see ganking as not only using a numericaly large force but using larger power, for examply a Battleship killing a frigate/indy. And I believe that pays pretty well.
Alliances fly around in large Ganksquads and they do it to make isk and make isk they do, but indirectly. They keep their alliance clear of invaders/pirates so that their miners/npcers can make isk in safety.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.10.05 23:45:00 -
[9]
I fly inties and frigs almost all the time in pvp so there isn't alot I can really "gank".
Im a ganker when it comes to attacking veldspar in my covetor though.
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Psycarne
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Posted - 2005.10.06 00:23:00 -
[10]
Ganking things is boring 
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Order of the Wombles: Recycling those untidy modules on your ship. |
Utgardsloki
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Posted - 2005.10.06 00:40:00 -
[11]
Ganking is very common, in fact there's a lot more ganking going on than 'fair' combat. I don't like it much, but each to their own.
It is safer, and there's more money and kills to be made just sitting at gates in battleships killing everything that comes through, sad but true. Not my idea of fun, but as I said, each to their own.
I feel sorry for people who actually get a rush from combat that they can't possibly lose. Give me good 'ol 1 vs 1 anyday. That's all I'm saying.
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Karistis
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Posted - 2005.10.06 01:12:00 -
[12]
Personally, I solo PvP/pirate most of the time. Flying around in huge gank-squads attacking haulers makes ISK fast, but its not really all that much fun because of the lack of risk. Solo pirating is a lot more fun, in my opinion, especially when your opponent brings in a couple of reinforcements. I always love a challenging fight, as long as it is somewhat even on both sides. 
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2005.01.17 22:04:22 combat Chackle [PUSY] perfectly runs from you, wrecking for 1500 cowardice. |
Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2005.10.06 07:57:00 -
[13]
I like to solo hunt, at he very most have 2 wingmen with me if we going in frigs, i do like the occasional fleet op with more numbers but the fun is in solo or small group PvP.
the ganking aspect of the game is more functional than enjoyable
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Corranisis
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Posted - 2005.10.06 08:11:00 -
[14]
In a group you are pack hunting, everyone has a specific role to perform. But if you're in a 30 person frig fleet then that's more griefing ppl than pvp imo 
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Pirate? We're in 0.0 sweety. |
Garia666
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Posted - 2005.10.06 14:44:00 -
[15]
Take in mind that they figth for a cause.
To protect them self or to achieve a goal.
Just look at the fish thet group together because of a better chance of survival..
People who realy fight 1 on 1 just do it to test there own skilz or just because they can.
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CCP [ Cash Collecting Program ] Slogan : The more Skilzz the more Moneh ..
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Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2005.10.06 14:55:00 -
[16]
Personally, I don't camp gates much (too boring), but I usually try to avoid fights unless I have the advantage. I've found through experiences that fights that seem fair tend to not be. They'll have the exact things fitted to beat me. Sod's law.
Does that make me a PvPer or ganker? Y'know, I don't much care.
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Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2005.10.06 15:00:00 -
[17]
Given how fast an engagement ends in almost every case, the hunt is the actual thrill in PVP rather than the "blowing stuff up" part. The hunt is MUCH more entertaining in a team, and with teams hunting a lone pilot, it becomes a gank. Of course, hunting alone can be alot of fun if you actually find the target, but given how many belts and moons and planets there is in each system, a group of players is needed to cover every corner as well as cover the exits. That is PVP for me: the moments before we all come down on the enemy, and the moments his backup arrives. The actual killing is just a byproduct of the hunt.
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Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.10.06 15:01:00 -
[18]
Ganking people is the only way to pirate in the southwest since no one mines in low security belts and if you do find someone, they just safe spot when they see you enter local.
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Tulor
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Posted - 2005.10.06 15:14:00 -
[19]
There's no such thing as a fair fight in Eve. Sorr to spoil it for you. If I'm flying with 3 friends and we come across a lone battleship npc'ing, do you actually think we are going to discuss amongst ourselves who gets to go fight that guy? No, we don't, we just go kill the poor person. Likewise if there's 5 people in local all gunning for me and I'm flying solo, I'm not going to complain about it or whine at them in local. This game is NOT about fair fights. If you get into a fair fight you did something wrong. There's always a way to gain the advantage before a fight starts, and it's not always having more numbers.
And besides, 1v1 is slightly boring in my opinion. I do it to get money since I don't have to split the loot but I much prefer small groups of 3 or 4 people to flying solo.
Yarrr! |
Rodge
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Posted - 2005.10.06 15:18:00 -
[20]
Killmails are a terrible way of trying to figure out what happened anyway.
For example TeddyBears jumped in on us the other day. They had 4 ships vs our 10. However, they had all Battleships whereas we had primarily support ships. Neither side got any kills, but if they had got one then warped off then that single killmail would have shown 1 frigate vs 4xBattleships. The killmail suggests "overkill" or "gank" whereas their actions in the event would have been anything but.
There's lots of 1v1s go on anyway, I live for 1v1 duels myself!
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.10.06 15:39:00 -
[21]
Ok here is another perspective for you. I'm in an alliance that patrols our space as well as our allies and we engage in equal numbers as well as ganks to defend that space.
