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Avicus Janvier
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
First some elaboration: I started playing about a month ago, i had a holiday which allowed plenty time of to play and because Eve has a steep learning curve I thought i would have a go at it at that time.
I joined a corps that was looking for newbies after one day , we got wardecced after one week. Turning the gameplay to the station waiting game, since I still had the holiday I just wanted to play more. I left the corps ( in good standing) after receiving a referral to another corps.
I joined the other corps and we got wardecced one day after I joined them , turning gameplay into another station waiting game. There were some fleet actions for which I totally was not ready and I am a little ashamed to say I left them also.
Since I still had a holiday I applied to another corps of which I knew they were wardecced but thought atleast i would learn how to cope with a wardec then. After a wardec related incident which led to in my opinion irreparable damage to my reputation within the corps, i left that corps with a very much bruised ego and returned to the NPC corps.
Now I have several options : I want to play the game more, I have not touched exploration yet which I know I would like. Of course I can stay in the NPC corps for a couple of months, but being a rather social player I would like to join a corps again But apparantly I am not suited at handling wardecs well.
How often does a normal corps get wardecced ? |

Haulie Berry
709
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:After a wardec related incident which led to in my opinion irreparable damage to my reputation within the corps, i left that corps with a very much bruised ego and returned to the NPC corps.
Looks like you're talking about Eve Uni, here. I am somewhat curious as to what you could have possibly done, as a weeks-old newbie, to besmirch your reputation in a newbie-teaching corp. Did you throw a tantrum on teamspeak or something?
Anyway.
Define "normal" corp. "New-player friendly" corporations are frequently wardec magnets.
In the long run, I think you will have better luck acclimating yourself to PvP than you will have trying to find a player-corp that never ends up in a war. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
645
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Avicus Janvier wrote:First some elaboration: I started playing about a month ago, i had a holiday which allowed plenty time of to play and because Eve has a steep learning curve I thought i would have a go at it at that time.
I joined a corps that was looking for newbies after one day , we got wardecced after one week. Turning the gameplay to the station waiting game, since I still had the holiday I just wanted to play more. I left the corps ( in good standing) after receiving a referral to another corps.
I joined the other corps and we got wardecced one day after I joined them , turning gameplay into another station waiting game. There were some fleet actions for which I totally was not ready and I am a little ashamed to say I left them also.
Since I still had a holiday I applied to another corps of which I knew they were wardecced but thought atleast i would learn how to cope with a wardec then. After a wardec related incident which led to in my opinion irreparable damage to my reputation within the corps, i left that corps with a very much bruised ego and returned to the NPC corps.
Now I have several options : I want to play the game more, I have not touched exploration yet which I know I would like. Of course I can stay in the NPC corps for a couple of months, but being a rather social player I would like to join a corps again But apparantly I am not suited at handling wardecs well.
How often does a normal corps get wardecced ?
Any corp that is actively recruiting is BEGGING for war decs. Especially if they are recruiting new players, because about 90% of new characters are actually experienced players creating spy alts, griefer alts, AWOX alts, etc.
Even if you are not actively recruiting, war decs will happen. My corp is just me and my alts, I never do any recruiting, and I still get a war dec every 2 to 3 months or so.
Unless you are a top notch PvP corp, the counter tactic to the war dec is not undock, or if the war persists, just to drop to NPC corp for the duration of the war, then rejoin the player corp. A new corp recruiting a bunch of newbs, trying to go toe-to-toe with an experienced PvP corp is asking to feed them kills. Feeding a PvP corp kills is a sure way to extend the current war dec, and bring even more war decs in the future.
Another thing you can do while wardec is active, if you don't want to drop to NPC corp, is to log into the test server and have mock-fights against your corp mates. None of the isk or stuff you get on the test server translates to the real server, but neither do the losses. Way better to learn how to PvP on the test server than on the real server against ecperienced PvPers.
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darmwand
Repo.
117
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
We've been war-dec'd like once or twice but they never showed up. Your best bet would probably be to join a PvP corp - not only will you learn how to defend yourself but you would also be much less likely to be dec'd in the first place.
Plus, you know, explosions & stuff. darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/
Recruitment is OPEN |

