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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.11.07 15:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 07/11/2005 15:57:38
As Eve carries on and continues to grow, there are lots of new players coming in. Evidently the fact that this game is purely time based, and not level based as many games, is a bonus to the game.
However, as time wears on, the difference between new and old players will become more, and more, and more pronounced.
Having had a few friends start off recently, I wonder how they are ever going to be able to compete in a universe with many 20-30mil SP pilots already.
In another year, or two, this difference will be even more pronounced.
And on top of that, the server is becoming increasingly strained, and the game world is becoming increasingly crowded.
What options are open? I can only see one in the short term, and that is to open another server. But I really can't see a fix for Eve being a time based game rather than a playtime based one, and I can see nothing but problems in the future.
About time this made a dev blog I guess, rather than repeated discussions on the forum :P
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Aelius
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Posted - 2005.11.07 15:57:00 -
[2]
OH NO NOT AGAIN
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.11.07 15:58:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/11/2005 16:01:02
This has been beaten to death, and the conclusion every time has been that new players in many ways have an advantage over veteran players.
There's a limit to the amount of skill points you can fit on one ship. Once you hit a certain point, you are maxed out, and the ship can no longer benefit. This prevents anyone from becoming "uber"--specialization saves the day.
Second of all, intelligence is far more important than skill points. A single tracking disruptor will make that 20 million skill point gankageddon useless, and a noob in a frigate will be able to kill it.
Third, I started less than a year ago, and I now have nearly 10 billion in assets. Did I get lucky in the BPO lottery? No. Was it because of skill points? Obviously not. Do I mine 24/7 or grind level 4 missions with uber faction lewtz? No! Did I ever feel like I was screwed as a newbie? NO!
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Proud member of the [23].
Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
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ZelRox
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Posted - 2005.11.07 15:59:00 -
[4]
If im not mistaken, lots of 3-4 mil players are starting to make names for themselves. No difference, just skill :)
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I wanna tuc tuc .. |
Wizzkidy
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:00:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 07/11/2005 16:05:38
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 07/11/2005 16:04:20
Oh please..
 Quote:
Having had a few friends start off recently, I wonder how they are ever going to be able to compete in a universe with many 20-30mil SP pilots already.
They don't need too compete a 4Mil char can take down a 39mil char without a problem or with some help. SP aint everything mate.
W.
EDIT - Read my Post now!  - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=242096&page=4#109
______________________________
Aww my sig was too large :( :( |
Burlock Ironfist
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:01:00 -
[6]
Quote:
specialization saves the day
And thats what i always advise new members to the game decide what you wanna do and just do it. You can have just as much fun in a frig as you can in a BS when it come to PvP.
The reason this isnt a dev topic is because there is nothing to develop with it. Everythings fine - move along - nothing to see here
Registered Carebear and Mining Barge Enthusiast. |
Siren Shiva
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:02:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Siren Shiva on 07/11/2005 16:02:28
I'm a new player, and I feel I can compete very well. I dont need artificial changes and slowdowns to the more veteran playerbase to feel I am making progress.
In all games, there are players who want to have everything, instantly, and their worst fear is to lose to a more experienced player. I am quite happy to see that these players are being discouraged from crowding Eve. Being 'powerlevelled' and handed a small fortune of money at start doesnt work to make them powerful here.
I love Eve.
Inappropriate signature graphic removed -Zhuge
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 07/11/2005 15:57:00
As Eve carries on and continues to grow, there are lots of new players coming in. Evidently the fact that this game is purely time based, and not level based as many games, is a bonus to the game.
However, as time wears on, the difference between new and old players will become more, and more, and more pronounced.
Having had a few friends start off recently, I wonder how they are ever going to be able to compete in a universe with many 20-30mil SP pilots already.
In another year, or two, this difference will be even more pronounced.
And on top of that, the server is becoming increasingly strained, and the game world is becoming increasingly crowded.
