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Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.06.13 11:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
So assuming you are mostly shooting at BSs with all your support skills at 5 and you are riding a ship without any bonus to explosion speed or radius. Moreover lets assume you can fit one TP and one or two rigs to help you.
Will you benefit more from Rigor or from Flares? Remember this is against BS rats, not smaller.
Would the answer be different depending on whether you shoot furies or CN missiles?
Thank you. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University
Ivy League
344
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 12:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
against BS sized rats rigors and flares will do barely anything for cruise missiles. The reason people fit rigors and flares on large missile hulls is because they suck at dealing with anything smaller than a BC |
Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 12:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:against BS sized rats rigors and flares will do barely anything for cruise missiles. The reason people fit rigors and flares on large missile hulls is because they suck at dealing with anything smaller than a BC
I thought the same but was surprised negatively. With one painter on CN do more damage than Furies to the rogue drone BS at painter falloff with the Furies only gaining the upper hand at painter optimal. Still both seem to get considerable reduction in dps when the drone BSs use their afterburners.
I guess mine is a more unique issue than that faced by people doing lvl4s and sanctums etc so I ll just have to playtest extensively and let you know... |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10077
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 12:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:against BS sized rats rigors and flares will do barely anything for cruise missiles. The reason people fit rigors and flares on large missile hulls is because they suck at dealing with anything smaller than a BC
This is true as long as the BS are stationary or close to stationary, and not small to start with (eg: Angels)
As soon as they start moving, you're going to want some rigors.
1 Kings 12:11
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
817
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 13:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Using 3 T1 riggors with cruise on several of my BS cruise ships works like a charm, on top added 1 TP and even elite frigs pop like popcorn.
If you guys are less lazy then I am just put 2 T2 riggors and 1 Flare, add 1 Tp PWNAGE FTW. Cruise missiles became really interesting now, finally.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
consuasor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 18:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rigors, always rigors.
Some split weapon ships can put other rigs into good use (typhoon, rattlesnake). They are still best done with mainly rigors. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
2854
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 18:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Still running 3xRigors and pwning some *******. |
stoicfaux
2820
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 22:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
2xRigor, 1xFlare according my spreadsheets. Even on hulls with an explosion radius/velocity bonus.
Except on a Golem where you can use 2x missile speed rigs and use the bonused TPs to pick up the slack. No volley counting out to 80+km.... it's pretty keen.
|
Rain6636
Team Evil
534
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 17:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm revisiting my RR rattlesnake setup right now, actually. aside from a couple balstabs I don't give any extra consideration to cruises. they've got a huge deficiency in terms of smaller targets, but it's not something I would spend a rig on. ...in the case of a rattlesnake.
on this ship, the DPS from cruises is under 400 with two balstabs, which is too low to worry about, imo. The rattlesnake has other options for range, and I prefer sentries--instant and free, out to 84km. as a single ship, you can drop the energy transfer for another drone link augmentor and get your sentries to reach out to 108km.
I would also go with torps over cruises, but the CPU is lighter with the cruises. the CPU penalty for relevant launcher rigs is too steep, not just for the CPU cost but the utility you lose in your mids. even with just four launchers.
just another take on cruises. it doesn't have to be the only source of DPS.
Thanatoses for sale | is this what a Nyx sitter looks like? |
Rain6636
Team Evil
565
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 13:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
or you could be uber l337 like me. cruise missiles ftw?
Thanatoses for sale | is this what a Nyx sitter looks like? | Guess a number, win a Thanatos |
stoicfaux
2823
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 17:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rain6636 wrote:
//holy **** I just finished comparing cruises with torps on the rattlesnake--when did cruises become so ******* competitive.
With Odyssey. CCP wants cruise missiles to be useful in PvP so they buffed the hell out of them. (~30% DPS increase and a speed increase, offset with a minor penalty to sig radius and range.) Which has had the side effect of obsoleting torps in most PvE scenarios. Which is no one is taking Torp Golems seriously anymore.
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Rain6636
Team Evil
565
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 21:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
and I'm not happy about it, even though I always enjoyed reaching out and touching someone with cruises. I understand CCP would like to see pvp cruises happen, but think cruises needed to be faster, not stronger.
they're a long way from competing with insta
cruises' max velocity is for making the calculations easier (i'm guessing), and I think it's a shame. terminal velocity in space, as if they're meeting air friction--dumb.
as for the other weapon types being insta: lasers are light waves; cool. rails can be instant too if it's some true lies ****. but artillery and cannons are insta too? that's just off.
meanwhile, I think torps should be slow, beastly, with a short reach.
