I've been watching some videos from the fanfest. some of the stuff was terri-bad.

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It has been my experience that there are three driving factors to do anything in eve.

1. to make isk.

2. to socially interact with other players.

3. to do it because you enjoy it immensely. ( this often requires doing a lot of # 1. to afford it )

---

Now consider the mini-game approach that seems to be so attractive to CCP developers.


1) Mini-games do not facilitate the making of isk. People don't want to have to work harder to get it. ever.

2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.

3) Mini-games for enjoyment? I suppose it's possible. Folks that just want to enjoy a mini-game typically don't want someone else to be able to trample thru their mini-game-garden, and this is eve... plus eve isn't free and mini-games kinda are free.

---

So stop the mini-games. Eve is a game, and it's o.k. on it's own.

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Everything you change / add within eve-online should be balanced against these basic tenets.

* Can you make decent isk for the effort put in?
* Can you socially interact with others while doing it?
* Does a reasonable percentage of the player base find the activity enjoyable?

Ideally, 2 out of 3 would make a great addition to eve.

---

In 10+ years, almost everyone that sticks with eve, does so because of the social interaction.

Mini-games certainly wont' help and in some cases they will reduce interaction.

( -- to be clear, a poker table would be a good mini-game, so long as it doesn't produce tritanium from thin air, and so long as you're playing against other players, not the computer -- )

my 2 isk.

Ris Dnalor

2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.

The discussion of the mini game and optimal strategy has promoted social interaction. I've crossed paths and made contacts with people precisely because I understood the mechanics better, and the exchange of information created a common ground for us in hostile space. Say what you will, but the inclusion of player skill and the fact that it distracts from dscan is forcing player interaction at gunpoint all over new eden right now

Minigames should be exterminated in any game with RPG in his name.
My character has skills, use them. I hate minigames. They're always bad, repetitives and awfully boring. In fact, i don't do exploration anymore, and will stop to mine too if it's a minigame.
They're really the plague of today games. I want the possibility to skip them with an overskilled character, even if the training takes twice the time.

I've been watching some videos from the fanfest. some of the stuff was terri-bad.

---

It has been my experience that there are three driving factors to do anything in eve.

1. to make isk.

2. to socially interact with other players.

3. to do it because you enjoy it immensely. ( this often requires doing a lot of # 1. to afford it )

---

Now consider the mini-game approach that seems to be so attractive to CCP developers.


1) Mini-games do not facilitate the making of isk. People don't want to have to work harder to get it. ever.

2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.

3) Mini-games for enjoyment? I suppose it's possible. Folks that just want to enjoy a mini-game typically don't want someone else to be able to trample thru their mini-game-garden, and this is eve... plus eve isn't free and mini-games kinda are free.

---

So stop the mini-games. Eve is a game, and it's o.k. on it's own.

---

Everything you change / add within eve-online should be balanced against these basic tenets.

* Can you make decent isk for the effort put in?
* Can you socially interact with others while doing it?
* Does a reasonable percentage of the player base find the activity enjoyable?

Ideally, 2 out of 3 would make a great addition to eve.

---

In 10+ years, almost everyone that sticks with eve, does so because of the social interaction.

Mini-games certainly wont' help and in some cases they will reduce interaction.

( -- to be clear, a poker table would be a good mini-game, so long as it doesn't produce tritanium from thin air, and so long as you're playing against other players, not the computer -- )

my 2 isk.

Ris Dnalor

How the hell is watching a module cycle worse that clicking through a short game? You think things should be pure RPG, with everything depending on your skills?

Hell, let's remove ship combat then! It's basically a minigame, and besides, eve shouldn't be about player skill but character skill! The ships should approach each other and then the player with lower skills should explode. None of that dirty casual **** for my Eve!

Minigames are a nice solution to provide content to soloers and casuals. Of course, that implies that minigames must be soloable and allow casual gameplay, two things in which the hacking minigame sucks miserably.

But then, this is CCP and they're not known for "getting it". CCP's concept of a lollipop is something with a 2 foot thorny stick that will bend randomly and must be eaten with an arm tied to your back, before a grizzly bear looses itself from a rottten string... and then the flavor of the lollipop is Brussels sprouts.

How the hell is watching a module cycle worse that clicking through a short game? You think things should be pure RPG, with everything depending on your skills?