Forum Alting
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
It varies and structure of corp makes a different as well. Corps which are perceived to be large but generally weak are more likely to get war-decced. Unfortunately, these corps also tend to be the more newbie-friendly corps.
My advice is just stick with it. Unless the corp is literally flying apart under the war-dec, go out with cheap ships in as many fleet ops as you can. I remember the first time my main was in a war-decced corp and I made myself look like a buffoon on teamspeak with everyone forming up for an op and me being chased between systems by a hostile fleet.
Something like this: CEO "How'd they catch you, you're in a thrasher! Have they got interceptors or something?" Me "I kind of flew into Tama (low-sec system well known for its perma-gate-camp) because I thought they wouldn't follow." CEO "Camped?" Me "Yeah, took them a few seconds to lock me though." CEO "...and they caught you how?" Me "I tried to fly back through the gate on AB to escape the camp..." At this point my friend literally face-palms and I become the object of mockery on teamspeak for the next few minutes.
Good times.
I'm actually wondering what you did that was so bad you had to leave.
Back on top though, I'd estimate about 1 dec per month or two for a smallish industrial corp but that's a pure guess because it doesn't happen consistently enough for me to say.
So feel free to get your feet wet in fleet ops. Even if you don't want to risk anything fancy, I'd be surprised if they turned away a suicidal tackle frigate that at least tries to follow orders. |

darmwand
Repo.
117
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Forum Alting wrote: CEO "How'd they catch you, you're in a thrasher! Have they got interceptors or something?" Me "I kind of flew into Tama (low-sec system well known for its perma-gate-camp) because I thought they wouldn't follow." CEO "Camped?" Me "Yeah, took them a few seconds to lock me though." CEO "...and they caught you how?" Me "I tried to fly back through the gate on AB to escape the camp..."
 darmwand Repossession Agent http://www.repo-corp.net/
Recruitment is OPEN |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
646
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Forum Alting wrote:go out with cheap ships in as many fleet ops as you can.
Excellent strategy, if your goal is to get war decced more often and for the dec's to last longer.
This is exactly what the PvP corps want. If give them what they want, they are not going to leave you alone. The way to minimize war decs (duration and quantity) is to not give the war decers what they want.
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Haulie Berry
709
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Forum Alting wrote:go out with cheap ships in as many fleet ops as you can. Excellent strategy, if your goal is to get war decced more often and for the dec's to last longer. This is exactly what the PvP corps want. If give them what they want, they are not going to leave you alone. The way to minimize war decs (duration and quantity) is to not give the war decers what they want.
This is correct, if you are a complete pansy and view PvP as something that is inherently bad, and to be avoided at all costs. |

Forest Archer
Explorer Corps Disavowed.
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
HS corps are often the target of war decks unless they are the ones decking my best solution to avoid them is to leave HS but then you have other issues. I am not telling you to leave HS but it is the best way to avoid war decks as corps out of HS have ways around war decks should they occur. Always willing to help all you have to do is ask, though if your in the other fleet I may not help the way you want. Just a heads up. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
646
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:
This is correct, if you are a complete pansy and view PvP as something that is inherently bad, and to be avoided at all costs.
No reason to insult. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pansy
a usually disparaging : a weak or effeminate man or boy b usually disparaging : a male homosexual
How about, more interested in creating than destroying?
I don't see PvP as bad. It creates the demand for the goods and services I produce. I just prefer to not participate.
There are many, many players that enjoy PvP, and thank goodness EVE has them. I do not think they are bad, or evil. I just have different subjective tastes, and enjoy doing different things.
And, I'm not effeminate or a homosexual. I'm just.... old. Too old for the teenage BS, Epeen waiving that is most of EVE PvP.
|