I'm looking for a thrust figure for cruises in Newtons but I can't find one--though if I wasn't so tired I could do the kinematic equation thing and figure out what their acceleration is, considering cruise weights (1250kg), and the distance (base 67500m), and time (18s).
my brain dump after finals was a little too thorough. maybe after my nap.
I still think missile rigs are swallowing a horse to chase the dog, though. unless the player plans to stay in "missions and missiles" territory long enough for the missed SP in instant damage types to be worthwhile, I would suggest against missiles altogether. if it's gotta be Caldari, go with drones and rails... though wait, that's a Domi 
at least Achura women are hot.
o7 stoicfaux I respect your anti-troll resists.
Thanatoses for sale | is this what a Nyx sitter looks like? | Guess a number, win a Thanatos |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10153
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 14:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rain6636 wrote:and I'm not happy about it, even though I always enjoyed reaching out and touching someone with cruises. I understand CCP would like to see pvp cruises happen, but think cruises needed to be faster, not stronger.
they're a long way from competing with insta
They are a fair bit faster as well though. And after a happy afternoon of EFTing, I'd say that they're extremely competitive with "insta", since they're doing 1400mm class alpha with Tachyon-class DPS with "optimal" out to 110km on unbonused ships and no worries about tracking.
Seriously, Cruise are not only "competing" but they're definitely the most powerful LR BS weapon in every aspect except instant damage.
1 Kings 12:11
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
830
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 15:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Rain6636 wrote:and I'm not happy about it, even though I always enjoyed reaching out and touching someone with cruises. I understand CCP would like to see pvp cruises happen, but think cruises needed to be faster, not stronger.
they're a long way from competing with insta They are a fair bit faster as well though. And after a happy afternoon of EFTing, I'd say that they're extremely competitive with "insta", since they're doing 1400mm class alpha with Tachyon-class DPS with "optimal" out to 110km on unbonused ships and no worries about tracking. Seriously, Cruise are not only "competing" but they're definitely the most powerful LR BS weapon in every aspect except instant damage.
Alpha Ravens over Alpha Maelstroms, I'd love to do this at least once for lols
"Waaaa Drakes are OP"
Next
"Waaa ravens are OP"
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
51
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 17:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Darling Hassasin wrote:So assuming you are mostly shooting at BSs with all your support skills at 5 and you are riding a ship without any bonus to explosion speed or radius. Moreover lets assume you can fit one TP and one or two rigs to help you.
Will you benefit more from Rigor or from Flares? Remember this is against BS rats, not smaller.
Would the answer be different depending on whether you shoot furies or CN missiles?
Thank you.
WTS EFT damage chart guide. |
Rain6636
Team Evil
578
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 17:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Rain6636 wrote:and I'm not happy about it, even though I always enjoyed reaching out and touching someone with cruises. I understand CCP would like to see pvp cruises happen, but think cruises needed to be faster, not stronger.
they're a long way from competing with insta They are a fair bit faster as well though. And after a happy afternoon of EFTing, I'd say that they're extremely competitive with "insta", since they're doing 1400mm class alpha with Tachyon-class DPS with "optimal" out to 110km on unbonused ships and no worries about tracking. Seriously, Cruise are not only "competing" but they're definitely the most powerful LR BS weapon in every aspect except instant damage.
But Malcanis, sir, there's still the huge issue of targets warping away before the charges land. at least with instant damage types (without tackle), a volley is a volley. without tackle, I can only think of two types of PVP engagements that benefit from the cruise buff: POS/POCO bashing and those involving capitals.
Is there something I don't see? (I realize that potentially, there is a lot.)