Hell, let's remove ship combat then! It's basically a minigame, and besides, eve shouldn't be about player skill but character skill! The ships should approach each other and then the player with lower skills should explode. None of that dirty casual **** for my Eve!

I am an immortal capsuleer. The universe trembles before me.

I play Jenga for my lootz!

And that's good because...?

The discussion of the mini game and optimal strategy has promoted social interaction. I've crossed paths and made contacts with people precisely because I understood the mechanics better, and the exchange of information created a common ground for us in hostile space. Say what you will, but the inclusion of player skill and the fact that it distracts from dscan is forcing player interaction at gunpoint all over new eden right now

Whack-a-mole would be a more apt comparison.

More chance of combat. More chance for socializing. The distraction and time investment ups the risk of a human encounter, whether at gunpoint or not.

While technically true ( the underliney-bits ) it's just another example of new-features added to eve that people help each other learn. -- It has nothing to do with the fact that it's a mini-game.

I could argue whether or not the mini-game requires player skill, but again, that's not what I'm talking about. The fact is if I want to do something in eve, I do not want to have to play mine-craft to accomplish it.


And as far as the distraction, well, it sounds like you're arguing my point. The folks that do enjoy the mini-game, will not continue to do so, if it is as you say that "forced player interaction at gunpoint" is truly happening all over new eden right now.

They might do it for the loot, if it's good enough, but they won't do it for the enjoyment, and they won't do it for social interaction. The social interaction of which you speak is likely not happening DURING the mini-game, unless I misunderstand your definitions of "player-skill" and "distractions".

Thanks for the reply,

Ris Dnalor

Let me put it this way: In 3 years of exploration, I've never gotten attacked in an exploration site before. Last time I died was way back when I was a noob. People TRIED to gank me, but I was d-scanning every 3 seconds while I watched netflix on my second screen. This was stupid, and I readily admit it. But that was what exploration was. The risks were negligible. In many ways they're still low, but for the first time in years, I got attacked in a site just 2 hours ago. I was shitting bricks, as I had about 800 mil in cargo, and that was WITHOUT me watching netflix. My eyes were on the screen. I was dscanning, but the distraction meant I lowered my guard for just a second. Next thing I knew, I had a helios and a hound warp disrupting me.

And that's my point. Odyssey opened new doors to would-be explorers, and gives the hunters and gankers more targets. Although in this case I'm pretty sure my gankers were pissed, cause they didn't have a scram, and I did. Scrammed the helios and MWD'd out at full burn. Anyways, that simply wouldn't happen prior to Odyssey. We'd all be perfectly d-scanning every 3 seconds for the duration of our run, and effectively taking no risks. This is an improvement over the previous system in every way.

Yesterday i spent one hour exploring. Man, it is fast now. Scanned 4 systems, located 3 wormholes, 6 anomalies, 4 gravitic sites... wow. Didn't find any hackable site, though. And all in all, I got like 600,000 ISK because it was 6 anomalies (5 empty) and 4 gravitic sites (all 4 holding carp) and WH... well, i am not doing WH.

Pssst, you forgot to add "and I got the 800 million in the first 20 minutes of scanning".

Actually, not gonna lie. I got about 450 mil of the 800 mil in half an hour, and the rest over another 2-3 hours.

Because at the end of the old module cycle you got a loot container, now the loot spews out and disintegrates...

As a fairly avid explorer, I really like the new system.

My favorite part about it, though, is the whining from people who have come to believe that they were somehow entitled to the push button -> receive bacon of the old activate-module-and-wait system.

Also, this is funny:



If you're not getting much more loot than you were in pre-odyssey, you're doing something wrong.

It was the hacking mini game that got me to re-sub it's pretty difficult to over come in null and i love the challenge of it.

If they removed it back to mod cycling i'd probably un-sub again.

mini-games have their place and can be fun but CCP has got the entire concept wrong imo

a mini-game shouldn't be a replacement for a good game mechanic or even a bad one, a mini game should be a stand alone diversion for those with nothing better to do at the moment

likes having blackjack and poker in station or something to that effect

I'm actually kind of torn with this new mechanic, on one hand I think its silly and ponderous to make DSE players have to slog through a mini-game to accomplish their goals, but at the same time I like the thought of people being so involved in this poop that they fail to notice combat probes or that sudden spike in local

If the player base does not want mini games, it should not RMT and support botting in any way.

