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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
60
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Evening,
CCP Soundwave - GÇ£WeGÇÖre going to be tinkering around with minerals. Personally IGÇÖd like to see some changes to ice, for example. ThereGÇÖs a lot of interesting opportunities there. I think ice is very underplayed as a very tactical resource. Like it should essentially be the oil of Eve Online... It would be good if it was something that people thought about instead of something you get from endless mining barges in Empire that may or may not be piloted by people.GÇ¥
Source : http://nosygamer.blogspot.se/2013/04/ccp-soundwave-and-ccp-solomon-on-twitch.html
TL;DR : Suggesting Ice should be like Oil is an unwieldy comparison and mostly pointless when you arn't going to follow through with it.
I am going to repeatedly cite wikipedia in this thread. If you don't like it, leave now.
Just in case you didn't know Soundwave, Oil IRL is not infinite.
Oil : - Located in deposits varying in size/value that vary according to geological processes.
- Distributed (according to geological processes) in a variety of places around the world. Source
- New deposits have to be discovered and then exploited.
- Widely used (Source).
- Essential for international shipping of people, goods and resources. (Importantly food.)
- Deposits are finite.
Ice : - Located in uniform deposits varying in size/value depending on extraction risk.
- Distributed according to where ice was pre-patch - in set locations.
- New deposits respawn in the same systems.
- Used for capitals, POS fuel and jump bridges.
- Non-essential for international shipping of people, goods and resources (Eve before capital jump drives)
- Deposits are infinite (respawn every four hours).
I do not particularly disagree with the current iteration in Odyssey. It's the usual CCP blunder but that's not news.
But I thought it important to point out that the players who have taken up the quote above and now ingame are saying "Ice is becoming the oil of Eve." are incorrect and that it is interesting to watch a Dev make a statement and then have that statement not followed through on at all while the player base thinks it has.
To make the comparison between the two; if the new Ice in Odyssey has its properties given to Oil IRL, that oil would: 1. Be found in deposits that are more valuable the harder it is to extract i.e. Oil under the Arctic would be worth 10x oil in Texas. (There are variations in value IRL but extraction risk != value). 2. The deposits would be found in a set few locations that are arbitrary. 3. Those deposits would be depleted and renewed on a regular basis in the same location. 4. It would be used primarily by the military and no-one else. 5. It would have no bearing on international shipping, plastic products, agriculture or people transportation. 6. A single well could extract forever in one location - the oil would deplete and then reappear.
Also : The point could be made that Oil IRL isn't "essential" to shipping as in sailing ships certainly made some effort towards it in the pre-industrial era. The main differences here are that oil moves ships that move food. I'd be interested to see if a galleon could viably refrigerate produce for a trans-Atlantic trip.
That's it. Flame/troll away. |
PeerGuardian
State Protectorate Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
What an incredibly boring post. |
Ariena Darine
Unified Combatants Pwnasaurus.
0
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think you shouldn't have wasted 30 minutes of your time overanalysing what Soundwave said. Oil is only an example of a resource that keeps the economy driven, and if you're going to spend time attacking every single comparison to IRL, you truly have a sad life. |
Khamelean
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
426
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
We make use of oil as though it is infinite, so for all practical purposes today...it is. |
floating in space
University of Caille Gallente Federation
73
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote: Also : The point could be made that Oil IRL isn't "essential" to shipping as in sailing ships certainly made some effort towards it in the pre-industrial era. The main differences here are that oil moves ships that move food. I'd be interested to see if a galleon could viably refrigerate produce for a trans-Atlantic trip.
Interesting, let's remove warp drives from ships and replace them with solar sails for environmental purposes in Odyssey 1.1 |
Kuga
Nex Angelus.
6
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
While the oil analogy was possibly not the best piece of contemporary literature I have seen lately, I think you missed the point entirely :P |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9829
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think he was making an analogy to oil's geo-political & economic importance, rather than the specific mechanics of extraction.
1 Kings 12:11
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ACE McFACE
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve
1330
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hmm, lets compare drilling for oil on one planet to using magic space laser tractor beams across a whole galaxy to get ice.
Ice for sweet sweet quafe. You should be notified if someone quotes your post so you can continue the argument! |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
151
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:It would be good if it was something that people thought about instead of something you get from endless mining barges in Empire that may or may not be piloted by people
And they allowed IsBox into the game, too. Which makes that statement even more hypocritical.
So if CCP is concerned about botters and multiboxers camping an icefield, wouldn't it be common sense to nip that in the bud? It already was a chore to mine ice as it was, and players resorted to having 20 or so accounts to mine it.
