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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Drilla
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Posted - 2005.10.27 08:56:00 -
[1]
Oveur 'As pointed out, the EVE Combat rating is based on ELO. You don't get any increase for mindless killing - only if he's as good or better than you do you get an increase.'
This has to be the worst idea from CCP ever - how will you differnetiate 'good or better'? I've taken down people with alot more skillpoints or in better ships with better fittings - and I've lost ships to people with barely any skillspoints and bad fittings.
CCP, you need to be very open about this before you start working on this as the planning itself has to be open and include all the PVPers who wants to be included. You are talking about changing the game completely here.
Regardless, ELO is a bad thing when you dont have a level based leveling system but a skill based system. EVE is not what your skillpoints are but how you use them. To compare with WoW - a person in a battleship should have 99,9% resistance in all 4 damagetypes if fighting a frigate, because of this situation that low chars cant do full damage to high chars ensures that you dont have an exploitable system.
This is not how EVE is designed and if you are talking abot changing the entire PVP element of the game - you simply have to, if you care about the community, involve us before spendign manhours coding something that simply is broken and/or not useful for the game as a whole.
EVE is about teamplay, it's the only game where 2 year old players (damage) 'have use' for 4 months old players (tacklers), think long and hard about this before you change PVP.
Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost! |
Sweetpain
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Posted - 2005.10.27 13:50:00 -
[2]
someone with 200 kills kills someone with 2 kills get no points. someone with 2 kills kill someone with 200 kills get a point.
Good or better level or skill points dont matter, in the worst case scenario you could easily turn skill points in combat related skills in to directly count as level as well.
we might not have a level system like wow, but if you take away levels in wow all you have is experience points something that could easily be compared to skill points.
making a hens farm out of the one feather you found serve no point of a system that are still in the planning stage.
im pretty sure any system will take in to account the nessesary things to make the system work, and im guessing that also will include gangs sharing the victory as in any other system of this type anywhere in the wide online capture the flag contests type of games.
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Elfaen Ethenwe
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Posted - 2005.10.27 14:30:00 -
[3]
I would think that they would base it on the ships in gang against the ship sin the other gang.
Ie fleet of t1 frigs attack fleet of hacs and kill one they get lots of point.
A fleet of hacs that gank alone frig gets almost no points
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Drilla
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Posted - 2005.10.27 15:39:00 -
[4]
You cant base it on ships and gangs, it's way too hard to put in an effective system.
Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost! |
Paltar
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Posted - 2005.10.27 18:48:00 -
[5]
why ?
a fixed system of hac is better than cruiser which is better than frigate
no need to calculate fittings into it.
Also if you just count players it doesnt take the ship into account. or even the distribution and relavancy of the skills
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Hafthor
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Posted - 2005.10.27 19:19:00 -
[6]
This is afaik based on the ELO chess rating system.... what ppl here don't seem to be getting is that chess tournaments do not take into account what type of board or models the contestants play with.
It's a simple system where everyone starts at 0 points and get points for victory according to the points the opponent has. Sure gangs will come into it but it still doesn't change the system. You get more points for winning someone that is close to you or higher than you in points. End of story. No levels or bull****. A low points player that ganks carebears will get a few points for the first few kills but once the gap gets too big he gets no points. A high point player that looses to a low point player will lose points. Simple and effective.
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Drilla
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Posted - 2005.10.27 20:19:00 -
[7]
What if a high rated player in a faction BS encounters 15 T1 frigates (where he has no chance) and they are all lowlevel, he then kills 10 of them before going down.
He will loose points for killing them, and again loose alot of points when dying where as killing 10 out of 15 enemies in a 15v1 is something that should be rewarded.
ELO just doesn't cut it for EVE.
Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost! |
Lygos
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Posted - 2005.10.27 21:25:00 -
[8]
The only nagging concern is whether there are rewards and recognition for these high "scorers." The combined effect of this could lead to a uni-dimensional game.
The level of discourse on forums and other media will likely decline. Despite what one may be inclined to think from selective memory, the intelligence and social emphasis in conversation in most quarters of EVE veers to the higher end of middling. Delicate meritocratic "institutions" in EVE will be affected rather severely, and not necessarilly for the better.