Where you would engage in equal numbers is where you fight for fun, generally in small battles or where haveing more number is going to scare your target off. This is the stuff that gets the rush going and it really doesn't matter who wins or looses.
An example of clearing a gank is where you're trying to clear a gate camp in your space, this is your objective and you're trying to inflict maximum damage on an enemy, just like the shock and awe doctrine employed by the US military for example. For example last night we had 2 'geddons and a zealot camping R3 and we employed a few 'throns an ECM scorp with tacklers in order to completly eliminate them without loss, also they are in position within optimal and you equate that. Is this PvP, well technically yes but it's not fun and is not a challenge, you're doing a job of eliminating a threat from your space.
Of course when you do the above to some opponents then they get upset in local however it soon goes when ask if had one ship in would all but one of the camp had withheld their fire.
Seriously though even matches beat being in a gank any day of the week.
PS Numbers isn't a quantative measure of equality though, 5 kestrels doesn't equate to 5 sniper tempests 100km off.
Outreach Executive
Huzzah Foreign Affairs
Into PVP? Join us to fight some of the best pvpers. |
Goberth Ludwig
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Posted - 2005.10.06 16:18:00 -
[22]
As someone said, the real pvp inst the fight itself, its the hunt.
I think the best pvper - fleet commander is the one that is best at telling the fight he will win by the ones he will probably lose
- Gob (also known as Admiral Goberius) |
R31D
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Posted - 2005.10.06 16:55:00 -
[23]
Edited by: R31D on 06/10/2005 16:55:34
nvm
Free bumpage for all |
darth solo
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Posted - 2005.10.06 17:37:00 -
[24]
i love a 6 v 6 sort of fight... ppl go around in large numbers, its just the way the games went now..
ganks do not fill me with joy...
d solo.
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Garreck
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Posted - 2005.10.06 19:54:00 -
[25]
I get no pleasure from outnumbering and outgunning my enemy. That much is certain.
One thing I don't like, though, is the distinction of "pvp-er vs ganker." First, Eve is a player vs player game. If you're not doing pvp, you're not experiencing the game to its fullest. There a lots of folks not experiencing the game to its fullest, of course...but technically we should all be pvp-ers.
Ganks just happen. If I'm in a smaller fleet than my enemy, I'm going to try to get him to split his fleet and switch the odds. This often results in a gank. Or...if I mis-step, I put my smaller fleet under the guns of a much larger one and I'm the one on the recieving end of a gank. What are we to do? Look at the targets in front of us, quickly assertain "okay, 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, and 2 inties. Alright, fleet...everybody hold fire except for 1 battleship, 2 cruisers and 2 inties!" No, that's quite clearly a rediculous situation.
In combat, a wise commander does what is necessary to win. Do I get much more pleasure from an "even" fight? Definitely. To that end, I hope my enemy brings a potent, competent force...but I'll not hamstring myself to make things fair.
Garreck
Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Ben Derindar
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Posted - 2005.10.07 03:05:00 -
[26]
Rodge makes a good point. While it isn't always the case, killmails these days can be horribly misleading on their own.
Take for example, any number of the 20v20-sized battles that have taken place recently in Pureblind between ASCN and G/IRON/friends. A primary is called, someone loses their ship and 15+ ships are on the mail. However, if there are a dozen or so such mails posted on the killboard that were all timed within a few minutes of each other, that gives you a clue as to what else was happening at the time.
Pod mails also appear to be bugged in that if you make it on to the ship kill, you automatically seem to get in on the pod, whether you aggress the pod or not.
There are just too many other surrounding circumstances that people never get to see when they look at a killmail. Do not assume that every "gank" you see is in fact that.
/Ben
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Leon 026
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Posted - 2005.10.07 03:55:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Leon 026 on 07/10/2005 03:58:07
Edited by: Leon 026 on 07/10/2005 03:57:20
In my opinion, ganking and PvP are the same thing. Ganking is PvP where PvPers take numerical advantage to turn it into a tactical advantage over the enemy. Doesnt matter if they arent that good at PvP or are, its still a tactical advantage over the enemy. If the numerically superior force loses to a less smaller force, then either they were set up wrong, had faulty strategy in the execution of the plan, or werent "skilled" enough, or just simply the enemy had a better laid out plan. "Ganking" and "gankers" is just a term that people throw out as a dimunitive insult to those that rely on numerical superiority to achieve a tactical advantage over the opponent. As mentioned above, even a single battleship attacking a freighter is termed "gank", but in this case, the "gank" reflects not on numerical superiority, but hardware superiority over the opponent.
Whats interesting, is that in online games with PvP, people are quick to throw out accusations of ganking and instantly assume that "blobbers" and people that "gank" arent skilled or good at PvP, but you will never hear a military general or soldier calling numerical or equipment superiority "ganking" as "bad". Its a tactical advantage that saves you from dying and wasting money by achieving a good advantage over the enemy to insure a victory.