Cause + Effect.
The PLEX leveling scheme might help, but as long as IsBox is out there, this issue will keep popping up. There's other resource schemes out there, and a basic one is cheap resources but plenty of them. That might tie in well with the freighter changes as well. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Ned Black
Driders
63
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
They should make ICE belts as random as a regular Grav site.
They should make SOV structures drink fuel like a Swede drinks beer... things would become interresting real fast if that ever happened in conjunction to making ice belts random.
Suddenly exploration would not only something to do on the side to make ISK... exploration would become crucial to keep everything running. A monthly fee is not that hard on a big alliance... having not only towers but sov structures schlurping fuel and having a hard time finding the fuel would really stir things up... and having a war for fuel seems like it could be a bit fun actually. |
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3500
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Posted - 2013.06.04 08:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Khamelean wrote:We make use of oil as though it is infinite, so for all practical purposes today...it is.
Also, long term, we can and are finding replacements for Oil and ways to reduce consumption where replacements haven't been found (compare the fuel used per ton of shipping Freight 10 years ago to today for an example).
We cannot do the same for Ice products in EVE. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3500
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote: To make the comparison between the two; if the new Ice in Odyssey has its properties given to Oil IRL, that oil would: 1. Be found in deposits that are more valuable the harder it is to extract i.e. Oil under the Arctic would be worth 10x oil in Texas. (There are variations in value IRL but extraction risk != value). 2. The deposits would be found in a set few locations that are arbitrary. 3. Those deposits would be depleted and renewed on a regular basis in the same location. 4. It would be used primarily by the military and no-one else. 5. It would have no bearing on international shipping, plastic products, agriculture or people transportation. 6. A single well could extract forever in one location - the oil would deplete and then reappear.
1. IRL Cheap/Easy Oil sources are used up first, and the price rises until Expensive/Hard sources are profitable. In EVE, the belts of Ice types currently only found in Nullsec have all been used up, leaving only the Risky sources in the hinterlands intact. Who ever said there were never, in the history of the EVE Universe, Krystallos belts in what now is HS?
2. Check. Most places in the world do not have Oil deposits. Something that amounts to blind luck resulted in mass death happening in conditions ripe for producing oil, then the right geologic conditions had to occur to actually produce that oil.
3. You don't see all of the Ice/Ore belt at once. Space is big. Jita's Ice Belts were finally permanently depleted some years ago. This expansion is just showing that the belts are becoming more sparse due to overharvesting.
4. In EVE, Ice is used by Industry, and Material Transport (how do you think high ends get to Jita?) as well as "the military" (Supers/Caps). In RL, it's primary consumers are Industry and material transport, as well as the military.
5. See 4. Every T2 item you have is made of Ice products (moon goo extraction is insert Ice+PI receive Moon Goo at a limited number of terminals), every T1 item you have has required ice products to move the high ends from 0.0 to HS. Also, Jump Bridges use Ice products.
6. See 3. You're confusing game mechanical abstraction with the answer to a lore question. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Amitious Turkey
The Red Circle Inc.
114
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ariena Darine wrote:I think you shouldn't have wasted 30 minutes of your time overanalysing what Soundwave said. Oil is only an example of a resource that keeps the economy driven, and if you're going to spend time attacking every single comparison to IRL, you truly have a sad life.
QFT.
O_o I like to lick things.
Haunting the forums since 03. |
Feer Truelight
130
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Came in to read about a useless dissection of a punchline which was said to visually support the idea behind the thought. Left satisfied. That awkward moment when I'm salvaging a Minmatar wreck and after 10 minutes the player starts shooting at me.
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Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
60
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Variety of good points in here.
Like the geo-political idea, but it's still missed the mark somewhat. Making something rarer doesn't really promote political impetus. A variety of the ice miners I know are simply "Off to null sec", and various others are unsubbing.
Edit:
#1 Ariena Darine wrote:I think you shouldn't have wasted 30 minutes of your time overanalysing what Soundwave said. Oil is only an example of a resource that keeps the economy driven, and if you're going to spend time attacking every single comparison to IRL, you truly have a sad life.
"Every single comparison" - I've been thinking about one. This one. Ice/Oil. I don't see any others. Let alone "Every single comparison".
RubyPorto wrote:
7. Speaking of abstraction, when's the last time your Pod Pilot ate or took a dump? WIS indeed.
And a variety of good points in here. T2 I had not considered. Which is quite short-sighted considering I both mine moons and produce T2
Ned Black wrote:They should make ICE belts as random as a regular Grav site.