J'Poll
Aegis Consolidated
2176
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Avicus Janvier wrote:First some elaboration: I started playing about a month ago, i had a holiday which allowed plenty time of to play and because Eve has a steep learning curve I thought i would have a go at it at that time.
I joined a corps that was looking for newbies after one day , we got wardecced after one week. Turning the gameplay to the station waiting game, since I still had the holiday I just wanted to play more. I left the corps ( in good standing) after receiving a referral to another corps.
I joined the other corps and we got wardecced one day after I joined them , turning gameplay into another station waiting game. There were some fleet actions for which I totally was not ready and I am a little ashamed to say I left them also.
Since I still had a holiday I applied to another corps of which I knew they were wardecced but thought atleast i would learn how to cope with a wardec then. After a wardec related incident which led to in my opinion irreparable damage to my reputation within the corps, i left that corps with a very much bruised ego and returned to the NPC corps.
Now I have several options : I want to play the game more, I have not touched exploration yet which I know I would like. Of course I can stay in the NPC corps for a couple of months, but being a rather social player I would like to join a corps again But apparantly I am not suited at handling wardecs well.
How often does a normal corps get wardecced ?
The high-sec corps that get wardecs are getting those because they made themself a target for wardecs in one way or another.
Flying around with uber pimped ships and obvious behavior of a carebear and griefers will see that and wardec.
Ranting, raging or ******** behavior against another corp can give you a wardec.
A lot of corporations don't get wardecs because they are doing it right. They play while not making a big target out of themself.
BTW, you don't NEED a corp to be social. Plenty of public channels in EVE where you can talk and make friends. You don't have to be in the corp to do stuff together too, you can fleet up with anybody.
Also, if a corp is that upset because you lost something to a wartarget, they are clearly a **** corp and you don't want to be part of those corps. They take space pixels too seriously, instead of whining/raging about the loss they should have helped you in the war mechanics etc. When a WoW player leaves to return to WoW, the avg. IQ of both games rises. Request to CCP: Please patch stupidity out of the game for Winter 2013. Professional Forum Thread locker. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
646
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Also, if a corp is that upset because you lost something to a wartarget, they are clearly a **** corp and you don't want to be part of those corps. They take space pixels too seriously, instead of whining/raging about the loss they should have helped you in the war mechanics etc.
Last time I had a high sec industrial corp, our corp policy was to NEVER undock during war dec, EVER. The one exception was if you were a designated POS fuel tech, then you could go straight from station to POS and back, in a rookie ship. An alt would take the fuel to the POS and you could just be there to move the fuel.
If you wanted to undock, drop to MPC corp for the duration of the war.
But, this was our stated policy, and you had to agree to this before joining the corp... So we weren't forcing the policy on anyone. They were choosing to join a corp that had this policy.
Violate the policy, you were out of the corp, period, no discussion.
It worked well at discouraging war decs and keeping them very short when they did happen. |

Haulie Berry
710
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Too old for the teenage BS, Epeen waiving that is most of EVE PvP.
I'm not saying this isn't out there, but the vast majority of my engagements have very little communication between parties beyond a simple, "GF", and maybe some post-game analysis if the fight had an unexpected conclusion. |

J'Poll
Aegis Consolidated
2176
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:J'Poll wrote:Also, if a corp is that upset because you lost something to a wartarget, they are clearly a **** corp and you don't want to be part of those corps. They take space pixels too seriously, instead of whining/raging about the loss they should have helped you in the war mechanics etc. Last time I had a high sec industrial corp, our corp policy was to NEVER undock during war dec, EVER. The one exception was if you were a designated POS fuel tech, then you could go straight from station to POS and back, in a rookie ship. An alt would take the fuel to the POS and you could just be there to move the fuel. If you wanted to undock, drop to MPC corp for the duration of the war. But, this was our stated policy, and you had to agree to this before joining the corp... So we weren't forcing the policy on anyone. They were choosing to join a corp that had this policy. Violate the policy, you were out of the corp, period, no discussion. It worked well at discouraging war decs and keeping them very short when they did happen.
Typical Carebear policy.
Good luck in EVE. Be prepared to spin ships a lot. Most corporations wardec carebears, not for kills, but to ruin their carebearing time.
I totally agree, take cheap stuff, undock, Win that war or die trying.
OP: I have 2 alt corporations...both almost 2 years old...NEVER BEEN wardecced (1 did wardec someone who pissed me off) When a WoW player leaves to return to WoW, the avg. IQ of both games rises. Request to CCP: Please patch stupidity out of the game for Winter 2013. Professional Forum Thread locker. |

