Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
kraiklyn Asatru
T.R.I.A.D
245
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 23:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just figured it would be easy if it had a thread of it own instead of continueing in every new FW related thread.
@Devs this is not to troll, I just think it would really be best if it had a topic of its own.
Subjects include but are not limited to:
-The timer rolback. -Plex warning system -How to measure PvP performance.
|
Combatevolved
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 23:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Make Caldari plex faster. Will fix everything. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1416
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 23:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
-The timer rolback. Everybody agrees this is a great idea. There is no debate on this. -Plex warning system. *SIGH* -How to measure PvP performance. However you want.
The fundamental argument is that Cearain thinks FW occupancy warfare is utterly broken and I think it is flawed but workable.
His evidence is that farming alts in backwater systems (which are a majority of the systems) are able to outplex pvpers.
My evidence is massive numbers of kills racked up while fighting for occupancy - mainly by attacking systems that are actually populated by FW players.
/thread for me. o/ |
Combatevolved
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 00:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
One thing I don't like about rollback timers is we are able to run the timers almost capped so the farmers have to sit there that much more longer. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
106
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 01:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
I wouldn't say rollback is universally favored. I don't favor it at least. But yes, some tweaks need to be made to the mechanics. For one, they need to reduce the lp payouts slightly or something to tamp down the farmers. Send the bastards to some other part of the game to gather their isk for rmt or whatever.
Also, since it hasn't been mentioned yet in this subforum, the Caldari farmer hordes are returning and the Minmatar farming hordes are returning home, it seems. So if Cerain is worrying about the Calamari Axis, it appears to be fine. Maybe that will get rid of his notification pleadings. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
943
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 03:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thanks for this thread. But the issue of whether fw sov inolves enough pvp (and what should be done) is something that will continue to come up and its not just me and XG. This topic will continue to come up as long as the top daily vp gainers killboards look like they do.
Couple of points:
My issue is not necessarilly "farmers." Its more accurately "rabbits." Rabbits are players who hide and plex and constantly run from pvp. Most farmers are rabbits but not all rabbits are farmers. Before we had lp for plexing we had rabbits and being a rabbit was the most efficient way to plex. It still is. Lots of defensive plexers are rabbits. They might not make much lp (so I wouldn't call them "farmers") but they win sov by running from pvp.
I really don't care if people want to make isk through pve. I have never had a big hang up with fw missions and in fact think they are a good form of low sec missions. But I don't think fw sov should be won by pve. The sov game should be pvp. I do think militias need better intel tools so they can be sure they have the opportunity to fight for every plex.
Combatevolved wrote:One thing I don't like about rollback timers is we are able to run the timers almost capped so the farmers have to sit there that much more longer.
I agree that this should ideally be a valid tactic. I would also not want my timer to go down if I leave it to fight someone in a plex right next to mine. That is why I think ccp should consider different forms of timer rollbacks. Perhaps the timer will only roll back if someone not in your militia is on grid with you or your accell gate. Otherwise it stays. There are many variations on the theme that can be tweaked.
Deacon Abox wrote: Also, since it hasn't been mentioned yet in this subforum, the Caldari farmer hordes are returning and the Minmatar farming hordes are returning home, it seems. So if Cerain is worrying about the Calamari Axis, it appears to be fine. Maybe that will get rid of his notification pleadings.
My problem with fw sov is that it is a carebear race. My problem is not that one faction or another is winning the carebear race. Better intel tools are necessary and (when combined with a form of rollback) sufficient to end the carebear race and make sov warfare a pvp game.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
222
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 06:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
There should be room for multiple playstyles in FW. That also means farmers, risk averse PvPers etc. EVE is not *play this way or don't play*
However, the balance is currently in favor of those who avoid all risk and just farm, since there is (with the current numbers of players) no way to counter them. A timer tickback would solve this problem, but still allow farmers to do their thing.
As for PvP influencing capture, this is (and should not be) a direct goal of FW. The most important goal is that the system *encourages* fun PvP. That it does. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
981
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think bridging the gap between the play styles and how it effects the war zone is the problem that needs to be addressed.
PvPsers pvp Farmers farm missioners mission
only one of those flip systems and effects the other two, nothing the other two do will ever effect the one.