What options are open? I can only see one in the short term, and that is to open another server. But I really can't see a fix for Eve being a time based game rather than a playtime based one, and I can see nothing but problems in the future.
Nah, make it like a full car-park - no new players in until an old one leaves. :P
Seriously though, what do you mean by compete?
Characters with lots of SP's are good at many things, but there is effectively a level system at play too.
You can only train skills to level 5, and only the skills which apply to what you are doing actually count when comparing players.
If I go in to a fight in a tech1 frigate (and it does happen), I am basically 'wasting' over 7mil SP's of piloting skills for other ships.
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Slink Grinsdikild
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:03:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Aelius
OH NO NOT AGAIN
*starts tapdancing*
Hello Ma Baby, Hello Ma Darlin' Hello my ragtime Gaaaaaaaaal. . .
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:07:00 -
[10]
What would work is to stop deepening out skilltrees and isntead introducing new ones.
that would limit a full specialisation to a max of about 15m skillpoints. Meaning any new char can be maxed out in one in about a year.
However, that requires new features that would open up new professions with the new skilltrees.
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HUGO DRAX
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:09:00 -
[11]
Did you know that there is a hardlimit on skills. once you hit gunnery V you cant go higher and neither can a vet. Once you hit Medium turrets V, Cruiser V guess what your at the same level of cruiser/guns as a 2 year old player.
You are confusing skillpoints with Levels. high skill points just means that player has skills spread around different types of faction ships (ie caldari etc..)
I only fly Gallente and only do hybrids and train to be the best in what gallente guns and gallente style EW can do.
And yes a new player can take down an older higher skillpoints player in a bigger better ship on a 1v1 if you put together the right package and plan properly.
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Ifni
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:11:00 -
[12]
There are 5000 solar systems in EVE, with say 20,000 players (makes for easy sums ) That means there should be an average of 4 people per system. Simply because they choose to live in the main 10 systems doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, make the game "crowded"
As for skillpoints you are obviously forgetting that to try any field you usually need only level 4 in a particular skill. The emphasis in EVE is in specialisation, but to get a feel for an area its very easy to train up skills to level 4 and have a go. To becom good at an area or to use the advanced options you generally need level5 (eg tech 2 shield/armour hardeners) Now that means with a skill giving a 5% bonus to damage increase per skill level, you are only 5% less damaging than someone who has trained it to level 5 and invested many months more time.
So yes, the game does provide a bit more for the older player, but you must remember that 30 million skill points != a good character.
Oveur > CUZ IM EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEME!!!! |
Rawne Karrde
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Posted - 2005.11.07 16:22:00 -
[13]
Seriously. as a veteran player form may 2003, let me enlighten you about some facts.
in the last 6 months months, i've been able to train 5 skills. mechanical engineering lvl 5, electronics engineering lvl 5, heavy drone operation lvl 5, gal frigate lvl 5, and gal bs lvl 5 (still not complete either).
In that same time, i've been training a specialized combat character that can now kick the crap out of my main. alt has like 6 mil sp's and my main has over 30 mil.
my main started in eve as a jack of all trades but that has been impossible to keep up int he last year. specialization is where its at and has been pointed out, there are only a certain amount of sp's in a given area. My main might have 30 mil sp's but how does my 6.2 mil in science, 3.4 mil in industry and 1.2 mil in trade directly affect what damage i would do in combat?
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Steppa
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:02:00 -
[14]
"Can new players ever compete?"
In a word, yes. It just takes the kind of time and patience that has thankfully weeded out most of the idiots in our gaming community.
A few months ago, our corp fell prey to a POS attack...from within, not without. It was offlined by a corpmate and we took a substatial loss as a group of Eve players, most of us veterans since retail. We belong to a much greater gaming community (biggest in existence, if I'm not mistaken) spread across many, many portals and games. Through our own community we sounded the call for help. This took shape as a ton of SG members from Planetside, WoW, WWII Online, and others signed up for their 14-day trial. We had skill-training and character creation schemes ready to go and I'm happy to say that a good many of them stuck with it past the trial. In the subsequent months, these players became every bit the stodgy old-timers we were when they joined.