They should make SOV structures drink fuel like a Swede drinks beer... things would become interresting real fast if that ever happened in conjunction to making ice belts random.
Suddenly exploration would not only something to do on the side to make ISK... exploration would become crucial to keep everything running. A monthly fee is not that hard on a big alliance... having not only towers but sov structures schlurping fuel and having a hard time finding the fuel would really stir things up... and having a war for fuel seems like it could be a bit fun actually.
This is a lot more like "Oil" would be - a necessary resource that is difficult to acquire. Not a "less common" static version which is what today's patch is doing.
Khamelean wrote:We make use of oil as though it is infinite, so for all practical purposes today...it is.
And I'm not so sure about this. Certainly "Infinite" in regards to our useage IRL, but it certainly isn't all drilled from set locations which deplete and then reappear. |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
60
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sigh double post. |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2526
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
This is a pretty great thread. |
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Josebi
Orange Equity Investors Insane Asylum
2
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
EVE is life.
Trying to compare ice to something in "real life" would be a circular argument since the only comparison to ice in "real life" would be ice in EVE, but why would you compare EVE ice to EVE ice? |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
60
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:This is a pretty great thread.
Any thoughts? Was your idea never acted upon, or has it been?
Care to enlighten this dull mind of mine? |
Marzsy vox
Requiem Liberators Moral Contradiction
0
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
PeerGuardian wrote:What an incredibly boring post.
I know right it felt like watching a game of cricket.
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J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
795
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Wait till the men in black let a cold fusion machine slip by their net. then you'll see how much oil is worth! This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
393
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Ned Black wrote:They should make ICE belts as random as a regular Grav site.
They should make SOV structures drink fuel like a Swede drinks beer... things would become interresting real fast if that ever happened in conjunction to making ice belts random.
Suddenly exploration would not only something to do on the side to make ISK... exploration would become crucial to keep everything running. A monthly fee is not that hard on a big alliance... having not only towers but sov structures schlurping fuel and having a hard time finding the fuel would really stir things up... and having a war for fuel seems like it could be a bit fun actually. This is a lot more like "Oil" would be - a necessary resource that is difficult to acquire. Not a "less common" static version which is what today's patch is doing. I'm pretty sure IRL oil is static! It doesn't magically move to a new area of the planet because we used up that deposit. Static resources mean there is a reason to fight or be in specific systems, if ice was to spawn in any system in EVE no one would want the ice systems as they're no more valuable than regular systems. This also would mean you would never know where to attack your enemies ice mining operations if you wanted to harm them economically. (assuming people in NullSec actually do go and mine it) Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Ramona McCandless
Standards and Practices Petition Blizzard
59
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote: If you don't like it, leave now.
Don't give me orders, baldy.
Imiarr Timshae wrote:That's it. Flame/troll away.
What about bounties? "You designed these rules to trick me and it's not fair! I don't have anything left and might as well quit now..."-á-á-Authorized Pixel Distributor
Tell The Others |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
925
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
As long as there is organic life on earth, oil is infinite.
(the rate of regeneration is just far lower than the rate at which we exploit it). |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
60
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote: What about bounties?
I only gave you orders because I thought you liked it
Bounties are fine too. |
Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
262
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Posted - 2013.06.04 09:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Only thing worse than ice mining is reading threads about ice mining. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9838
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Posted - 2013.06.04 10:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:This is a pretty great thread. Any thoughts? Was your idea never acted upon, or has it been? Care to enlighten this dull mind of mine?
Uh... you know that Ice mining is changing a lot today, right?
1 Kings 12:11
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Ramona McCandless
Standards and Practices Petition Blizzard
60
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Posted - 2013.06.04 10:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote: What about bounties?
I only gave you orders because I thought you liked it Bounties are fine too.
Im starting to like you, pretty xx
"You designed these rules to trick me and it's not fair! I don't have anything left and might as well quit now..."-á-á-Authorized Pixel Distributor
Tell The Others |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9839
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Posted - 2013.06.04 10:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:
They should make SOV structures drink fuel like a Swede drinks beer...
I'm not sure how your proposed mechanic would work if our sov structures are going to get the ferry to Copenhagen and then throw up in the street every weekend.
1 Kings 12:11
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
2526
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Posted - 2013.06.04 10:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Ned Black wrote:
They should make SOV structures drink fuel like a Swede drinks beer...
I'm not sure how your proposed mechanic would work if our sov structures are going to get the ferry to Copenhagen and then throw up in the street every weekend.
I wish I could like posts more than once. |
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