Additionally, it can result in the further isolation of segments of the game population. Whereas currently we have many small sects and cliques of cultures and gamestyles that pursue a modicum of interaction, we will likely have one gigantic, uncouth majority that with shunt most other arenas of activity to the wayside. In biological terms, there will massive dieoff following the gradual speciation of EVE participants of the past few years.
Short version: Inserting objective goals into a delicately constructed political and social environment like EVE would be highly disruptive.
"Everything I love is combustible." |
Lygos
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Posted - 2005.10.27 21:35:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Drilla
What if a high rated player in a faction BS encounters 15 T1 frigates (where he has no chance) and they are all lowlevel, he then kills 10 of them before going down.
He will loose points for killing them, and again loose alot of points when dying where as killing 10 out of 15 enemies in a 15v1 is something that should be rewarded.
ELO just doesn't cut it for EVE.
Heh, ignoring everything I said in the previous post, I think the frig pilots earn the quality points for social organization. Not every point should be deserved on a technical basis.
You are right about chess scores and the uniform tools available to competitors. Therefore I must conclude that the most appropriate application of ELO scores would be to groups of players, such as entire corporations.
A corp ELO score would emphasize the mix of options available in a general sense to fleets. Then it becomes and issue of the virtues of mixed and non-mixed fleets. Additionally, the scoring makes an imperfect, but acceptable nod to non-technical factors such as social and organizational prowess. It is still classifies as an objective goal however.
A much better "scoring" system for EVE would be multi-polar. The faction system in EVE is the closest to multipolar scoring we have. Point scoring for individuals within Alliances or Corps would be demonstrable as multi-polar scoring even if on uni-dimensional bases.
"Everything I love is combustible." |
Sweetpain
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Posted - 2005.10.27 23:37:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Sweetpain on 27/10/2005 23:40:55
Originally by: Drilla
What if a high rated player in a faction BS encounters 15 T1 frigates (where he has no chance) and they are all lowlevel, he then kills 10 of them before going down.
He will loose points for killing them, and again loose alot of points when dying where as killing 10 out of 15 enemies in a 15v1 is something that should be rewarded.
ELO just doesn't cut it for EVE.
A vital part of combat are tactics, knowing when to fight and when to reetreat for another day.
A rating system will state the best in combat not the best in duels or fighting.
to use the chess example as someone did before. the victor is declared when the macth is over, they dont count how many pieces one or the other lost to declare it.
if a bs pilot with 50 points are faced with 10 frigate pilots each have 70 points, the bs pilot will gain points every time he kill a frigate while the frigates get a few to zero for killing the bs.
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Clementina
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Posted - 2005.10.28 03:58:00 -
[11]
A Rating system for pilots would be bad.
First, the reasons for combat to take place are subjective, Accomplishment of your goals as a corp or alliance cannot be measured by some number if your goals are political in nature. If your goal was to chase some corp away from some system, it dosn't matter if the enemey's members had 2/1 kills on you. If they left, they lost. Ransom pirates don't really care if they have bad kill ratios if they also get paid lots in ransom.
Second, this would encourage the whoring of this ransom system in order to look l33t. This would be detrimental to real fighting.
Third, lots of events in Eve are not well defined. What is a 'win'? I rememember a fleet battle where [5] sank more battleships, but F-E held the field afterwards. Who 'won' that fight? Does running away from 2 hacs and a battleship in a cruiser count as a 'win' a 'loss' or a 'draw'? Also what is a 'fight' does a 30 BS gate camp versus a hauler count as a 'fight'?
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Cyberstrike2027
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Posted - 2005.10.28 04:26:00 -
[12]
I think this is solely for ship deaths. Gangs will have to be balanced, but overall I could see this working.
Unless it's based on something other than simple ship deaths combined with gangs, then eve's vagueness just overwhelms the system, as per the previous post.
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http://freestate-graphics.neostrada.pl/eve_chart-4096.jpg
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Derron Bel
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Posted - 2005.10.28 06:10:00 -
[13]
well obviously you could impose modifiers based on ship types. ie dying in an industrial should barely effect your combat rating. I mean that's something obvious and simple. I'm sure they'll take that into account.
