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Marie Trudeau
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Posted - 2005.11.02 17:49:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Kaeleron
No one said the Amarr had to change their faith. Nor do they have too except what is being said. No one is asked to have anything forced upon them. Only to keep an open mind at the possibility. After that one can decide for themself which dream is worth achieving.
But what's being suggested here is at odds with the Amarrian faith, at least as I understand it. What you seem to be suggesting is that a religious Amarr should keep his mind open to changing his mind about his faith and its goals. In essence, that's at least planting the seed of betraying his faith, or being open to that.
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Is it wrong to combine those strengths for the good of all without erasing that which w individually hold dear?
Is this suggesting a melting together of the various bloodlines and cultural/political/religious traditions into one, incorporating the strengths and benefits of all of these?
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.02 18:37:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Marie TrudeauBut what's being suggested here is at odds with the Amarrian faith, at least as I understand it. What you seem to be suggesting is that a religious Amarr should keep his mind open to changing his mind about his faith and its goals. In essence, that's at least planting the seed of betraying his faith, or being open to that.
Is this suggesting a melting together of the various bloodlines and cultural/political/religious traditions into one, incorporating the strengths and benefits of all of these?[/quote
If the Amarr faith is at odds with such beleifs then that is the perogative of the Amarr. They are entitled to the views as peacefully as much as I am entitled to mine. I think that all should keep the open mind I speak of not soley the Amarr. I leave it to the individual to make thier decision.
As for melting into one? Not necessarity. One doesnt need to be combined politically to be combined unified. Many working for the common good of all can be much more effective.
--These views are not representative or indicative of any official policy or statement of any organizations I am party to.-- |
Marie Trudeau
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Posted - 2005.11.02 18:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Kaeleron
If the Amarr faith is at odds with such beleifs then that is the perogative of the Amarr. They are entitled to the views as peacefully as much as I am entitled to mine. I think that all should keep the open mind I speak of not soley the Amarr. I leave it to the individual to make thier decision.
That is what I understood as well, but the Amarr present a very specific problem for your proposal because the Amarr, alone among the Empires, believe in a universalist religion. So, my point was, and remains, that I don't believe the suggestions here will find much traction among the more devout of the Amarrians (of which there are many), and hence will be less likely to succeed in avoiding conflict with them. As such, it appears to be a proposal that is, in substance, inherently and intrinsically at odds with Amarrian faith and worldview, and inviting Amarrian believers to have an open mind about these matters is simply a soft way of asking them to reconsider their faith.
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Shemar
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Posted - 2005.11.02 18:55:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Marie Trudeau
Something that's often misunderstood is that for someone who believes in a universalist system, 'tolerance' of other beliefs is tantamount to a betrayal of their own.
What's proposed here can work for people who have no belief in a universalist system, but for those who do have such a belief, it requires them to disaffirm the universality of their own belief in favor of the tolerance and open-mindedness being proposed.
No, not exactly. It is not the universalist system itself that is the problem. Tolerance could just mean "allowing the rest to be wrong". It is when the belief system requires the conversion of others (like in the case of the Amarr) that the problem begins.
Trembling hands or nerves of steel, someone tell me what to feel. |
Aphoxema G
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Posted - 2005.11.02 19:06:00 -
[35]
Only one stone needs'a be dropped to make many fall, but every stone needs to be placed itself to keep'it'a 'gether.
It's Getting Close to That Hour... |
Marie Trudeau
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Posted - 2005.11.02 19:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Shemar
Originally by: Marie Trudeau
Something that's often misunderstood is that for someone who believes in a universalist system, 'tolerance' of other beliefs is tantamount to a betrayal of their own.
What's proposed here can work for people who have no belief in a universalist system, but for those who do have such a belief, it requires them to disaffirm the universality of their own belief in favor of the tolerance and open-mindedness being proposed.
No, not exactly. It is not the universalist system itself that is the problem. Tolerance could just mean "allowing the rest to be wrong". It is when the belief system requires the conversion of others (like in the case of the Amarr) that the problem begins.
Very well, but in either case essentially the suggestion is for the Amarrian faith (which underlies the totality of Amarrian culture and society) to be changed so as to no longer aspire to the conversion of the universe ... soemething which seems like a radical change, to be honest.
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Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2005.11.02 20:28:00 -
[37]
Marie is wise for a non-Amarr.
Humanity is not united in any way shape or form, and cannot be until the heathens of the universe admit to the overlordship of God.
As for this comment by Kaleigh.
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I struggle to deny those who forcefully impose their image upon me and accept those that tolerate who I intend to make for myself
Yet you also struggle to force your image on everyone else. You force your morals on other cultures, and then condemn them for their moral systems.
I see nothing wrong with this, save that I know you are wrong and that those who follow God are right. But it is a tad odd for someone who preaches such absurd 'freedom of belief' concepts to then ignore those very concepts that supposedly are held so holy when in regards to other cultures.
Its a trait I observe quite often on the part of your people. You never seem to be able to apply your own morals to yourself. At least the Amarran belief system that seems to be so reviled is consistant and logical.
