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Ciyrine
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2013.06.21 19:31:00 -
[31] - Quote
Denuo Secus wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:Missiel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>turrets. While I agree missiles are top notch in some scenarios...I'm curious, how do you come to that broad statement? Please elaborate.
Ignore my zero experience comment but in most games the player with longer range wins. Doing damage while opponent wastes time trying to get in range wins. And it seems like missiles have the highest dps + range combo. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
415
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Posted - 2013.06.21 19:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:Jeann Valjean wrote:Ciyrine wrote:Its probably just perception but in my time reading on the forums it seems like
1) caldari is more prevalent than other factions. Its always jita this, jita that. Why the focus on caldari faction?
2) tengu, raven, drake. These ships come up with much higher frequency in topics than other ships
3) missiles are more prevalent than other weapon systems. Are the other weapons inferior? 1) Jita is the market hub. It has nothing to do with race. 2) These are simply some of the most iconic/popular hulls in the game. Again, it says nothing about the race of the pilot. 3) In PvE probably. Definitely not for PvP. Again, nothing to do with race as many pilots cross-train for different platforms. 1) But jita is not the only market hub. All the factions have one right? 2) their the most popular for a reason All this caldari dominance in ship, weapon sysyem. Economy. Whats behind all of it? 3) so missiles arent the prevalent weapon system for pvp? Was just reading topic guy was all excited about making missiles on account of good/test war. He didnt mention other munitions. Not that i think others arent being used. But if this guy was predominantly excited about prividing missiles doesnt jive with the notion that missiles arent most popular weapon in pvp as well as pve xaxaxaxaxa matard whine^^
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Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
668
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Posted - 2013.06.21 20:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
I missed you <3. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
124
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Posted - 2013.06.21 21:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Heavy Missiles got a huge nerf stick over them, far too high as nerf while still being in the same dps range and application than other weapon systems at one exception: dmg is not instant and thus deserve a buff to that one or ships using them a rof bonus. That the top two ships on eve-kill are HM ships argues otherwise. You are though correct about the range advantages. Notice that the ships sitting on top have 10% missile range bonuses.
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Light Missiles: unless you're using a Navy Caracal with Rapid lights or Navy Drake those suck, jesus they suck ass so hard I can't even explain it.
Rockets: they got a little bit better, actually they do decent dmg but they still lack of something I can't put my finger on maybe because I don't use them much over other weapon systems, that's it. Yes, this is why Talwars are not in the top-20. Noone wants to use light missiles. Or tech I light missiles for that matter. And of course no one is using rockets. Again the 10% per level range bonuses are way too weak. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
76
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Posted - 2013.06.21 21:50:00 -
[35] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:That the top two ships on eve-kill are HM ships argues otherwise. Breaking news, CFC tengus and caracals run HAMs. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
124
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Posted - 2013.06.21 22:29:00 -
[36] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:That the top two ships on eve-kill are HM ships argues otherwise. Breaking news, CFC tengus and caracals run HAMs. Which accounts for all the Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II here. http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
Oh hell where did it go? What is that, Heavy Missile Launcher II? How did it get there? |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
277
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Posted - 2013.06.21 22:47:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:That the top two ships on eve-kill are HM ships argues otherwise. Breaking news, CFC tengus and caracals run HAMs.
We use both, actually.
Deacon Abox wrote:Yes, this is why Talwars are not in the top-20. Noone wants to use light missiles. Or tech I light missiles for that matter. And of course no one is using rockets. Again the 10% per level range bonuses are way too weak.
If you have ever played around with the Talwars, you'll notice they have nearly the range of max skilled Tengu and are fast as **** they are actually awesome little hulls, missiles or no. |
I Accidentally YourShip
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
182
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Posted - 2013.06.21 23:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:Huttan Funaila wrote: The Drake is an easy ship to fly and with the large shield and capacitor, requires less skill (mostly the skill between the keyboard and chair) to fly.
The popularity of Ravens and Tengus are due more to the popularity of missiles.
Missiles always hit their target. There is no tracking issues to worry about (only speed of the target in relation to the speed of the explosion reducing the damage), no consideration of "am I in optimal range or falloff?" This makes using missiles easier for players to consider. People can't focus on too many things at once - and each person has their own limit of the number of different things they can focus on at once. Cognitive overload (too many things going on at once) is a factor in car and aircraft accidents. That's why texting and driving is illegal in many jurisdictions.
huh, it seemed to me that missiles were more involved. They have range considerations, the speed of the target matters vs explosion velocity, the size of the target vs explosion radius. With other weapon types its range, how fast their orbiting vs your tracking. So one less consideration.