Thanatoses for sale |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
837
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 23:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rain6636 wrote:Malcanis wrote:Rain6636 wrote:and I'm not happy about it, even though I always enjoyed reaching out and touching someone with cruises. I understand CCP would like to see pvp cruises happen, but think cruises needed to be faster, not stronger.
they're a long way from competing with insta They are a fair bit faster as well though. And after a happy afternoon of EFTing, I'd say that they're extremely competitive with "insta", since they're doing 1400mm class alpha with Tachyon-class DPS with "optimal" out to 110km on unbonused ships and no worries about tracking. Seriously, Cruise are not only "competing" but they're definitely the most powerful LR BS weapon in every aspect except instant damage. But Malcanis, sir, there's still the huge issue of targets warping away before the charges land. at least with instant damage types (without tackle), a volley is a volley. without tackle, I can only think of two types of PVP engagements that benefit from the cruise buff: POS/POCO bashing and those involving capitals. though a cruise naga would be AWESOME Is there something I don't see? (I realize that potentially, there is a lot.) //cruises with tackle?
Instant dmg application is more of an issue for "small" fleet fights, not one at all at large fleet fight scale, a 109km point on primary stays a 109 km point on primary may you use cruise missiles or arty, and these kind of fights actually occurs mostly in between 70 or not at all because everyone is ready to warp off if a decent and competent FC thinks the range engagement is not on the "window" he wants.
He will tell by range order to blap reccons/dictors and warp out to get another warp in point at the distance he wants for his fleet to have better chances of succeed, if he doesn't do this you're with a terrible FC and you will die no matter what he does.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Rain6636
Team Evil
578
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 02:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
so what's the split between small gang PVP vs large scale PVP in terms of players... or maybe isk?
Thanatoses for sale |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10161
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 08:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rain6636 wrote:Malcanis wrote:Rain6636 wrote:and I'm not happy about it, even though I always enjoyed reaching out and touching someone with cruises. I understand CCP would like to see pvp cruises happen, but think cruises needed to be faster, not stronger.
they're a long way from competing with insta They are a fair bit faster as well though. And after a happy afternoon of EFTing, I'd say that they're extremely competitive with "insta", since they're doing 1400mm class alpha with Tachyon-class DPS with "optimal" out to 110km on unbonused ships and no worries about tracking. Seriously, Cruise are not only "competing" but they're definitely the most powerful LR BS weapon in every aspect except instant damage. But Malcanis, sir, there's still the huge issue of targets warping away before the charges land. at least with instant damage types (without tackle), a volley is a volley. without tackle, I can only think of two types of PVP engagements that benefit from the cruise buff: POS/POCO bashing and those involving capitals. though a cruise naga would be AWESOME Is there something I don't see? (I realize that potentially, there is a lot.) //cruises with tackle?
Perhaps you're not aware but there are these ships that can tackle at quite long ranges.
1 Kings 12:11
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Rain6637
Team Evil
1568
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 09:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
I was not aware 
...I want one?
Thanatoses for sale | is this what a Nyx sitter looks like? | Guess a number, win a Thanatos |
Xyrdiana
FACTS on EVE
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 21:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I was not aware ...I want one? //ok, Lachesis. with links. but I think it needs a battlecruiser/cruise missile gang to go with it. it's just... dat PG
Have you been hiding or something? Tengu fleets was/is one of the most used doctrines atm used and they dont do Insta dps...
Same thing will be with ravens or w/e bs with cruise missiles on it.
before tengus there were drake fleets doing the same thing. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
1569
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 00:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
i'm dying for someone to say T3s will get cruises
Thanatoses for sale | is this what a Nyx sitter looks like? | Guess a number, win a Thanatos |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
159
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 01:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Do not waste rigs for your cruise missiles if using a rattlesnake.
Implants plus one TP is enough and the TP helps the drones too.
Anything small can/should be handled with drones. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
1569
|
Posted - 2013.06.18 01:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
yeah i think i just have more questions than answers to be posting in someone else's thread. a nice way of saying I just don't know ****, if you'll allow it.
there's a lot I don't know, I hope I didn't do any harm.  o7
thank you for your time and patience
Thanatoses for sale | is this what a Nyx sitter looks like? | Guess a number, win a Thanatos |
Darling Hassasin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 11:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
As promised after some playtesting in environment where you hit only npc BSs with Typhoon Fleet issue shows that:
Assuming 1 TP
Assuming CN missiles you need 2 flare 1 rigor or even 3 flare
Assuming Fury missiles you need 2 rigor 1 flare
The above with all support skills 5
I am not mathematically minded though ... perhaps Stoic can post some stats for this scenario...
Also playtesting showed that Furies combined with tech II Garde in TFI with 3+2 damage mods make BSs feel like T1 cruisers... |
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