Why not get paid a little more for pvping and have it effect the system you do it in, why not make missions more challenging than finding the agents in systems you can dock in etc and so on. Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg CCP Hilmar CEO > "why am i sweating, why is this game doing this to me"
|
1st-Garrentious WispBender
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Remove Caldari, it is the only way to save FW. |
JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote: PvPsers pvp Farmers farm missioners mission
only one of those flip systems and effects the other two, nothing the other two do will ever effect the one.
Cockbag thrashers do a pretty good job at blapping farmers when they jump into system. I'd say that affects systems not getting flipped (because they don't get plexed, because the plexers can't get to the plexes). |
|
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
984
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
JAF Anders wrote:Muad 'dib wrote: PvPsers pvp Farmers farm missioners mission
only one of those flip systems and effects the other two, nothing the other two do will ever effect the one.
Cockbag thrashers do a pretty good job at blapping farmers when they jump into system. I'd say that affects systems not getting flipped (because they don't get plexed, because the plexers can't get to the plexes).
very true, but you have to sleep - they do not. Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg CCP Hilmar CEO > "why am i sweating, why is this game doing this to me"
|
JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:
very true, but you have to sleep - they do not.
...
That's a good point. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
945
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Merdaneth wrote:There should be room for multiple playstyles in FW. That also means farmers, risk averse PvPers etc. EVE is not *play this way or don't play*
I tend to agree with allot of what you say. I think the risk adverse already have lots of activities in eve. FW missions and all sorts of pve other activities are offered. Gate camping, high sec wardecs, and null sec blob pvp are great options for risk adverse pvpers.
Merdaneth wrote: However, the balance is currently in favor of those who avoid all risk and just farm, since there is (with the current numbers of players) no way to counter them. A timer tickback would solve this problem, but still allow farmers to do their thing.
As for PvP influencing capture, this is (and should not be) a direct goal of FW. The most important goal is that the system *encourages* fun PvP. That it does.
I agree with that end goal. I think it should accomplish that goal much better.
I think the best way to make fw sov more fun is by making pvp have a larger influence on sov. IMO winning plexes/systems by pvp is much more fun than winning sov by having alts rabbit plex. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
486
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 17:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
FW is fine, it does not need any fixes |
Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company
153
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Just throwing in the 'Mission rats should not shoot their own militia'. Unless this makes the missions exploitable, idk. But even then there are ways to fix it.
Also, if you have some intel about some stabbed & cloaked farmers of your militia, that is gal or minmatar, please let me know, i'd love to try something :) |
Feffri
Dark Circle Enforcement Imperial Outlaws.
31
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 20:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
yes on roll back timers here.. also I would like to see each plex rat a little stronger as far as tank to stop t1 frigs with stabs and no dps from killing them. e.g a incursus with two stabs should not have enough dps to kill a rat in a small let a lont the cruiser in the medium. I'd like to see.
novice rat dps tank @ 100ish dps small rat dps tank @ 200ish dps and medium rat tank dps at 300 ish dps.
something along that line open for discussion would like to hear others thoughts on this. I feel that would stop people in stabs because they would not have the dps to break the rats tank solo at least while roll back would hurt cloaky plexers.
I would also like there to be more penalty for leaving a plex. If you are first into a plex you have a major advantage as far as range dictation and being set up. I think if you are forced to leave there should be a bigger penalty. I would like to see that any time gain on the timer from neutral status not only roll back if no one is there but double time back to neutral if defenders stay. As far as plexers that warp out constantly you can easily roll their timer back chase to next timer and roll it back so it is possible to defend against farmer. As far as actual sov warfare it means if you bring a fleet 9which has huge advantage if first in) and you are chased out or run out it hurts that much more. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
486
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Feffri wrote:yes on roll back timers here.. also I would like to see each plex rat a little stronger as far as tank to stop t1 frigs with stabs and no dps from killing them. e.g a incursus with two stabs should not have enough dps to kill a rat in a small let a lont the cruiser in the medium. I'd like to see.
novice rat dps tank @ 100ish dps small rat dps tank @ 200ish dps and medium rat tank dps at 300 ish dps.
something along that line open for discussion would like to hear others thoughts on this. I feel that would stop people in stabs because they would not have the dps to break the rats tank solo at least while roll back would hurt cloaky plexers.