Except that you cannot make a difference in those statistics with your piloting. Turrets you can directly affect tracking by piloting to reduce transversal. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
124
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Posted - 2013.06.22 00:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:Yes, this is why Talwars are not in the top-20. Noone wants to use light missiles. Or tech I light missiles for that matter. And of course no one is using rockets. Again the 10% per level range bonuses are way too weak. If you have ever played around with the Talwars, you'll notice they have nearly the range of max skilled Tengu and are fast as **** they are actually awesome little hulls, missiles or no. thus my sarcasm please detect it |
Jeann Valjean
Justified Chaos
4
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Posted - 2013.06.26 19:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:...but in most games...
Forget everything you know from other games and your learning curve will be much better, and you won't lose so much ISK doing dumb sh*t. |
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Kijimea
Mulors
3
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Posted - 2013.06.26 19:43:00 -
[41] - Quote
Well i feel kinda like him. I mean in the past month whenever i read something about different aspects of EvE and ships it feels like tengu ist just everywhere. Tengu here tengu there. Kinda irritatting and i wonder why this ship must be so much better in various situations than the other t3 ships. I fly a legion even when ppl said legion is mostly worse(of course worse than a tengu), i fly it bec i dont like to fly the most popular ship, i fly it because the tengu is so ******* ugly. So of course every ship and race has its goods and bads but i feel him. There is still this feeling due to all the threads the past years found on different forums that some things are way to popular compared to others which makes me believe they are not well balanced. |
Jeann Valjean
Justified Chaos
4
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Posted - 2013.06.26 20:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kijimea wrote:There is still this feeling due to all the threads the past years found on different forums that some things are way to popular compared to others which makes me believe they are not well balanced.
Trickiest thing in EVE is figuring out which posts are still valid, and which are talking about mechanics that have been totally revamped.
Keep in mind what each of the major expansions have added/tweaked and it's a lot easier to weed out the... I don't want to say BS because it may have once been valid... but yeah. Just as a few examples:
- A lot of threads on ship popularity/fits from frigs through battleships are irrelevant now due to tiericide. If fitting advice is older than a year, ignore it. - Anything referencing "Winmatar" for PvP is probably outdated. They're good, but not OP as they used to be. - Armor is no longer inferior to shields like it used to be due to changes around Retribution. Shield fleets are no longer the rule in PvP, and armor fits have gained much in popularity. I'm not saying armor is better or shields aren't good- I'm just saying the dramatic imbalance has lessened. - The old racial bonuses are totally gone. As a few people pointed out, Jita became the main market hub in part due to many people rolling Caldari pilots. This no longer holds true. Which is why I said originally that just because it remains the major hub doesn't mean Caldari is still the most popular race. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
126
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Posted - 2013.06.26 20:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jeann Valjean wrote: - Armor is no longer inferior to shields like it used to be due to changes around Retribution. Shield fleets are no longer the rule in PvP, and armor fits have gained much in popularity. I'm not saying armor is better or shields aren't good- I'm just saying the dramatic imbalance has lessened.
For us in small gang gal/cal FW armor is not inferior. However, even here the kiting with range tactics win more often than the close up smash mouth tactics. Regardless, this is only one small slice of eve combat.
The unfortunate truth is that range and mobility, which shield and Cal/Min ships afford, combined with missiles being capless and having selectable damage are still, even after the Drake/HM nerfs, ruling eve combat in the larger view. http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 The top 4 ships at this date are Caldari. The top two are missile boats. They all have range bonuses on missiles or guns, and they all shield tank. Further down the top 20, the fact that you can even have Talwars sitting in that list at number 8 tells you a lot about the strengths of missiles and shield (which affords mobility).