Forum Alting
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Forum Alting wrote:go out with cheap ships in as many fleet ops as you can. Excellent strategy, if your goal is to get war decced more often and for the dec's to last longer. This is exactly what the PvP corps want. If give them what they want, they are not going to leave you alone. The way to minimize war decs (duration and quantity) is to not give the war decers what they want.
My apologies, perhaps I should've been more specific and provided more context for the above comment.
If your attackers are after good fights then having good fights or (admittedly more likely if your attackers are organized) giving them free massacres might prolong that period which non-pvpers might find unpleasant. In that case, feel free to make them miserable by confining yourself to stations and hoping they get bored and go away before the rest of your corp does.
My advice was based on the assumption that as the OP is obviously not a routine pvper, the corps he joined were biased towards industry. War-deccing this sort of corp is more akin to walking into a barn full of chickens with a big stick. Not good fights, therefore the attackers were more likely to be looking for easy kills. If you can find a decent FC and convince the rest of the corp just follow instructions then you stand a good chance of scaring them off.
From what I've seen, the last thing a corp looking for easy kills wants is for their opponents to turn the tables and destroy the attackers.
So if you want a qualifier, my original statment only applies if you don't mind PvP and your attackers are just preying on the week |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
646
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
J'Poll wrote: The high-sec corps that get wardecs are getting those because they made themself a target for wardecs in one way or another.
Actively recruiting is usually more than enough to make yourself a target. Mining rocks in a good system, with refinery, close to a trade hub can also bring you a war dec . |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
646
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 17:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Typical Carebear policy.
Good luck in EVE. Be prepared to spin ships a lot. Most corporations wardec carebears, not for kills, but to ruin their carebearing time.
I totally agree, take cheap stuff, undock, Win that war or die trying.
OP: I have 2 alt corporations...both almost 2 years old...NEVER BEEN wardecced (1 did wardec someone who pissed me off)
Be prepared to spin ships? No. That is what NPC corps are for. |

Volibear Trojan
Habu Lords Europa Network
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 18:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:J'Poll wrote:Typical Carebear policy.
Good luck in EVE. Be prepared to spin ships a lot. Most corporations wardec carebears, not for kills, but to ruin their carebearing time.
I totally agree, take cheap stuff, undock, Win that war or die trying.
OP: I have 2 alt corporations...both almost 2 years old...NEVER BEEN wardecced (1 did wardec someone who pissed me off) Be prepared to spin ships? No. That is what NPC corps are for.
I'm sorry im pretty new, but are you saying if I wardec you, you'll stop playing?
So like -- if I don't like you personally I should just keep wardecing you and you'll stop playing until it's over?
this games fun i promise newbies! This tactic doesn't sound like the best to be telling new people who want to have fun!
I would just say stick to an NPC corp! |

J'Poll
Aegis Consolidated
2176
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 18:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:J'Poll wrote:Typical Carebear policy.
Good luck in EVE. Be prepared to spin ships a lot. Most corporations wardec carebears, not for kills, but to ruin their carebearing time.
I totally agree, take cheap stuff, undock, Win that war or die trying.
OP: I have 2 alt corporations...both almost 2 years old...NEVER BEEN wardecced (1 did wardec someone who pissed me off) Be prepared to spin ships? No. That is what NPC corps are for.
So you say...if you get wardecced just leave the corp...That will end up well...shitload of corps in your history, nobody will hire you eventually
When a WoW player leaves to return to WoW, the avg. IQ of both games rises. Request to CCP: Please patch stupidity out of the game for Winter 2013. Professional Forum Thread locker. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
646
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
J'Poll wrote: So you say...if you get wardecced just leave the corp...That will end up well...shitload of corps in your history, nobody will hire you eventually
You are thinking PvPer, where you don't trust people that bounce corps too often.
If I'm recruiting industrialists, and I see him bouncing from Corp1 to NPC to Corp1 to NPC, to Corp1..... Or I see him bouncing from MyCorp1 to MyCorp2 to MyCorp3, then back to MyCorp1... Well, this is EXACTLY what I'm looking for in a potential recruit. MUCH, MUCH better that someone with an ugly kill board because they lost a bunch of ships to PvPers that war dec'ed his corp. |

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
647
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Volibear Trojan wrote:[
I'm sorry im pretty new, but are you saying if I wardec you, you'll stop playing?
So like -- if I don't like you personally I should just keep wardecing you and you'll stop playing until it's over?
What us carebears do, when we get a war dec, is drop to an NPC corp, or create a new corp and join that, then go on playing.
The PvPers, that war dec industrialists hoping to get easy kills get soooo frustrated when we refuse to give them what they want, but that is not my problem. I just keep on playing in a way that I enjoy playing, mostly ignoring their war dec's. |

