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Tsukihi Phoenix
Hunter Heavy Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.05.08 13:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
Not quite sure if this belongs in S&M, if it gets moved so be it. I chose here because it's relevant to WH's, since that's where i'll be flying.
For small wh warfare (5-7 people, no capitals on field), which do you think does a better role of neuting out enemy support, when the neuting ship in question has little/no logi support on it's own?
I've been debating between a pilgrim, a covops legion, and a bhaal obviously, but each has their ups and downs.
Pilgrim
Pros: Strong neuts, small sig and low weight make it ideal for smaller holes. the TD bonus and ability to field decent dps with drones is nice. covops cloak is also sweet.
Cons: squishy as all hell, and as the neuts are medium neuts, they don't have much range. Worried about being called primary (which i will be...) and dying instantly to anything other than frigs.
Legion
Pros: MOAR NEUTS! MOAR TANK! COVOPS!
cons: expensive, and doesnt have the TD bonus that the Pilgrim does. Can still be covops and do its job correctly, and hopefully outlast the enemy dps with high buffer. Slower than the pilgrim, but seems to be slightly more viable due to the higher tank.
Bhaalgorn
Pros: OMGWTFBBQ neuts, insane tank, more range on the neuts + stupid high web bonus. oh yeah, did i mention WTF neuts?
Cons: Even more expensive than a legion, and without dedicated logi support on field, can be easily (sort of?) capped out and killed. Has more utility than the legion with the webs, but as we have loki's as well this isn't a huge issue. If it gets hairy and i have to jump, there's no way im escaping on the other side of a wh in time, cause a bhaal is slow as ****.
Summary: Which ship would be best? i'm looking for:
-Covops cloak is preferred, not quite mandatory
-Decent utility other than neuts.
-at least a 70k tank on a cruiser, 125k+ on a BS.
-cost effective. I'm not looking for a 2b bhaal fit that higher end wh alliances use (talocan... ) but at the same time, i don't want to have to buy 25 arbi's and lose it and possibly a pod every fight.
Again, if this gets moved to S&M still relevant, thanks guys!
-Tsuki
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Aducat Ragnarson
Cult of the Black Goat
Dark Taboo
140
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Posted - 2013.05.08 13:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well, you pretty much stated the pros and cons of the ships you listed, I do not know what else you could want?
But I can assure you, that yes in a pilgrim you do not want to be in the actual heat of battle too much.
In your case, I would probably be going for the cloaky neut legion as it makes for a good scout and initial tackle.
However, if you are flying with guardian support and do not actually need a cloaky scout/tackle (for example if you already have a proteus for that), might i suggest to you an armor tanked curse? The lon rang neuts are awesome and you can fill the midslots with remote ECCM to chain to your guardians. With 4/2 Guardians, your curse(s) will never run out of cap and can suckle most enemy logis dry whilst simultaniously remote ECCMing your ships and maybe TDing the enemy a little.
Or if you fancy something a little more extravagant, you can also use Ashimmus, though their performance is subpar at the moment and if you do not need 90% webs, you would probably fare better with the other alternatives. |
Tsukihi Phoenix
Hunter Heavy Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.05.08 13:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aducat Ragnarson wrote:Well, you pretty much stated the pros and cons of the ships you listed, I do not know what else you could want?
But I can assure you, that yes in a pilgrim you do not want to be in the actual heat of battle too much.
In your case, I would probably be going for the cloaky neut legion as it makes for a good scout and initial tackle.
However, if you are flying with guardian support and do not actually need a cloaky scout/tackle (for example if you already have a proteus for that), might i suggest to you an armor tanked curse? The lon rang neuts are awesome and you can fill the midslots with remote ECCM to chain to your guardians. With 4/2 Guardians, your curse(s) will never run out of cap and can suckle most enemy logis dry whilst simultaniously remote ECCMing your ships and maybe TDing the enemy a little.
Or if you fancy something a little more extravagant, you can also use Ashimmus, though their performance is subpar at the moment and if you do not need 90% webs, you would probably fare better with the other alternatives.
We don't have dedicated logi support usually, and we usually do have initial tackle, but as a lot of the fighting that requires a dedicated neut ship is on wh's themselves, i need a decent tank on my own, without logi, while being in close range.
I say covops cloak because if i have to jump hole cause sh*t hits the fan, i can pull range on hole and cloak up.
I've been leaning to the pilgrim just because of the TD bonus, but the legion is sexy too. the tank and covops is awesome, but i don't feel like re-training a skill everytime i lose 1, and they're not exactly throwaway ships.