From what I've seen on the forums and in game, people like to toughen up and say how this game is not for carebears and pansy PvPers from WoW, but lets face it, EVE isnt a medieval-based game with the idea of chivalry instilled in it, so expecting an honorable 1v1 is pretty unrealistic IMO. Of course, if the opponent agreed to a 1v1 beforehand, then yes it would be underhanded to break the agreement, but in the case of a fleet vs fleet battle, the idea of "ganking" doesnt make sense. Why would you want to waste your hardware and money and increase the chance of taking losses by choosing to take fewer ships if you can create a tactical advantage by having a superior force? Sure, you might like the challenge in defeating another fleet at worse odds, but not everyone is like that. A numerical advantage is still a valid advantage over you or the opponent. If you dont like it, dont engage and find a more suitable battlefield to your advantage. If you get attacked by a bunch of pirates and get podded, adapt and move on. Never expect your opponent to hold the same values as you if you are looking for a chivalrous battle here.
Just me 0.02 ISK
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2005.10.07 04:41:00 -
[28]
Yarr 
-----------------------------------Chinese Shard 4TL--------------------------------- |
FreeHansje
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Posted - 2005.10.07 07:16:00 -
[29]
Hmm
I am under the impression, that some ppl consider 'gangking' not really 'sportive'. But I thought it is sound military doctrine to have superior firepower and numbers when attacking?
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FreeHansje
Yes, I'm a Newby. So sue me! |
Trey Azagthoth
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Posted - 2005.10.07 07:37:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tbone
I didnt read all the post due to being drunk. But, pvp = gank.(killboard) it can be 50 on 50 and still show up as a gank. (due to 50 targeting 1). So in my perspective, there is no ganking, only pvp.
This man knows what he is talking about, even if he is drunk as ****.
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Black Lotus
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Posted - 2005.10.07 09:14:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
carebear group who hold hands for the carebear stare thing.
HAHAHA, Sounds about right.
Fair fights, or fighting outnumbered, espicially the latter is what i enjoy.
Definatly like bs 1v1's to. Its alot more satisfying.
I really think we do need a sticky of people who dishonor 1v1's tho. To stop it from being exploited a screenshot of the agreement, and the broken arangement, both on the same screen would be needed to have the players name added.
Then u could just goto post, and at the top of ur window edit/find "type players name", and find out if they have dishonored a 1v1.
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Randay
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Posted - 2005.10.07 10:41:00 -
[32]
A good PVPer will not care about being outnumbered, but will care about being outgunned. Most battles are decided before they even start. (hurray covert ops and alts). The funnest is when you are outnumbered but not outgunned, ie: you in a battleship vs 3 cruisers, or you in a cruiser vs 3 or 4 frigs. The fight doesnt turn out to be as simple as a 1v1, and yet you still stand a good chance even though you are outnumbered.
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"Det hõr kan betyda krig!" |
Cordras
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Posted - 2005.10.07 15:24:00 -
[33]
There are players who log on, sit on a gate for hours every day and gank all that pops though. Day after day without end. Do they do it because its fun ? No. Its for the kill score that will make them famous.
Killboards killed PvP. Killboards and lamers.
Silly logic to excuse lame behavior goes well with that gamstyle. And in a way that makes EVE more real life like than anything else.
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Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2005.10.07 18:50:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Cordras
There are players who log on, sit on a gate for hours every day and gank all that pops though. Day after day without end. Do they do it because its fun ? No. Its for the kill score that will make them famous.
Killboards killed PvP. Killboards and lamers.
Silly logic to excuse lame behavior goes well with that gamstyle. And in a way that makes EVE more real life like than anything else.
I do that, but i do it for the isk. The fun I have is with my corpmates on ts just kinda like the same fun npchunters have.
Killboards didnt kill pvp, they actually made it more popular. I dont like them or killmails being sent to victor, but for totally different reasons than the ones you described.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2005.10.07 19:04:00 -
[35]
I don't gank, fighting and killing stuff solo is much more fun
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2005.10.07 19:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Shin Ra
Ganking doesnt pay so well.
Aww, what happen? The price of WCS increase 400% and reduce BE's bottom line? :D
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Sweetpain
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Posted - 2005.10.08 11:38:00 -
[37]
Ganking is a pvp tactic. There is no difference on a pvp'er and a ganker the only difference is the size of thier gang vs the size of the targets gangs.
Someone that are looking for one vs one type of action could at best been called a duellist.
now that put aside, this game encourage ganking or in that fleet engangements. thats the only reson the game offer you skills that will improve your own skills if part of a gang.
Eve dont really have a gank problem, the only problem it have with gangs going after a single target is the location they are allowed to do it on.
If a blob entered a belt and took out several single targets before moving on, people would name it a successful strike and be happy with it.
but when the gang sit and wait by gates on the single traveler that have no other option but to go where the gank squad is waiting they react to it differently.
a pvp'er is someone that enjoy and are looking for action versus other players. they are pvp'er if they prefer to do it alone or if they prefer to do it in a gang.
If you would at all label someone with the Ganker label. then i would have to say that is someone that do not "look" for player vs player action, but rather sit and wait for it. And in many cases demand codes to be put in to the game that will force other player to do the work instead of them. because they are to lazy to do it themselves.
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