I would also like there to be more penalty for leaving a plex. If you are first into a plex you have a major advantage as far as range dictation and being set up. I think if you are forced to leave there should be a bigger penalty. I would like to see that any time gain on the timer from neutral status not only roll back if no one is there but double time back to neutral if defenders stay. As far as plexers that warp out constantly you can easily roll their timer back chase to next timer and roll it back so it is possible to defend against farmer. As far as actual sov warfare it means if you bring a fleet 9which has huge advantage if first in) and you are chased out or run out it hurts that much more.
you sure know that taking 100+ dps out of frigate is not newbie friendly thing, some frigates may do it with low skills but not many. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
945
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Stabs aren't the problem. And messing around with rats will not help faction war sov. Having the computer ai win the war is not the way to go. Give players the tools they need so they can win the war.
The only reason someone in a stabbed ship will stick around is to let you know chasing them is pointless. But on all plexes you can easilly move 40k away from the warp in and also see people coming on dscan before they even land on grid with the accell gate.
Stabs don't reduce damage other than by taking up slots. 2 stabs are all you really need and several ships have 4 low slots. Forcing every ship to fill their lows with damage mods in order to kill rats is not a good idea.
Bottom line is even when we had multiple waves of rats with crazy ewar and dps rabbit plexing was alive and well. If anything reducing the strength of rats has promoted pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Feffri
Dark Circle Enforcement Imperial Outlaws.
31
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 22:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
wrote:
you sure know that taking 100+ dps out of frigate is not newbie friendly thing, some frigates may do it with low skills but not many.
Thats the idea :) a 10 day old alt that can make hundreds of millions of isk a day that can't be countered is ridiculous. Also the fact that it can run novice to medium with 2 stabs in the lows is dumb. They should at least have to fit a pvp ship.
Just my suggestion to hold back the farming hordes.. however I don't really care because like everyone i have alts and will just keep printing isk until they do something. :) |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
487
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 08:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Feffri wrote: wrote:
you sure know that taking 100+ dps out of frigate is not newbie friendly thing, some frigates may do it with low skills but not many.
Thats the idea :) a 10 day old alt that can make hundreds of millions of isk a day that can't be countered is ridiculous. Also the fact that it can run novice to medium with 2 stabs in the lows is dumb. They should at least have to fit a pvp ship. Just my suggestion to hold back the farming hordes.. however I don't really care because like everyone i have alts and will just keep printing isk until they do something. :)
so you want that fw would be place where only veterans could do something? |
|
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
280
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 10:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
kraiklyn Asatru wrote: Subjects include but are not limited to: -The timer rolback. -Plex warning system -How to measure PvP performance.
Timer rollback is definatelly a good idea. To be more specific I think it should be a panality for both sides: defender and offender. If you want to close a plex you have to sit there until it is finally closed. If for some reason no party is in a plex then the timer should rollback to the middle position with 1/3 of regular speed.
Plex warning is obsolete. Really. Measurement of PVP performance always has the big disadeventage that there is a lot of space for misuse.
What we really need is a solution to Off Grid Boosting. Boosting should only work on-grid. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
945
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 13:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Meditril wrote:kraiklyn Asatru wrote: Subjects include but are not limited to: -The timer rolback. -Plex warning system -How to measure PvP performance.
... Plex warning is obsolete. Really.....
Personally I am more interested in the reasons why someone likes or doesn't like a proposal than just stating a conclusion. What changed in plexing to make better intel tools obsolete?
IMO until fw sov in the vast majority of systems is controled by pvpers then pvpers should be given better intel tools to help them win the war through pvp. We clearly are not there yet.
Meditril wrote:
What we really need is a solution to Off Grid Boosting. Boosting should only work on-grid.
I couldn't agree more.
This breaks every part of the game. I think ccp looks sort of foolish tweaking all the ships for balance when ogbs just completely throws everything out of wack.
2 more cpu for this ship, 50 more hull points here, and a 2% agility boost for this one, etc etc, when the offgrid boosts can give ships the equivalent of about 3 extra slots that don't require any power grid or cpu.
They are like doctors fussing about a splinter in a patients finger and ignoring the shotgun wound in his chest. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Feffri
Dark Circle Enforcement Imperial Outlaws.