-Tsuki |
Omen Nihilo
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
213
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Posted - 2013.05.08 13:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
If you're not flying with logi than bring a Curse. Pilgrim is crap, and Legion/Bhaal need Logi. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics
K162
1800
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Posted - 2013.05.08 13:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
if youre facing dreads, keep the bhaal in the SMA. |
Aducat Ragnarson
Cult of the Black Goat
Dark Taboo
140
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Posted - 2013.05.08 13:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Well in that case I would definitly recommend the Legion. A cloaky neut legion can be fit with more neut power than a pilgrim, with abouth 170k ehp tank and covops for around 390mil isk. This is almost triple the tank of the pilgrim, with more neuts at twice the cost and all you sacrifice is the little drone damage and TD.
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc.
Transmission Lost
34
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Posted - 2013.05.08 13:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maybe that armageddon after the patch can be a good alternative?
I am not sure though since i am not an eft wizard. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
185
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Posted - 2013.05.08 13:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Don't forget the Prophecy as a low-cost option. From the sound of this thread so far, you're looking for the Prophecy .
Bhaal > Abaddon/Legion > Prophecy. Situational use may vary :) |
Bamsey Amraa
Unseen Nomads
Exiled Ones
21
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you have 5-6 ppl fleet you can not use dedicated neut ship (easy to locate, jamm and primary for all) but split neuts in fleet.
I dont know what ships you use but try sacrifice one high slot in all your ships for medium fluctuator...... Just saying ;) |
Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise
No Holes Barred
181
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Posted - 2013.05.08 14:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'd get a small logi group any day before looking at neuts.
Wormholes has the best accoustics. It's known.
- Sing it for me - |
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Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
Insurance Fraud.
287
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Posted - 2013.05.08 15:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'd second curse over pilgrim. Curse with booster for max neut, or just a couple neuts and couple nos with double td, shield, and micro. Hang at 30-35km, pulse micro, and use your drones for self-defense. Your modest buffer + speed/range + td will give you either enough time to gtfo or make you untouchable, depending on what's on the field. Only significant con is that ecm or enemy neuts will run you off periodically, but that's just going to be life for a small gang...
There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency. |
Godfrey Silvarna
Frozen Dawn Inc
Arctic Light
77
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Posted - 2013.05.08 16:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
I am a huge fan of the Pilgrim. ECM drones + neuts + tracking disruptors + cloaky tackle on the same hull is just evil enough for my tastes.
Definitely only suitable for small gang PvP though. We use bhaalgorns and neut legions for bigger stuff. |
Havoc Zealot
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
30
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Posted - 2013.05.08 17:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Neut legion best legion. |
Tsukihi Phoenix
Hunter Heavy Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.05.08 19:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thanks for the replies guys, really helpful.
the thing is, the people who would fly our neuts are also our logi pilots. xD...
We fly mostly armor t3's (loki, proteus), so its not like we have a lot of utility highs.
from the sounds of it, i'd look into a curse and crunch more numbers on a legion.
-Tsuki |
Hathrul
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Polarized.
239
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Posted - 2013.05.08 20:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
for small engagements a hybrid legion can do a fair job. 5 hams + 2 neuts. also, consider an abadon or the armagedon (especially after the patch)
there are plenty of options. with such small engagements you dont need the massive neuting power from a bhaalgorn. any ship will do really
and learn 2 bring logi :0 |
Britta Nolen
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.05.09 01:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cap boosted Sentry/Nuet Domi. That thing should **** up anyone's day. |
Omen Nihilo
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
215
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Posted - 2013.05.09 02:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tsukihi Phoenix wrote:
We fly mostly armor t3's (loki, proteus)
Why are you looking at neuts... get logi asap!
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Bamsey Amraa
Unseen Nomads
Exiled Ones
21
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Posted - 2013.05.09 05:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Omen Nihilo wrote:Tsukihi Phoenix wrote:
We fly mostly armor t3's (loki, proteus)
Why are you looking at neuts... get logi asap!
Thats right! Use pilot for logistic asap and use ecm drones from proteuses to jamm enemy logi or neuts eventually just use dedicated jamm ship like armor Jammgu :) |
Wander Prian
Frozen Dawn Inc
Arctic Light
3
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Posted - 2013.05.09 05:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
If your choice is between logi or neuts, go logi,it will keep you alive better. Neuts are a good addition to a fleet, but logi is almost always a better choice.