J'Poll
Aegis Consolidated
2176
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Volibear Trojan wrote:[
I'm sorry im pretty new, but are you saying if I wardec you, you'll stop playing?
So like -- if I don't like you personally I should just keep wardecing you and you'll stop playing until it's over?
What us carebears do, when we get a war dec, is drop to an NPC corp, or create a new corp and join that, then go on playing. The PvPers, that war dec industrialists hoping to get easy kills get soooo frustrated when we refuse to give them what they want, but that is not my problem. I just keep on playing in a way that I enjoy playing, mostly ignoring their war dec's.
CCP should ban that behauvior...or at least give us the power to wardec NPC residents...
NO place in EVE should be safe.... When a WoW player leaves to return to WoW, the avg. IQ of both games rises. Request to CCP: Please patch stupidity out of the game for Winter 2013. Professional Forum Thread locker. |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
166
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
There are no carebears in EvE. There are hunters and prey. They are prey.
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NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
521
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
Its hard to say how often the average corp gets war decced. It depends on so many things like, are you recruiting, being in an alliance, where are you located, what ships do the members fly around in, smack talking/acting like an idiot in local or forums,how many members your corp has, previous war dec history and if it contains a lot of barge/hauler losses...
But you can not hide from wars in EVE. Of course you can join an NPC corp but that is not really hiding...more..distancing your self from a large part of the content making it more difficult to experience EVE at its full potential.
Do as other people here have suggested, go out in a cheap ship, have fun hunting down the war targets and if you die..well so what? As long as you had fun and learned something you can consider your self getting out ahead. The attitude CEO's and directors in general dont like is when someone is running around like a headless chicken and repeats the same mistakes over and over and refuse to listen to advice. But if you are out there, trying and learning you will most likely find that the CEO and directors will cheer for you and that other members will see that YOU are trying and dare to do the same them self.
If the war really drives you up the wall, and you know there is no chance and they camp you 24/7 create an alt corp. This way you and whoever wants to can join said alt corp just to "get out and stretch your legs" once in a while, without damaging your mains employment history and give the war deccing corp the morale boost of seeing the member count dropping thus encouraging them to keep the war going for even longer.
But no matter what you do, do not whine to the war targets about how bored you are or similar. This will give them exactly what they want, a proof of your frustration and "tears".
And in the long run..most wars only lasts for a week (i said most), and as you get older in EVE a week really wont seem like much and you will just use it as an excuse to play that new game you bough 6 months ago 
Phoibe Enterprises official recruitment thread The Eve Reader - -áAudio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
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Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Depends on how active you are and where you spend your time. I have been decced in the past, but generally as I keep a low profile I don't see much issues (even if they did I can log into other accounts lol). Plus now as wardecs are a lot more expensive than they used to (it used to just cost 2 million isk), it makes them more interested in finding very active corps so they can get as many kills as possible.
Generally though newbie corps are wardec magnates, every newbie corp I was ever in always got decced at least once. I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart. |

NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
521
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
And when we are speaking about wars.. I have not read the whole thread yet, but this might be of interest to the OP and people who are interested in this subject, since it also seems to cover different peoples opinions on what the purpose with a war dec is. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=235719 Phoibe Enterprises official recruitment thread The Eve Reader - -áAudio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
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Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
183
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
Best way to go about it is to find a corp, not run by new players looking for new players, but a corp looking for new players, run by experienced players, that can learn the new players how to fight back.
One of the most detrimental things in EVE is new players recruited in, sry to say, carebear corps, that has no clue what they are doing and tutoring them in nothing but kill x, mine y etc.
Is all good if thats what you wanna do, but as a new player, you owe yourself trying most parts of the game as possible. New player have a role almost everywhere but in c5-6 WH (and even there they can be of use). Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me - |

Avicus Janvier
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thank you all for your replies , they made me a lot wiser. I will stay in the NPC corp for now, see where my interests really are in the game and will look for a fitting non newby corp as soon as I shed my newbyness.I dont know when that will be but will find out I guess.
The learning curve is more steep then I thought, its not just about game mechanics. |

Archdaimon
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
185
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
You can't shed your noobines in a npc corp? Who is going to teach you?
Find some experienced players and throw yourself into the chaos. Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me - |

NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
522
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Archdaimon wrote:You can't shed your noobines in a npc corp? Who is going to teach you?
Find some experienced players and throw yourself into the chaos.
This.
If you stay in an NPC corp you might be safe from war dec's, but it can also be a very lonely experience since you dont really get a chance to know people on the same level as when in a corp (in my opinion) and it also puts limits on (or at least makes it harder) to experience EVE to its fullest.
So look for a new corp, hang around them for a while, ask questions, look up their war history and KB stats and how they have done in previous wars, look at the age of the corp and the members. If they have been around for a while you can be pretty sure that they are used to war decs and have ways to work around them.
Phoibe Enterprises official recruitment thread The Eve Reader - -áAudio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
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