We were just running a level IV mission with all battleships when one of those "new" members mentioned how nice it was to field a force of such power now that all the newer guys are into their battleships.
The moral of the story is, new members should be encouraged to join corps right away. They get support that way you will simply not find anywhere else. I myself would have spur-of-the-moment Eve quizes with our new members, giving away 5 million per pop for correct answers. Show me a way to get 5 million isk as a newbie so easily.
After only a couple of months, new players can be very capable Eve-'rs with the proper help and support of a well-organized and cohesive corp. Using the skill scheme and character creation we set up, most of these guys were into blackbirds VERY quickly and thus useful even in PVP far more quickly than a loner would be.
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Megadon
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aelius
OH NO NOT AGAIN
Apparently
Who are these ppl that continue to post these threads? If there were only maybe 500 ppl that played this game, maybe they would bring up a valid point, but it just doesn't apply in a universe as big and as varied as Eve.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:22:00 -
[16]
Is it the first monday of the month already?
Remind me about The Maze.
I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message. |
Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:25:00 -
[17]
Please read the 100+ topics about this before starting another thread of this nature.
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
Mercade
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:26:00 -
[18]
It's very simple.
Fred has been around for 2 years.
Bob has been around for 2 months.
Fred can fly frigates and cruisers in all 4 races at 80% of their max effectiveness and 2 racial battleships at 50% of their max effectiveness.
Bob can choose to fly all frigates and cruisers at 10% of their max effectiveness or he can choose to fly 1 race's frigates to 80% of their effectiveness and their cruisers to 50%.
Add another 2 months and Bob can be just as good in his cruiser as Fred. Add another and so on and he can catch up.
10 million SP in spaceship command does not defeat 2.5 million SP in spaceship command if the person with 10 is split amongst 4 races.
In fact very often veteran players have masses of unused skills due to lack of specialization and many middle age or younger players can exceed them in certain roles.
It is no different from any other game, there are the first to level 50 and then there is everyone else. Except in this game levels don't matter. Skill points are an illusionary achievement.
Hell financially having to afford a 15mil ISK clone is not benefitial in pvp.
But if a new player refuses to specialize then yes they will never exceed a broad skilled veteran. The choice is yours? Do you want an advanced 18wheeler license when you race motorcycles? It's nice to be able to both but they don't help eachother.
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Abdalion
But but but....Bald is beautiful!
It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
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oidalia
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:36:00 -
[19]
weird that in such discussions i always hear that a new player can catch up or be as effective as an oldtimer through specialization but what the hell stopped an oldtimer from doing the same?
Lets be honest about this, new players have major disadvantages and its A LOT harder than in any other MMPORG to catch up to older players.
This has nothing to do with personal player skill (in average older and newer ones will have the same) so in the end it comes down to skillpoints and money and there old players have such an advantage that its a major problem for Eve's future.
Sure u can ignore or denie it but the problem will still be there and Eve will start to suffer from it in 1-2 years when the gaps became so huge that nobody will be so insane to start a game where he needs to train skills 2 years just to have a decent character while there are plenty of other MMPORGs out there who can give u immediatly fun (and waiting one year to be a decent pilot is no fun).
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Professor McFly
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:42:00 -
[20]
New players can compete with and beat old players in almost every conceivable way, except maybe T2 production. New players however are not and SHOULD NOT be on level ground with old players until they reach the same skillpoint level in the respective categories.
This is only a problem to people who desire instant gratification and "power levelling" to the endgame without wanting to experience the start or midgame, and who mostly end up playing WoW anyway.
Have fun farming MC.
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:47:00 -
[21]
oidalia, if remember correctly, Oveur said that only ~25% of the player base remain from release.
Also, what is "new" ? 3 months, 6 months, a year ? What is a vet ? in since release, >2 years or >1 year ?
A year from now people joining today will be saying "Oh no, not again" themselves when someone starts a thread like this in November 2006.