When it comes to neuts, there isn't just one right answer. Sometimes you just need the brute force of a Bhaalgorn and sometimes you need the smaller sized and more agile neutlegion. Pilgrim and curse are abit too weak in the tank department to survive a wh-brawl, unless you really know how to fly them. |
Fassin-Taak
Boris Johnson's Love Children
0
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Posted - 2013.05.09 07:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Don't know if this has been mentioned in this thread already. Didn't read it all but the geddon will be a neut ship after odessy. Bonus to neut range :) so a full rack of large neuts at 40k ish range with a bs size tank + cheap as hell compared to legion/bhaal will make this an excellent choice imo |
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Wander Prian
Frozen Dawn Inc
Arctic Light
3
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Posted - 2013.05.09 07:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
It's gonna have about 10km more range on heavy neuts than a Bhaal and about the same range as a lvl5 recon curse with medium neuts. The thing to remember is that the bonus is to range and not amount, so while you get good range at a pretty cheap price, it's not gonna pack the same punch as curse/legion/bhaal. |
Fassin-Taak
Boris Johnson's Love Children
0
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Posted - 2013.05.09 08:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
No ofc it won't pack the same punch but a full rack of large neuts will still **** anything sub cap in seconds. Well worth it for the price I think. |
Wander Prian
Frozen Dawn Inc
Arctic Light
3
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Posted - 2013.05.09 08:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
Well... Come odyssey it's gonna go up in price to around where abaddon is atm... Though it's gonna be a great choice for starting neuters.
When you talk about wh-pvp, you usually want a ship that has the best effectiveness to mass- ratio. So if you bring a BS, you really want it to do something well as supposed to bringing a Tech3 or a BC. Another thing to notice about BS versus a tech-3 is that the BS is gonna be hit HARD. It's a big ship and an easy target, but if you don't expect to be hitting capitals, the geddon is gonna be a nice ship to have. Since we are all wormholers and we are famously space-rich, my personal favourites are a Bhaal and a neutlegion, though there's a special place in my heart for the pilgrim and curse as well.... Gonna be interesting to see how the geddon is gonna work out as a neuter. |
Britta Nolen
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.05.09 09:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
i need to buy some geddons. Coming soon, 5 geddons and 25 sentries. :D |
Fassin-Taak
Boris Johnson's Love Children
0
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Posted - 2013.05.09 09:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
Yeah I totaly agree mate. Id rather have a neut legion or bhaal in fleet any day. The geddon just seems to fit with what the OP was asking for. The prophecy could be used as a low mass alternative I suppose if you don't have logi to keep a curse alive for more than 10 seconds but it probably wouldn't be worth it imo. The New geddon will probably be best suited for small fleets that don't want to risk the sp/isk loss from losing a legion/bhaal fighting in their home system |
Tsukihi Phoenix
Hunter Heavy Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.05.09 10:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thanks for the replies, it seems that logi as opposed to neuts is the better choice. Originally this was our plan, but after a mean encounter with a bunch of jamming/neut scorps (**** you guys, seriously. no honor sometimes. XD) we were thinking maybe a couple of neut ships to cap out their ecm/neuts while our t3's tore them up. i s'pose the only threats to a logi group are bhaal/legions, which we don't seem to run into too often.
after crunching numbers anyways, it came out that a neut legion is something like 3 times as effective as a pilgrim/curse, considering a recon will probs get blown up every fight.
-Tsuki |
grassy 420
Boris Johnson's Love Children
5
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Posted - 2013.05.09 10:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
bhalgorn and nuet legion..
bahlgorn for caps
neut legion is hi's all nuets. lows all tank. mids. 1 point cap booster an AB.
my friend tested that fit on my proteus .. neuted me out to 0 in 2 cycles |
Wander Prian
Frozen Dawn Inc
Arctic Light
3
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Posted - 2013.05.09 10:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Talking from personal experience:
Bhaals don't do so well against blabdreads.... You can survive one, but 2 will kill you for sure. I ended up sitting at just the right spot for a moros to go full on assault on me a few months ago... I'd been dead in a heartbeat if it hadn't been for our friendly archon... Even with archon my armor kept jumping between 5-100% armor every time the moros shot me and the reps landed.
2 neutlegions are roughly the same as a bhaalgorn when it comes to neuts and the legions have the added benefit of being harder to kill by caps than the Bhaal.
ECM-scorps are always a PITA to deal with, especially if you don't have your own ECM. When building your fleet, go for logi first, then add the force multipliers of ECM/neuts/damps |
DrBmN
Axial tilt
10
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Posted - 2013.05.09 23:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cloaky neut buffer legion. |
chris elliot
EG CORP
Talocan United
168
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Posted - 2013.05.09 23:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
If you are flying without logi, use a curse and learn to kite. |
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