Overall I disagree with the OP for more detailed reasons which are well echoed by others in these forums.

Brainless point and click is coming to an end. Thank God.

And you really think the new exploration mini-game is not brainless?

And you really think the new exploration mini-game is not brainless?

the hacking mini game is a joke, way too hard. not enough balance. the can wins 99% of the time.

Let me put it this way: In 3 years of exploration, I've never gotten attacked in an exploration site before. Last time I died was way back when I was a noob. People TRIED to gank me, but I was d-scanning every 3 seconds while I watched netflix on my second screen. This was stupid, and I readily admit it. But that was what exploration was. The risks were negligible. In many ways they're still low, but for the first time in years, I got attacked in a site just 2 hours ago. I was shitting bricks, as I had about 800 mil in cargo, and that was WITHOUT me watching netflix. My eyes were on the screen. I was dscanning, but the distraction meant I lowered my guard for just a second. Next thing I knew, I had a helios and a hound warp disrupting me.

And that's my point. Odyssey opened new doors to would-be explorers, and gives the hunters and gankers more targets. Although in this case I'm pretty sure my gankers were pissed, cause they didn't have a scram, and I did. Scrammed the helios and MWD'd out at full burn. Anyways, that simply wouldn't happen prior to Odyssey. We'd all be perfectly d-scanning every 3 seconds for the duration of our run, and effectively taking no risks. This is an improvement over the previous system in every way.

And one more thing: Risk is part of the fun. Exploration was fun before, but it lost all sense of risk very early on. I only did it because I enjoyed the wandering nature of it. Now that I'm actively at risk and getting shot at, I'm having WAY more fun than before. Forget isk income(even if it's better than before), and focus on simple gameplay. I actually feel moderately challenged again, as I have to go into null now. Low has lost some of it's value, but null is now accessible, which balances it out. Simply having isk rain from the skies isn't fun. I want to work for it. I want to get shot at. I want to be hunted. If I'm not at risk, then PvE simply isn't enjoyable to me.

Good story. Nice one on the scram :)

I can now see your point clearly, though I can't say I agree with it. I will never enjoy playing a mini-game in eve, and while I'm not opposed to some, I fear they may overdo it, based on what I've seen from the fanfest video... If all mundane tasks become minigames, well... . Have you seen the "future" ideas for mining spray and what are your thoughts on that or the "minecraft" version of mining?

And if that happens it's bad design.

EQII the tradeskill mini-game is easy enough to not interfere with both socializing and even doing rush orders. Players will be in their guild halls, in VOIP and doing just fine.

Problem with the mini-game so far released is: EvE is a PvP game and it can happen anywhere. Such a mini-game will have to be small, and where a player can watch over his shoulder. Something like keypads. Spend too long at it, it turns it into a cannon fodder activity, and that's a waste of time and money.

In PvP, KISS principle applies. When players don't loot drops in fear of not seeing the enemy (Black Legion loot policy for example -- 2bil worth of goods can goto waste, but they're not stopping to loot it, they'll destroy it instead)...yeah...keep it simple.

1) Mini-games do not facilitate the making of isk. People don't want to have to work harder to get it. ever.

2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.

3) Mini-games for enjoyment? I suppose it's possible. Folks that just want to enjoy a mini-game typically don't want someone else to be able to trample thru their mini-game-garden, and this is eve... plus eve isn't free and mini-games kinda are free.

(...)

2.) COLLECTING RESOURCES detracts from social interaction. (...)

PI is a minigame and works fine in EVE.

Game suggests you can lose.

and you can, so game it is

You must be a miner!

1.) Minigames make it harder for bots to do it, thus they DO facilitate ISK gain, by giving players an advantage in securing the resources.

2.) COLLECTING RESOURCES detracts from social interaction. Making it entertaining makes it more fun for the time you have to do it, allowing you the resources to go have your social interaction. Or heck, teamwork mini-games. Like hacking.

3.) Minigames are a lot more enjoyable than collecting without mini-games.

So basically your whole post is pretty much the opposite of how I feel about mini-games in EVE.

(...)

Yea, I hate mini-games. Some people don't.