31
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 05:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:[quote=Feffri][quote=]
so you want that fw would be place where only veterans could do something?
no but if 100 is too much then it can change but you are letting 100number sidetrack my main point that a 10 old frig should not be able to solo all the plexes. Also this is a mmo and people should have friend at 100 two 5 day old frig characters could break 100dps. a truly new player should not be in the game 10 days roaming around low sec in fw by themselves with no guidance.
but if people agree with the idea then the numbers can be tweaked to what is decided to be best. however like i said i think this would decrease farming alts but either way works for me. current system i keep getting rich harder to plex means less farmers affecting the war zone.
|
Theroine
Justified Chaos
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 04:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
I think timer rollback should be a situational mechanic. Say I'm running a site and get chased out by an opposing faction player, if that player stays in the plex, the timer rolls back like now. If the opposing player leaves the plex, the timer doesn't move for a set time, let's say two minutes. After that, it starts to roll back at rate slower than if it were being deplexed. (Sorry if this has already been suggested in other threads, can't be bothered to check it out) At this point it's a cost/benefit plus risk/reward scenario for both players. Tears and frustration are as valid in EVE as kills and ISK.
As far as plexers in cloaky, stabbed ships go, I believe the penalties that already accompany these modules are all that are needed. Again, maybe this has already been covered, instead of messing with rat hp/dps why not make them react in a more cost/benefit, risk/reward fashion. Instead of mindlessly sitting in the site waiting to be popped, they react like anyone who is not immortal would and warp out. They are not as experienced as capsuleers, and their ships don't respond as fast, so there is more than enough time to point them once you enter the site, unless your modules slow you down. At this point the timer still isn't running. Since cowardice and its consequences is not how the rat wants to be judged/remembered, a minute or so later the rat warps back into the plex (fully repaired) and the cat and mouse game repeats itself.
Stabbed plexers get a little taste of their own medicine but they still get to run their plexes. Maybe they have to offline a stab or two to be able to lock the rat, but maybe they forget to online them and get caught by someone on the hunt.
Or maybe we could dial back the whining, HTFU and accept the fact that nothing is ever going to be perfect and please everyone (insert first world problems meme here).
Fly how you want! |
Woeful Animation
Turalyon Plus
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
I can certainly understand the experienced pilots being frustrated with the current system. But I am a rabbit. I can tell you the story from the standpoint of a rabbit.
I think the frustration goes back to a fundamental aspect of EvE. Early on the player must make a decision to either stand and fight or break off the encounter and run. As a new pilot, the decision to run is NEVER the wrong decision. I might miss out on capping a plex, but so what, there are plenty of other plexes to cap.
Unless or until a game mechanic is introduced that makes standing and fighting more advantageous than running you won't solve the problem. Punishing the runner will decrease the number of people engaging in FW (or plexing), and doesn't ultimately solve the problem. Adding HP or DPS to the rat just increases the entry level for the inexperienced player and cuts down the numbers. Again you want more people participating. Not less. The more that participate the more likely you are to get fights.
Since I don't believe that crying about the problem solves anything, here are a few suggestions from the rabbits point of view.
1. Rabbits run because they can and they have nothing better to do than watch local and hit D-scan for the first signs of trouble. Put rats in the defensive plex, have them spawn every few minutes. Keep the player busy. Busy players don't cloak up. Busy players don't have the luxury tapping d-scan once every few seconds.
2. Put rats in the plexes with sensor dampening skills. Make them progressively harder depending on the size of the plex. Novice, regular easy low sec rat. Small, put on sensor damps, ECM mods. Medium make the rat more complex and more powerful. Spawn them on a timer when ever the plex is active. A novice player should be able to run. A medium/large plex should be harder.
3. Give the plex certain boosts. If you make it so that I have more armor and shield and I stand a chance in the plex against a tougher opponent. I will stand and fight more often, if I feel like I have a chance. The battle will be longer, but the ultimate outcome should be the same. Give me a chance to learn from the fight.
4. LP farmers will still run. A stripped frig with a cloak and pilot who pays attention is practically invulnerable. Fix that problem. Focus on that solution, and the vast majority of the issues seen under the current system will be resolved. IMO. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
950
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Woeful Animation wrote:I can certainly understand the experienced pilots being frustrated with the current system. But I am a rabbit. I can tell you the story from the standpoint of a rabbit.