God is with us. |
Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.02 20:36:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Kaeleron on 02/11/2005 20:37:50
Is that how you take it? No one had singled out the Amarr faith until you brought it to subject. The Amarr do not have to abandon any of their beleifs if it their wish, nay, their duty. The Amarr who so beleive in the conversion of the universe into the Amarr faith are of full right and privledge to hold these beleifs firm. I do no dispute their validity or importance. If the topic here is causing some to question their faith than I do hope that they look inside themselves and determine what they truly beleive. It matters not to me which path they so choose so long as choose it carefully and with wholehearted honesty that it is what they truly want. It seems that your comments Miss Trudeau are aimed at creating a confrontation between the two viewpoints. If these are in fact your intentions, do not worry, if it is meant to happen it will happen on its own time. I do not hold one's belief in the Amarr point of view any less important than my own. That can equally be said for other points of view that are present in today's societies. I do apologize if you veiw my ideals, or Aphoxema's ideals harmful. Regardless the decision of whether to listen or not does not belong to me for one can easily ignore what I say here now if one so chooses, and for that I would still hold no trespass.
--These views are not representative or indicative of any official policy or statement of any organizations I am party to.-- |
Marie Trudeau
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Posted - 2005.11.02 20:52:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Marie Trudeau on 02/11/2005 20:52:30
Originally by: Kaeleron
Edited by: Kaeleron on 02/11/2005 20:37:50
Is that how you take it? No one had singled out the Amarr faith until you brought it to subject. The Amarr do not have to abandon any of their beleifs if it their wish, nay, their duty. The Amarr who so beleive in the conversion of the universe into the Amarr faith are of full right and privledge to hold these beleifs firm. I do no dispute their validity or importance. If the topic here is causing some to question their faith than I do hope that they look inside themselves and determine what they truly beleive.
Very well. But for religious Amarrians to follow what has been suggested here, they would need to abandon a main tenet of their faith. That has been my point. That is true of none of the other races, which is why I have focused on the Amarr.
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It seems that your comments Miss Trudeau are aimed at creating a confrontation between the two viewpoints. If these are in fact your intentions, do not worry, if it is meant to happen it will happen on its own time.
No, I simply see it as pointless to beat around the bush. In order for what has been suggested here to work for Amarr, they must abandon their religious faith and/or 'interpret' it in a way that contradicts its teachings. Why not simply say that outright?
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I do not hold one's belief in the Amarr point of view any less important than my own. That can equally be said for other points of view that are present in today's societies.
But the issue is that religions are not 'points of view' ... they are matters of faith. And a religion, such as the Amarrian one, which sees itself as universalist and which holds universal conversion as its principal goal is not understood by its adherents as a 'point of view', but as objective truth on which there can be no different points of view that are valid. That is, in fact, my main point here.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.02 21:06:00 -
[40]
Well I can and will accept the fact that the faithful followers of the Amarr faith cannot accept my veiws at this time. From my beliefs it changes nothing. I cannot make statment of any true validity about the doctorine or reaction of the Amarr faith. I have not took it upon myself to study said faith. Regardless, it is an unimportant detail for the fact I am not criticizing said faith and I believe that they have the choice. If you are correct in saying that my veiws will be looked upon unkindly due to that fact then that is unfortunate. I hold no hatred towards such hosility and wish you peace and contentment in your faiths.
--These views are not representative or indicative of any official policy or statement of any organizations I am party to.-- |
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Marie Trudeau
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Posted - 2005.11.02 21:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kaeleron
Well I can and will accept the fact that the faithful followers of the Amarr faith cannot accept my veiws at this time.
Very well. That is clear and to the point. Thank you for clarifying.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.02 21:34:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Marie Trudeau
Originally by: Kaeleron
Well I can and will accept the fact that the faithful followers of the Amarr faith cannot accept my veiws at this time.
Very well. That is clear and to the point. Thank you for clarifying.
It is indeed quite clear. It will also be inherently obvious that the same respect be given by those following the Amarr faith towards my ideals. I do truly hope though that such a conflict will not be an issue.
--These views are not representative or indicative of any official policy or statement of any organizations I am party to.-- |
Marie Trudeau
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Posted - 2005.11.02 22:12:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Kaeleron
It will also be inherently obvious that the same respect be given by those following the Amarr faith towards my ideals.
Respect in what sense?
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I do truly hope though that such a conflict will not be an issue.
That cannot be judged, I think.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.02 22:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Kaeleron on 02/11/2005 22:30:28
My statements could be no more clearer than they are.
--These views are not representative or indicative of any official policy or statement of any organizations I am party to.-- |
Marie Trudeau
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Posted - 2005.11.02 22:38:00 -
[45]
Very well, then.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.02 23:10:00 -
[46]
Indeed it has been a most enjoyable discussion. A pleasure speaking with you as always.
--These views are not representative or indicative of any official policy or statement of any organizations I am party to.-- |
Aphoxema G
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Posted - 2005.11.03 01:31:00 -
[47]
And still, the stones fall.
It's Getting Close to That Hour... |
Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.03 23:10:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Kaeleron on 03/11/2005 23:10:32
That is true Aphoxema. But after the stones fall they can be better placed.
--These views are not representative or indicative of any official policy or statement of any organizations I am party to.-- |
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