Some people explore or mine simply to try and make isk so they can afford to pew pew. These folks often-times already spend as much or more time "working" for their isk, as they do "spending" their isk to play eve the way they want.

The part about this exploration change, and the potentially planned changes to mining, could make the "work" even more time consuming, require folks to learn new skills, pay attention, etc.... leaving less time for their "play". At least mining as it is know, allows the freedom to discuss and share pvp loadouts, and tell stories of previous glorious encounters... But wait, let's ******* play mine-craft infucking stead.

Go after botters all you like, but don't alienate a considerable portion of your playerbase while doing it.

What's interesting is that the same applies to many other acitvities. EVE is a sandbox and so it's easy that everyone got something that floats his boat, even if it's not something CCP foresaw.

Frankly, i can't see how mining alone could be the goal to anyone. A mean to a goal, sure. But not a goal itself. And as you point out, CCP may be considering that mining is too "boring" and must be more "engaging" albeit players who ACTUALLY MINE may have found their own solution, and making mining more "engaging" with a minigame may steal the time they use to reach their goal, whatever it is.

As i said, minigames provide a golden chance to deliver content to soloers and casuals, and that's because of their instanced nature. Negating them that instanced nature renders them useless to casuals. The bloody fixation to make everyfuckingthing "better in group" negates their usefulness to soloers. So essentially CCP invented the useless minigame, and are so proud of their fartchild that may extend it to destroy other soloable/casual friendly activities.

They never get it. May be sunlight deprivation or just a cultural artifact, but they never get it. Right when they're about to take the right path, they shake the wheel and get back to the old ways...

If the player base does not want mini games, it should not RMT and support botting in any way.

Overall I disagree with the OP for more detailed reasons which are well echoed by others in these forums.

Brainless point and click is coming to an end. Thank God.

(...)
All this minigame is? It's a glorified time sink. (which for some of us doesn't equal money but is in short supply before RL obligations) And no different then waiting for a module cycle. If anything to me it's more annoying because of the many negative reasons others have given. Not the least of which is again it's advantage gankers since you're stuck looking at this boring after the first 5 times minigame instead of being aware of your surroundings with dscan or local watching. (....).

Youve lost at clicking on the screen?

How do you even load the game lol

I've lost a few 0.0 mainframes before. This is also with Hacking V, T2 Codebreaker, and a explo frig. Since the mini game is random it is quite easy to fail, if you hit a couple suppressors or regen nodes without any utilities to combat them you're screwed.

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It has been my experience that there are three driving factors to do anything in eve.

1. to make isk.

2. to socially interact with other players.

3. to do it because you enjoy it immensely. ( this often requires doing a lot of # 1. to afford it )

---

And you really think the new exploration mini-game is not brainless?

You sound bad. I almost never pop a can.

With this you have outed yourself as a 12 year old, really.

How do you figure that one, sportsfan?

Correction. 10.

That's an accusatory troll with no basis in fact. At all.

Because you are trolling too hard, badly, and obviously.

These mini-games were added for purpose. The purpose of making RMT more difficult, something which truly ruins EVE ind it's famous player-driven economy.

3) Mini-games for enjoyment? I suppose it's possible. Folks that just want to enjoy a mini-game typically don't want someone else to be able to trample thru their mini-game-garden, and this is eve... plus eve isn't free and mini-games kinda are free.

Mini-games work if designed well and fit. Adding a mini-game after-the-affect as a time sink does not.

EQII has a tradeskill mini-game that prevents bots from tradeskilling (it used to be severe enough you could die from not hitting the right key sequence). It was perfect way to time sink tradeskilling and in the manner that also promoted socialization (tradeskill stations in the guildhall, so it becomes the guild's social hub area). It demanded socialization otherwise a player would be bored to death doing 500 rush orders a night to level the guild!

In a PvP game any mini-game has to be quick because the screen and focus should never be away from being aware of your surroundings. A little hacking game (something like Deus Ex used to open locked doors [lockpicking]), anything else isn't designed for solo exploring/fighting.

[quote=Ris Dnalor]3) In a PvP game any mini-game has to be quick because the screen and focus should never be away from being aware of your surroundings. A little hacking game (something like Deus Ex used to open locked doors [lockpicking]), anything else isn't designed for solo exploring/fighting.