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
Cmdr Sy
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:55:00 -
[22]
EVE emulates real life.
Should a guy joining a company in his 20s claim the same experience, status and wealth as a guy in his 40s? Definitely not.
There is nothing unfair about entering the game later, you just have to make your own way. And for those with the talent, aptitude and motivation to carve out a niche, there is no reason why they cannot catch up. Someone with five years in systems engineering beats someone with 30 years in payroll for coolness.
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Idara
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Posted - 2005.11.07 18:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Aelius
OH NO NOT AGAIN
QUOTED FOR THE ******* TRUTH++++++++++
--------------------------------------------------------
Lance Corporal
BSC Military
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linux4ever
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Posted - 2005.11.07 18:13:00 -
[24]
speaking as a vet (31 mio sp)
i had 2 chars 1 that were skilled in many different things and one that is skiled only in pvp guess wich is better
and now i have reached the optimum for amarr ships (well ok except large specs 5 i dont see the sense in that just to do 2% more dmg)
and now im asking myself if i should train another bs to 5 many ppl are right when they say there is only fixed amout of sps that u use at the same time to get this skills is far more easier then beeing an alrounder so all in all if u specialise u even can beat me but not in amarr :) then the rl skill counts ^^
so have fun new guys and keep ur head up one time u will make it
bye
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Leopold II
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Posted - 2005.11.07 18:28:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Leopold II on 07/11/2005 18:30:28
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 07/11/2005 15:57:38
As Eve carries on and continues to grow, there are lots of new players coming in. Evidently the fact that this game is purely time based, and not level based as many games, is a bonus to the game.
However, as time wears on, the difference between new and old players will become more, and more, and more pronounced.
Having had a few friends start off recently, I wonder how they are ever going to be able to compete in a universe with many 20-30mil SP pilots already.
In another year, or two, this difference will be even more pronounced.
And on top of that, the server is becoming increasingly strained, and the game world is becoming increasingly crowded.
What options are open? I can only see one in the short term, and that is to open another server. But I really can't see a fix for Eve being a time based game rather than a playtime based one, and I can see nothing but problems in the future.
About time this made a dev blog I guess, rather than repeated discussions on the forum :P
new player in my corp: washy2
I think he has a lot of fun, and has gotten more kills than quite a few of you 20-30m sp characters. Guess those new players are not as doomed as you might think.
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.11.07 19:10:00 -
[26]
The amount of skillpoints you have is definitely important for combat, and whether you win or lose.
Fact: 32mil is way more than 10mil.
Fact: 10mil is way more than 2mil.
Fact: 2mil is way more than 100k.
Solution: Don't let anyone train more than 100k.
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Dr Cball
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Posted - 2005.11.07 19:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Aelius
OH NO NOT AGAIN
I hate to agree with you, but geeez, how many times can they beat this dead horse?
ohhhhhnoooessssss, I cant enter the job market and be making the same as the people that joined it 15 years ago!!!!
get over it, play for your enjoyment, not to compete against those that been playing far longer then you have, or go back to playing quake.
(i still enjoy the heck outa eve, even if the changes peeese me off)   
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.11.07 19:17:00 -
[28]
Wow, is it the trailing end of another hour? Time does go by, why I remember the last time a thread like this showed up on these forums, many minutes ago....
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Dr Cball
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Posted - 2005.11.07 19:21:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Megadon
Originally by: Aelius
OH NO NOT AGAIN
Apparently
Who are these ppl that continue to post these threads? If there were only maybe 500 ppl that played this game, maybe they would bring up a valid point, but it just doesn't apply in a universe as big and as varied as Eve.
reposting of old topics like this could be resolved with a simple search function on the forums...ohwait, that is an old topic too...
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Garik Daemon
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Posted - 2005.11.07 20:21:00 -
[30]
This is beating a dead horse, been discussed lots of times already. Now it only serves as flamebait, more whining and non-constructive remarks.
*click*
Garik
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