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
Elfaen Ethenwe
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Posted - 2005.10.28 07:55:00 -
[14]
hey lygos, can I have a link to your post fluffer :)
Counting each combat as a single data set of pilot v pilot or ship v ship without taking into account gangs / groups etc is silly.
Look at everyones kill boards that use points. They give reduced points for the number of people on the kill mail.
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Drilla
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Posted - 2005.10.28 17:36:00 -
[15]
As you can see here WoW is suffering under their ELO based PVP system as it has become a mindless grind and there's no real player involvement.
This is what I'm affraid off - that the player run political system in EVE will be come secondary to having a high rank and little by little the game becomes mindnumbing grind.
Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost! |
tester951a
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Posted - 2005.10.28 21:13:00 -
[16]
While the system has an advantage : lowering sensless killing is a good thing imo, i can see that something as simple as awarding points only for kills will have it's effect on PvP all together and not in a positive way.
People might be less interested in fighting against players with lower points, incase they lose, they might lose alot of their precious kill-points. And this might indeed move the importance of PvP to getting high points instead of fighting for important goals and this does indeed not fit EVE at all.
If there has to be a score system at all, let it be some kind of corp mission, where players get points for killing enemies in a war, or killing people with negative standing, and in there you can use the ELO. On top of that these individual player points also add up to a corp ELO rating, which in turn can be used as a modifier in future ELO missions. F.i. a corp with high rating declares war to a corp with low rating, so there members won't get as much points as if they were to declare a corp with higher ELO rating.
Perhaps introducing more of such 'corp missions' might be in order then, like something that monitors the defence of a system or base...in general, stuff that moves combat to something with a goal rather than something that involves having many points or lots of killmails.
Personally i rather not see any score system, as it might lead to the same situations we have with killboards. Instead we might need something that allows merc corps to document their progress on a job (a mission from another corp?) with in-game means. For such things, a score system can be usefull. |
Hafthor
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Posted - 2005.10.28 23:26:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Drilla
What if a high rated player in a faction BS encounters 15 T1 frigates (where he has no chance) and they are all lowlevel, he then kills 10 of them before going down.
He will loose points for killing them, and again loose alot of points when dying where as killing 10 out of 15 enemies in a 15v1 is something that should be rewarded.
ELO just doesn't cut it for EVE.
You should have READ my post. A high point player does NOT lose points for killing a low point player, he doesn't get rewarded thats it. And I'm sure gangs will affect the rating so that a 15 person gang (no matter what ship they are in) gets small points if any for killing a single pilot.
What this system will bring to EVE PvP is additional reward for PvP. It rewards those that take on their equals instead of some noob. This will have minimal if any effect I think on most players apart from the most die-hard PvP'ers.
And as for adjusting points for ship type.. Why?
It is easy to fit a hauler to take out 'ceptors, a Scythe as well. Players have been having fun goading ppl to attack their "mining" Dominix for months with amusingly high success rates. If you are going to rate by ship type then why not rate by fitting.... or skills.... or time of day... the position of the moons.
Lets not complicate the system. This will bring a ranking system to EVE PvP without really having any ingame effect. The reason for WoW PvP grinding is that there is no risk, and plenty of rewards for everyone.
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Clementina
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Posted - 2005.10.29 03:01:00 -
[18]
Hafthor, there is no need for more rewards for PvP. PvP is ment to be a negative sum game, this is why most PvPers carebear for cash in order to afford PvP kit. If PvP turns into a zero sum game, due to rewards from some ELO system, then you get people who kill just to ***** the system; and if it turns into a positive sum game, you basically get WoW.
Also you might recall that most PvPers fight for things that are subjective anyway, like control of regions, or the most respect. If there becomes an ELO system that people can ***** for points, all that other stuff would be thrown out the window, to the detriment of the game.
Death to an Eve ELO system.
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Elfaen Ethenwe
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Posted - 2005.10.29 08:52:00 -
[19]
I PvP to watch ships go bang :)
I would still kill what I kill now points or no points.
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