Jeann Valjean wrote:- The old racial bonuses are totally gone. As a few people pointed out, Jita became the main market hub in part due to many people rolling Caldari pilots. This no longer holds true. Which is why I said originally that just because it remains the major hub doesn't mean Caldari is still the most popular race. One would have to hear from CCP what the latest breakdown on race rolled is for new characters. Judging by the top four ships on eve-kill I would bet it is still Caldari. No longer is there a horde of 3 charisma Achura poncing around. But the ease of training into the top 4 ships if you start as Caldari can't be overlooked. This situation does not bode well for the continued health of the game. |
How2FoldSoup
Hull Tanking Elitists
15
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Posted - 2013.06.27 01:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
Quote:One would have to hear from CCP what the latest breakdown on race rolled is for new characters. Judging by the top four ships on eve-kill I would bet it is still Caldari. No longer is there a horde of 3 charisma Achura poncing around. But the ease of training into the top 4 ships if you start as Caldari can't be overlooked. This situation does not bode well for the continued health of the game.
Totally off topic but I am a 3 char Achura
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Speedkermit Damo
Callide Vulpis Curatores Veritatis Alliance
69
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Posted - 2013.06.27 13:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:Jeann Valjean wrote: - Armor is no longer inferior to shields like it used to be due to changes around Retribution. Shield fleets are no longer the rule in PvP, and armor fits have gained much in popularity. I'm not saying armor is better or shields aren't good- I'm just saying the dramatic imbalance has lessened.
For us in small gang gal/cal FW armor is not inferior. However, even here the kiting with range tactics win more often than the close up smash mouth tactics. Regardless, this is only one small slice of eve combat. The unfortunate truth is that range and mobility, which shield and Cal/Min ships afford, combined with missiles being capless and having selectable damage are still, even after the Drake/HM nerfs, ruling eve combat in the larger view. http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 The top 4 ships at this date are Caldari. The top two are missile boats. They all have range bonuses on missiles or guns, and they all shield tank. Further down the top 20, the fact that you can even have Talwars sitting in that list at number 8 tells you a lot about the strengths of missiles and shield (which affords mobility). Jeann Valjean wrote:- The old racial bonuses are totally gone. As a few people pointed out, Jita became the main market hub in part due to many people rolling Caldari pilots. This no longer holds true. Which is why I said originally that just because it remains the major hub doesn't mean Caldari is still the most popular race. One would have to hear from CCP what the latest breakdown on race rolled is for new characters. Judging by the top four ships on eve-kill I would bet it is still Caldari. No longer is there a horde of 3 charisma Achura poncing around. But the ease of training into the top 4 ships if you start as Caldari can't be overlooked. This situation does not bode well for the continued health of the game.
The real elephant in the room when discussing missiles-v-turrets is tracking disruptors.
Nearly everyone seems to be fitting TDs these days, and why not as they are in my opinion somewhat OP. Fitting missiles or rockets is the only way to counter TDs. Don't Panic.
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Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
128
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Posted - 2013.06.27 16:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote: The real elephant in the room when discussing missiles-v-turrets is tracking disruptors.
Nearly everyone seems to be fitting TDs these days, and why not as they are in my opinion somewhat OP. Fitting missiles or rockets is the only way to counter TDs. Yes. I argued in the previous initial and followup threads in F&I concerning the tech I ewar frigs that these ships should have been given the large bonus ecm boat treatment, and the ewar modules themselves a nerf in base strength.
As long as turrets have a working (and very well working) dedicated counter module and missiles have none this game favors missiles and is imbalanced. I'm talking specifically about solo and small gang. Against a missile boat you simply have to tank or using piloting to mitigate damage. Against turrets you can do both as well and in addition you could have a module fit that specifically fubars your opponents' turrets.
Defenders are broken crap, and require a ship to have a launcher as well which many ships so not have. Smarties are not effective in a solo and small gang skirmish against missiles and are in fact more harmful to drones.
In a large null sec fleet engagement a smartie firewall can be used as an attempt to mitigate massed missile damage. However the continued success of missile boats, as demonstrated by their supremacy on the eve-kill top twenty, indicate that such is apparently not effective enough to deter the heavy use of missiles.
If either a script or sister module to the TD was introduced to the game to alter the range or explosion stats on enemy missiles it would do a lot to balance the weapons. Additionally, as you say, the balancing team should review the strength of non-ecm ewar on non-dedicated ships. TDs, Damps, and Painters could use a reduction in base strength and the dedicated ships an increase in ship bonus for those ewar modules to compensate. |
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
167
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Posted - 2013.06.27 16:46:00 -
[47] - Quote
CALDARI is the SUPERIOR race!! :P
All other races are inferior.
Just Saying... R.I.P. Vile Rat |
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