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BS obsolete. Frigs overpowered.

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Tar om	Posted - 2005.10.24 09:01:00 - [1] I'm not using this as a thread to boast about kill ratios. I'm here to say that the very simplest of all tactics (Lots of cheap ships in once big blob) is far too powerful. I'm trying to work out why people should bother training for Battleships now that I've seen what a well run frig fleet can do. Last night RAZOR alliance inflicted over 60 kills on ASCN including several BS, cruisers and HAC for the loss of about 5 Interceptors and T1 Frigs. I realise that people want their PvP to be fast and exciting, I realise the BS are slow - but for the love of ISK - the pendulum has swung waaaaay to far towards the disposable frig lobby. Now, the tanking increases will help BS against frigates but it won't help them fight back. BS also need the following options: 1. Special large turrets specifically for frigs. For a Minmatar this could be Quad 280s - they fit 4 frigate guns in the same mount with exactly the same attributes as a single 280 but x4. There should be a long and short range version for each race. I don't know whether Caldari would want a new launcher type, a new use for the assault launcher, or just use quad hybrids... you call it 2. Lower the lock time vs frigates. BS have large sensor arrays with higher power. Reduce the lock time vs frigates by about 30%. The low sig res will still affect turrets and missiles, just not have such a big effect on sensors. 3. Fix backup arrays. They are unchanged since the EW revisions and currently useless. BS pilots should be able to sacrifice a slot for a better chance to survive a jamming/damping attempt. One backup array should make a ship 50% harder to jam. Please note that I'm not asking for any changes that will make BS pilots able to destroy frigates without compromising their setup vs other BS. I am asking for more fitting options, not a winbutton. It will still be up to the individual to make the right choices during setup, and the right decisions during combat to ensure sucess. Tar om -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2005.10.24 09:30:00 - [2] Thought that was gonna be a whine thread. Boy was I relieved :P I think gank fleets of frigates should be able to kill BS's etc, though. It's just the way it is. If you inflicted so many BS kills etc, it simply means they didn't have adequate Intie/Frig support of their own, imo. And remember, battleships can use small guns too. A battleship kitted out to kill frigs (eg, Tempest w/ 6 200mm AC, 2x Assault, Dual Web, tracking PC, etc etc) does serious damage, and although it's not special per se, it's tank should mean that it can take out a very large number of frigs before it gets taken down, if at all. I think the option to use small guns is what keeps cruiser/BS sized anti small ship weapons from being used. After all, if BS got quad 280s or whatever, then there would be no point to frigs other than to tackle. _______________________________ cd /usr/everaces/minmatar more\|moaning
Douglas McCracken	Posted - 2005.10.24 09:35:00 - [3] Tanking changes will help the BSes as will the changes to plates, we wont see so many invincible intys flying about. 1) I dont like the idea of special anti-frig turrets for BS, they are supposed to use low tracking guns and have frig support. 2) this is easily done with a sensor booster 3) Agreed, backup arrays suck at the moment and need a boost.
Har Ganeth	Posted - 2005.10.24 09:35:00 - [4] Edited by: Har Ganeth on 24/10/2005 09:35:18 A well organised fleet of frigs should always be able to take down a BS or two. If you have a fleet of 8 frigs, you could have a couple to sensor damp/jam, a couple to concentrate on any drones, and then 4 webbing and concentrating on doing the damage. 4 incursus and 4 maulus are going to ruin most people's day... Don't get caught alone with your pants down, that's what i say.
Keta Min	Posted - 2005.10.24 09:37:00 - [5] fact is the BS die solo, flying without any protection. how many did you have in your frig gang? 10? more? well that's 10(just a number) pilots using organized tactics and teamplay vs one that didnt think about escort. remember pilots + brains are a much more valueable resource than shipvalue in isk. so yea i think it doesnt need changes. it is good that flying a BS solo is discouraged imo.
Tar om	Posted - 2005.10.24 09:42:00 - [6] Well, even with an all frig gun setup the BS remains slow. The all frig fleet is the weapon of choice for any aggressor because of its high speed as well as its gank ability. The BS is also probably putting out less damage than a single frigate because altho it has more turrets, it doesn't get any bonuses for them. Perhaps bonuses should apply to weapon types (Proj, hybrid, missile, laser) instead of specific sizes of weapon type? Also, once you need frigs to defend a BS from frigs then there is no need to fly a BS at all. The battle becomes frig vs frig and the BS is the merely the 100m jackpot sitting on the table waiting till the frig battle is over. A smart outfit will leave the BS at home and bring more frig pilots. As above.... -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
CiaCheCait	Posted - 2005.10.24 09:45:00 - [7] Edited by: CiaCheCait on 24/10/2005 09:49:59 You've made a pretty one-sided and drastic statement. And one of the options you've given to remedy isn't that well thought out, either. 1.) A quad 280 is the exact same thing as a 1400mm with better tracking and faster refire (research helps . That's an "I win" button if I've ever seen one. 2.) Large sensor arrays to target large objects. Battleships were designed to combat battleships. While this would help, it would make the purposes of low signature radii ships almost worthless. Get a scan booster. 3.) Agree with fixing broken stuff. Any BS pilot worth their salt can set up an anti-frig rig. There's enough gear and skills out there as it is to make it not only possible, but effective. Problem is it can't be done with a decent BS setup as well, so it's either/or. A BS can take a tremendous amount of damage (compared to a frig) and can theoretically dish out as much or more. What it comes down to is if the pilot was prepared for exactly what was thrown at him/her. Edit to add. . . Quote: Also, once you need frigs to defend a BS from frigs then there is no need to fly a BS at all. The battle becomes frig vs frig and the BS is the merely the 100m jackpot sitting on the table waiting till the frig battle is over. A smart outfit will leave the BS at home and bring more frig pilots. Or use a frig to hold another one down slow enough so a BS turret can wipe it beyond oblivion. Think outside the box.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.10.24 09:59:00 - [8] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 24/10/2005 09:59:49 Can't beat flying cheap and dying cheap. No matter what you do it will still be like that. Well unless you totaly nerf frigs all together and make them 110 million a pop :) -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Tar om	Posted - 2005.10.24 10:20:00 - [9] Originally by: CiaCheCait Edited by: CiaCheCait on 24/10/2005 09:49:59 You've made a pretty one-sided and drastic statement. And one of the options you've given to remedy isn't that well thought out, either. I notice you don't say that it isn't true.... Quote: 1.) A quad 280 is the exact same thing as a 1400mm with better tracking and faster refire (research helps . That's an "I win" button if I've ever seen one. So you admit that a frigate with 4 280s is worth 1/6 of a Tempest? Quote: 2.) Large sensor arrays to target large objects. Battleships were designed to combat battleships. While this would help, it would make the purposes of low signature radii ships almost worthless. Get a scan booster. It does not make low sig res worthless. Try some research into how sig res affects gunnery. I assume you mean Sensor Booster. Quote: 3.) Agree with fixing broken stuff. Any BS pilot worth their salt can set up an anti-frig rig. There's enough gear and skills out there as it is to make it not only possible, but effective. Problem is it can't be done with a decent BS setup as well, so it's either/or. A BS can take a tremendous amount of damage (compared to a frig) and can theoretically dish out as much or more. What it comes down to is if the pilot was prepared for exactly what was thrown at him/her. Which means that there is absolutely no point in flying a BS against frigs because you do a better job if you attack a frig with a frig and can do it for 100k. Once BS have to set up their entire slot array for anti frig, they become obsolete. Quote: Edit to add. . . Quote: Also, once you need frigs to defend a BS from frigs then there is no need to fly a BS at all. The battle becomes frig vs frig and the BS is the merely the 100m jackpot sitting on the table waiting till the frig battle is over. A smart outfit will leave the BS at home and bring more frig pilots. Or use a frig to hold another one down slow enough so a BS turret can wipe it beyond oblivion. Think outside the box. Quote: so. you suggest 1 BS and 1 Frig to kill a Frig. Can't you imagine that if your webber shot at the target instead of webbing it you wouldn't need the BS? The BS pilot could be in a (drumroll) another frigate and taking out another target solo. You see, there is no need for the BS in your scenario. The BS is obsolete. Tar om PS anyone who says "think outside the box" is not as clever as they think they are. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.10.24 10:24:00 - [10] Originally by: CiaCheCait 1.) A quad 280 is the exact same thing as a 1400mm with better tracking and faster refire (research helps . That's an "I win" button if I've ever seen one. I assumed he meant a gun with the range + tracking of a 280mm, but with BS fitting requirements and 4 times the damage of a 280mm. Originally by: Chowdown We camp a lot
mahhy	Posted - 2005.10.24 10:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Tar om Which means that there is absolutely no point in flying a BS against frigs because you do a better job if you attack a frig with a frig and can do it for 100k. Once BS have to set up their entire slot array for anti frig, they become obsolete. You shouldn't fly a BS to engage frigs. You fly a BS to engage cruisers and other BS. - BS kill cruisers/BS - Cruisers kill frigs/cruisers - Frigs kill BS/frigs
Ayanami Nova	Posted - 2005.10.24 10:33:00 - [12] I think it is totally correct that a fleet of frigates should be able to take down a battleship. Fleet combat should be mixed. Anyone who turns out with an entire fleet of BS is hoping for a quick kill against an enemy fleet of cruiers and BS, but the downside is that he is more vulnerable (not defenceless) against frigates. A simple answer is to use fast drones against the frigates or just have 1 or 2 support cruisers who have anti-frigate wepons but can also support the BS with EW. In the scenario of the lone pirate who whilst out hunting in a BS (which is setup to gank other BC's or cruisers) gets set upon by a 5 - 10 frigates... tough luck. If you choose to do something on your own in this game then you take a risk in the hope of greater profit.
Helpdesk	Posted - 2005.10.24 10:33:00 - [13] If you're bringing fleets with even numbers (when the hell does THAT happen? ;)), I'd rather be in the gang with some smart battleship pilots than the bunch of frigateers. Sniping tempests/megathrons tear up frigates from a distance while dominixes take 'm out from up close. Sure, 10 frigs do kill a single battleship, but when there's 2-3 more battleships around, the odds are that no frigate will be left over.
darth solo	Posted - 2005.10.24 10:40:00 - [14] in my gangs i get ppl to bring ships along to take down frigates.. Eagles are Very good at this, and so is the muninn.. another good tactic is by having a BS fitted with nos and a tank... with sensor boosters in med... the duty of that ship is to NOS the frigs... 1 large nos per frig is enough. so 6 frigs scarmabling ur gang will be neutralised. if u are flying a BS solo, fit 1 or 2 NOS. In EVE their is a counter pretty much everything. d solo.
elFarto	Posted - 2005.10.24 10:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: CiaCheCait 1.) A quad 280 is the exact same thing as a 1400mm with better tracking and faster refire (research helps . That's an "I win" button if I've ever seen one. I assumed he meant a gun with the range + tracking of a 280mm, but with BS fitting requirements and 4 times the damage of a 280mm. And for extra points make it use small ammo at 4 units a shot. Plus a battleship sized assault launcher and battleship sized heavy assault launcher (which is to a heavy launcher what an assault launcher is to a standard launcher). Regards elFarto Stratego > 2005.10.22 14:15:17 combat Imperium Alliance petitions you, glancing off causing no real damage.
Virida	Posted - 2005.10.24 10:56:00 - [16] I maybe isnt the best to discuss this, but isnt the design meant to encourage BS and frig's to cooperate, and maybe it dont work out that way? I sort of wonder if an all-out frig or an pure cruicer-battleship fleet is stronger than an frig-cruicer-battleship fleet?
Serj Darek	Posted - 2005.10.24 11:08:00 - [17] The solution is to use a mix of ships. Some Battleships and some Interceptors, the t1 frigs will have a bit more trouble then ;) This is what happened to Bunny: http://people.freenet.de/schnubelken/bunnys/
lythos miralbar	Posted - 2005.10.24 11:20:00 - [18] I have to agree in some ways with the OP on this one.. but only in some ways. A BS specificly fitted out to pwn frigs should be able to chew through 10 frigs with no problem at all. At the moment though without specific BS grade anti frigate weaponry this is dicey without Nos's + smartbombs etc and iffy even with them. I like the idea of quad, or even tripple or dual frig guns with bs fitting requirements. Exactly the same as normall frig guns except with 2 or 3 x the dammage. Probably just turn the dual weapons into propper dual weapons, same as base but with 2x the dammage. That way if you want to turn your BS into a friggy chewing mahine o'death and take on that 10 frig blob with a reasonable chance of coming out alive then go for it. But you'd better pray you dont come up against anything bigger like a couple of cruisers as they will be able to sit at 15km to 20km with you disrupted and pound on you tanking your dammage.. You'd probably need to use the middle class long range weapon eg 125mm railgun's so dammage at 15 to 20 km wouldnt nuke a cruiser.
Laythun	Posted - 2005.10.24 11:24:00 - [19] this is like a moot point. bs were NEVER designed to take on frigs, they were designed for prolonged fleet engagements. giving them weapons to kill frigs would be an imbalance tbfh, u could then just fly 2 bs around, 1 anti bs/anti frig one gank and pwn all. its fine the way there are, it just means the bs pilots have to be careful and employ TEAMWORK which the frig pilots are obviously doin.
Tar om	Posted - 2005.10.24 11:28:00 - [20] Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Tar om Which means that there is absolutely no point in flying a BS against frigs because you do a better job if you attack a frig with a frig and can do it for 100k. Once BS have to set up their entire slot array for anti frig, they become obsolete. You shouldn't fly a BS to engage frigs. You fly a BS to engage cruisers and other BS. - BS kill cruisers/BS - Cruisers kill frigs/cruisers - Frigs kill BS/frigs OK, but the point I'm making is that frigs make such a powerful and flexible fleet and the best counter to them is other frigs. This breaks the scissor paper stone effect that people keep talking about. Once you have a shipclass that specialises in destroying its own class, then it is obsolete - and cruisers still don't have much of a role in PvP. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
lythos miralbar	Posted - 2005.10.24 11:35:00 - [21] Quote: OK, but the point I'm making is that frigs make such a powerful and flexible fleet and the best counter to them is other frigs. This breaks the scissor paper stone effect that people keep talking about. Once you have a shipclass that specialises in destroying its own class, then it is obsolete - and cruisers still don't have much of a role in PvP. Exactly.. spot on. Make cruisers the bane of frigs, and you'll see more cruisers, then BS's will be rolled out to take on the cruisers. Frigs are still to powerfull vs cruisers atm to make this possible, so to deal with frig blobs people roll out BS. Then reults in BS's getting more and more nerfed. How to fix bs's? boost cruisers.. give all cruisers weapons 20% better tracking and 20% better sig resolution, and boost scan res of cruisers by 20%. That'll do it nicely.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.10.24 11:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Tar om OK, but the point I'm making is that frigs make such a powerful and flexible fleet and the best counter to them is other frigs. This breaks the scissor paper stone effect that people keep talking about. Personally I'd argue that a fleet of T1 Cruisers is much better suited to killing a fleet of frigs. 5 T1 cruiser fitted to kill frigs against 10-15 frigs, the cruisers will win if the teamwork is there. Might be a cruiser killed or two in the process, but eventually they'd win Cruisers also have a secondary role, IMO, in killing BS. Mixed fleet of frigs and cruisers will do a much better job of killing BS than just frigs alone (again, if the teamwork is there). Frigs grab, hold, and use ECM, the cruisers come in and do the hitting. Anyhow, you are right in a sense, that frig fleets are very powerful. I just happen to think that a mixed frig/cruiser fleet is even more powerful.
Laythun	Posted - 2005.10.24 11:37:00 - [23] right a balance fleet imo (wat i fly in ) is t2 frigs and maybe 2 cruisers ( HACs preferably ) the cruisers are there only to do dmg to larger ships thet the frigs would struggle against
Rutefly	Posted - 2005.10.24 11:41:00 - [24] So in generel speaking: Frigs pwn BS because 10-50 frigs can easily kill a BS. Thats alot of ppl online to deal with one guy/girl in the BS You cant say Frigates are way better than BS based on that. Its just rabble. What about one frig against 50 BS ? It all grinds down to that a lone BS is as silly as a lone frigate attacking a larger fleet.
Don't Panic	Posted - 2005.10.24 11:49:00 - [25] Thing is, for making money, BS are KING. And who the heck brings a bunch of frigs as escort when you're out NPCing working on your wallet? Or mining? That's a waste of your escort's time and money. So when you stumble across a lone NPCer or miner or whatever in your frig fleet, of course you're gonna gank him. Don't tell people to bring escort whenever they undock in a BS, that's just a silly thing to say.
Mangus Thermopyle	Posted - 2005.10.24 12:01:00 - [26] I heard of a guy yesterday that was ganked by 30 frigates in a BS. He had only smart bombs as weapons (and drones). He didnt tell if he survived or not, but he did tell that he got quite a lof of kill mails :) I can agree that tech 1 frigates are to powerful in some ways, if you factor in the cost. For example, a rocket kestral equipped with standard stuff is like 500k, and does almost as good damage as a crow which costs 10m. But the solution to make uber weapons for BS that can kill frigates AND be very effective against bigger ships is ofcourse bad, not to mention it would mess up the balance between missile BS and turret BS even more.
TheSoul	Posted - 2005.10.24 12:18:00 - [27] hehe we were gonna go wtf pwn that razor fleet. imo frigs arent overpowered. Blobbing is however. If you had 30 bships or even 30 cruisers you would of got just as many if not more kills. And wtf dont make it easier for a bship to kill frigs, that wil just make it harder for smaller gangs to kill stuff and encourage blobbing. You ganked some bships in HED-Gp. They all had sniper setups and had no defence against frigs, and the other bships probably had npc setups on, trust me if u came across a good anti frig bship u wouldnt be posting here :P
Fi T'Zeh	Posted - 2005.10.24 12:21:00 - [28] Ever tried taking stations / killing POS with a frigate ? Horses for courses ftw. ....
R31D	Posted - 2005.10.24 12:24:00 - [29] Ever seen what a fleet of cruisers can do to a frig fleet? BS > Cruisers > Frigs > BS Free bumpage for all
Fred0	Posted - 2005.10.24 12:28:00 - [30] Originally by: R31D Ever seen what a fleet of cruisers can do to a frig fleet? BS > Cruisers > Frigs > BS If you look at the ISK as the variable and judge them by risk vs reward. There's only one ship to fly in todays eve.

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