I think the frustration goes back to a fundamental aspect of EvE. Early on the player must make a decision to either stand and fight or break off the encounter and run. As a new pilot, the decision to run is NEVER the wrong decision. I might miss out on capping a plex, but so what, there are plenty of other plexes to cap.
Unless or until a game mechanic is introduced that makes standing and fighting more advantageous than running you won't solve the problem. Punishing the runner will decrease the number of people engaging in FW (or plexing), and doesn't ultimately solve the problem.
I believe your our last two sentences at least somewhat conflict with eachother. I do agree with the first sentence but not the second.
Woeful Animation wrote: Adding HP or DPS to the rat just increases the entry level for the inexperienced player and cuts down the numbers. Again you want more people participating. Not less. The more that participate the more likely you are to get fights.
Since I don't believe that crying about the problem solves anything, here are a few suggestions from the rabbits point of view.
1. Rabbits run because they can and they have nothing better to do than watch local and hit D-scan for the first signs of trouble. Put rats in the defensive plex, have them spawn every few minutes. Keep the player busy. Busy players don't cloak up. Busy players don't have the luxury tapping d-scan once every few seconds.
2. Put rats in the plexes with sensor dampening skills. Make them progressively harder depending on the size of the plex. Novice, regular easy low sec rat. Small, put on sensor damps, ECM mods. Medium make the rat more complex and more powerful. Spawn them on a timer when ever the plex is active. A novice player should be able to run. A medium/large plex should be harder.
3. Give the plex certain boosts. If you make it so that I have more armor and shield and I stand a chance in the plex against a tougher opponent. I will stand and fight more often, if I feel like I have a chance. The battle will be longer, but the ultimate outcome should be the same. Give me a chance to learn from the fight..
Increasing the power of the npcs will, if anything, give more reason to fit a pve ship and avoid combat. This was an issue before ccp fixed the npcs.
As far as giving the plexers more armor I think that doesn't really make sense. It assumes the person in the plex is always a beginner that needs extra armor/shields. But this isn't the case. If new players need more advantages then ccp should give that to them - like they did with the implant that gave them more dps etc for a limitted time. But that is really a different issue.
Woeful Animation wrote: 4. LP farmers will still run. A stripped frig with a cloak and pilot who pays attention is practically invulnerable. Fix that problem. Focus on that solution, and the vast majority of the issues seen under the current system will be resolved. IMO.
It doesn't matter how many guns or shields a ship has. If the system is such that you can capture plex after plex without having to fight anything but rats, then the best plexers will just run to the next plex. We used to have stupid numbers of rats spawning and it was tough to run a major plex solo in a fully pve dominix. We still had the same problems we do now - in that the best way to gain sov was by running from pvp.
Let players know where plexes are being captured and the pvpers will/can come fight for them. Until that happens hide and seek plexing will remain the best way to capture space.
Woeful Animation wrote: Before the flames begin:
1. I think that the current FW system helps entry level players get involved in the basics of PvP. That feature should be preserved.
2. The current model favors less risk vs reward. Balance the scales towards more reward based on more risk.
3. The stripped Frig can win the war. Change that. I can take a off the shelve T1 Frig and plex all day and by myself ruin the weeks worth of offensive plexing.
4. Counter off-grid boosting in FW locations. I don't care how, but a double repped incurus should not be able to go 5 on 1 and win.
1) I think entry level players should get involved too. I was a new player in faction war before too. But I didn't expect that my 2 month old character could have a bigger impact on sov than a 3 year old veteran pvp character. Unfortunately due to the continued hide and seek plex mechanics that is and always has been the case. Thats a big reason why no one cares about fw sov/occupancy.
2) The risk of pvp needs to go up. Once that happens the rewards will go up because the lp will eventually be worth something again. (ccp may need to nerf the mission pay if plexing becomes more risky)
3) Yes that needs to change. Everytime someone attacks a militia's military complex they should expect the players to come defend it. Unfortunately that is not happening. It is too boring, to constantly roam all of fw space looking to see if plexes are being captured. CCP should provide better intel tools to help pvpers defend/attack space.
4) Yes I agree. If they can't completely do away with ogbs then perhaps count deadspace plexes as another system. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |