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Korak Alder	Posted - 2005.11.24 18:25:00 - [91] Why does every one assume people will now pvp without implants? It's not just the loss of implants that deters many people it's the pointless loss of them. +5 implants do **** all for you when you're in pvp. If you were to pull them to pop in pirate ones you lose them anyways. This is retarded. What these clones will let you do is keep yer +5's and be able to swap to your pirate ones to go hunting with, still significant risk if not more risk given current prices on implants. Plus the implants might acctually help your ass live a few seconds longer.
Wolfstriked	Posted - 2005.11.24 18:35:00 - [92] I really think that to solve this "noone wanting to head out to 0.0 space is causing lag in empire" problem is to just expand empire outwards.The amount of concord and customs ships should be growing and hence level .4's will eventually become level .5's.
Apache	Posted - 2005.11.24 18:58:00 - [93] This isn't going to make more people head to 0.0 to start pvping. If the so-called 'carebears' enjoyed pvping they would already be doing it, implants or not. It might increase the amount of carebear ganks in the first few weeks as a few people try it, but I really can't forsee any dramatic increase in pvp in 0.0. Those who enjoy being industrial tycoons will end up not pvping, and those who want to be pvpers will be in 0.0 where they already are. It's not a cost of loss issue, it's a style of play issue. What it will do however is increase the gap between new players and old players. Many old players are more than rich enough to afford the full set of +5s. New players probably won't be able to do the same. You're going to make the 0.0 dwellers even tougher than the newer people wanting to get into 0.0.
Village Bicycle	Posted - 2005.11.24 19:05:00 - [94] Originally by: Mishima The same carebears that go to EVE-FANFEST. I hate sweeping generalisations! ALL of you sweeping generalisers and stupid, inconciderate... lol - see what im saying? :-P ------------- Thomus' Alt If u see this, Thomus is banned. Onubis: ok thats wonderful Thomus: 'ok thats wonderful': u sound like my optician everytime i look from the ceiling to the floor
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.11.25 02:19:00 - [95] Originally by: Callisto Augustus Edited by: Callisto Augustus on 24/11/2005 18:21:44 Two points I have: 1) I think the real issue the pvp'ers have here is that they've played this game since day 1 choosing not to buy implants because of the risk, and now they will be at a disadvantage if they don't create a clone with uber implants. Boo hoo. I feel so sorry for them, don't you? ps. I have +4's in my head pps. Do you think that all the 35m+ SP PvPers got there without implants?
Gonada	Posted - 2005.11.25 02:57:00 - [96] clone jumping will ruin the game if you wierdos dont think so, then your sadly mistaken, all the carebears will come out to play, and the bummage will be huge :) dont say I didnt warn ya, think about it space is huge, but not when a hoard of weekend warriors decide to bum you for a lark, then retreat to their safe bodies. -Baby can you dig your man-
ElweSingollo	Posted - 2005.11.25 03:08:00 - [97] As someone mentioned above topics like this tend to use broad brush strokes i.e. the OMGWTF it's the uber carebear woth his full set of +5 implants that is getting his own way or OMGWTF pvp'ers are not going to have to endure any risk. The whole carebear v pvp'er argument is trying to say that eve is split 50/50 down then middle with the carebear squad sitting with there +5's always secrue in Empire and the YArrr pvp'ers sitting out in 0.0 shooting everything that aint blue. Eve isn't like that though it is a game of shades of grey I wouldn't particularly describe myself as one or the other but personally I do not use implants cause I fail to see the point in the expense when I loose them when I get podded, an occurance that happens on a semi regular basis due to corp wars or entering low sec/non empire space. Would I use them under this scheme that I have yet to see any actual testing been done on in SISI possibly that being said I am obviously not as l33t as the majority posting on here as atm I would struggle to buy more than a couple of +2'S . Quite a few of the pvp centric peeps have said they want the loss to mean something to the person on the other end.... well the thing they have to bare in mind is that while the loss of a b/s may be nothing to a player who has been playing for 2 years wheras to me that would certainly be a hard loss. Even were I in theory to have implants in and loose for example an Apoc worth 120mil plus an approximate 100mil in mods but keep the implants I would be extremely gutted at that happening, I wouldn't want to leave the game over it it but it would hurt and take me a while to recover from that loss. At the end of the day we as players have to co-exist in this "universe" so we need to remember sometimes that the answer may lay somewhere in the middle of what the extremes of "left" and "right" say should be so.
Plutoinum	Posted - 2005.11.25 03:30:00 - [98] Edited by: Plutoinum on 25/11/2005 03:33:51 Edited by: Plutoinum on 25/11/2005 03:31:18 There are already enough reasons not to let people jump through eve in a second and without risk. I have absolutely no clue why we need this implant insurance. This is wow style. Get your stuff once and keep it forever. So everyone will grind for a +5 implant set and put it on a safe clone in empire that he uses while being offline. Contradicts the risk vs. reward principle. At the moment I don't have implants in my head, because of pvp and because I don't have a lot of isk. Might change though (edit once I learn to warp out in time ). This is a decision I made, but it has a drawback. But some people want to change EVE into EVE-Lite and then we end with an easy mainstream game that attracts kiddies and gets boring a lot faster.
Kira Natel	Posted - 2005.11.25 04:28:00 - [99] I figure sit back and see what falls out. As to getting players out to 0.0. While this is not necessarily a Pvp'ers goal, it is most definately CCP's and I think it will fail as most people have little to no interest in 0.0 Hardcore Pvp'ers who are long time vets (not all)seem to be the ones who cannot accept game changes, that don't directly help them, which are trying to benefit the majority of players in CCp's view. Time to take your own advice: Adapt or move on. The Avon's (who's left but just can't quite get out the door ) and Rod Blaine's (very much against the masses) are fast becoming anachronisms and irrelevant in today's EVE. You're like the gunfighter in the wild west as it neared its end when it became settled - No one to fight your way of fightimg anymore.
Callisto Augustus	Posted - 2005.11.25 06:18:00 - [100] Originally by: Liu Kaskakka Originally by: Callisto Augustus Edited by: Callisto Augustus on 24/11/2005 18:21:44 Two points I have: 1) I think the real issue the pvp'ers have here is that they've played this game since day 1 choosing not to buy implants because of the risk, and now they will be at a disadvantage if they don't create a clone with uber implants. Boo hoo. I feel so sorry for them, don't you? ps. I have +4's in my head pps. Do you think that all the 35m+ SP PvPers got there without implants? I'm happy for you. However, you're probably in that <1% eve population that actually pvp's with +4 or higher implants in your head, so lets not skew the direction and purpose of this discussion, mmmkay?
THE NEGRONOID	Posted - 2005.11.25 07:15:00 - [101] u some kina triffler or sommin
VossKarr	Posted - 2005.11.25 07:40:00 - [102] There's a way to balance the situation somewhat when it comes implant-less PvP combat clones: remove ship insurance. Completely. Wanna hurt your enemies? Here's your chance! Just be prepared to be hurt yourselves!
Avon	Posted - 2005.11.25 08:54:00 - [103] Originally by: Kira Natel I The Avon's (who's left but just can't quite get out the door ) and Rod Blaine's (very much against the masses) are fast becoming anachronisms and irrelevant in today's EVE. You only have to put up with me for 14 more days, chill. Also, you are absolutely right. The people who helped CCP during the beta, and then have showed loyal support since release; the people who were there before CCP was profitable; the people who went out there and lived the vision; the people who built Empires knowing the risks; the people who worked through the lack of content, the unbalance, the bugs, the nerfs; the people who endured slow training; the people who accepted that ISK was hard to earn; the people who founded corporations; the people who got their friends to play; the people who helped the new players; the backbone of Eve; are becomming anachronisms. Eve is losing its way. It used to be the biggest and best niche game on the market, but slowly it is transforming in to a small and mediocre mainstream game. It may be good for CCP, but it sucks for Eve. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.11.25 09:23:00 - [104] Rebirth would benefit no-one as much as it would me. So saying I'm against gamechanges that do not directly help me is utter rubbish. I'm against gamechanges that detract from what this game once set out to become. I'm against gamechanges that put it more and more into line with the tasteless rest of MMO-land out there. The gamechanges that make playing it meaningless little step by little step. And I simply like making noise. I think I'm quite far from being an anachronism btw. You might be surprised. As to why you thik the change is any good, that remains kind of unclear to me tbh. I thik it sucks becuase it could very well end up making the average player life easier, yet make us eve vets gods with no meaningfull gameplay left to look forward to. Bored gods always do nasty things in mythology, I don't see why they wouldn't turn for the nasty here tbh. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Tara Armitage	Posted - 2005.11.25 09:30:00 - [105] Originally by: Avon ... the backbone of Eve; are becomming anachronisms. Eve is losing its way. It used to be the biggest and best niche game on the market, but slowly it is transforming in to a small and mediocre mainstream game. It may be good for CCP, but it sucks for Eve. Yep. Eve still is somewhat different and somewhat harder. More challenging and exciting too because of that. Certainly more interesting in the long term than boring grind games. For the life of me I cannot understand why players of this great game want it ruined and made it into the same old same old. If they want to play those games they are out there. Eve is one of its kind at this time. I do understand why CCP would want it but the fans? I also understand why new players coming from other MMORPGs would want it. They are used to another kind of environment. But why did you come to Eve in the first place if you don't like it?
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2005.11.25 09:35:00 - [106] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Kira Natel You only have to put up with me for 14 more days, chill. Eve is losing its way. It used to be the biggest and best niche game on the market, but slowly it is transforming in to a small and mediocre mainstream game. It may be good for CCP, but it sucks for Eve. Can I have your stuff if you're really leaving MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
Avon	Posted - 2005.11.25 09:41:00 - [107] Originally by: MOOstradamus Can I have your stuff if you're really leaving I don't know. I'm considering selling everything off and buying Game Time Cards for ISK just so I can stay on the forums. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.11.25 09:42:00 - [108] give me your stuff Avon or Avon itself! I promise I'll make good use of it :p [Now with MIND BULLETS!]
Avon	Posted - 2005.11.25 09:46:00 - [109] Originally by: Discorporation give me your stuff Avon or Avon itself! I promise I'll make good use of it :p Eeeugh, I feel used and dirty. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.11.25 09:58:00 - [110] If you feel dirty now, wait 'till later [Now with MIND BULLETS!]
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.11.25 10:45:00 - [111] Originally by: Avon I don't know. I'm considering selling everything off and buying Game Time Cards for ISK just so I can stay on the forums. Good idea, it's what -'m doing. I've sold some assets, bought some gtc's and will be haunting you for the next 9 months or so no matter wether I will actually stop playing or not (which is undecided, but the main thing keeping me here is the addiction tbh, not the challenge or gameplay anymore). So, I might very well pull a Discorp on the lot of you here and be obnoxious on the forums without actually playing much As for gtc's and whatever can be said about allowing them to be sold, different thread, whine at me elsewhere for doing it but I'm not gonna pay any rl money anymore either way. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Kira Bellum	Posted - 2005.11.25 11:00:00 - [112] i can understand the whinage about omg implants cost so much.... why not make implants cheaper to come by omgash has that not been thought of? like increase the drop rate.... significantly. implants serve a legit function, increased skill learning at the cost of limited mobility and isk. perhaps if it were like a jump gate where you can only send your pod to.... station to station that would work.. basically clone jumping without killingyourself.... but if you die out in 0.0 implants are lost. one of the fundamental aspects of having an implant was that if you die, your implants are lost. it is clearly designed to nerf the PvPers in comparison to industrialists.... and yet i see the carebears whining the most about it. i mean think about it PvPers are the ones dieing..... therefore PvPers are teh most affected by implant loss. thats probably how it was originally designed..... but carebears are stupid and venture into low sec or 0.0 thinking ccp will hold thier hand.... and they get blown. and PvPers dont buy implants they cant afford to lose.... so we just laugh at the carebears. but really it sickens me that a pure industrialist who is smart enough not to risk his pod gets to keep his implants and i as a PvPer cannot afford to risk them..... basically ccp is biased towards carebears. i really dont think the system as is should have 2 bodies thing.... that just feels lame, when i kill a pod i like the satisfaction of KILLING THE guy. i dont want some evemail laughing at me cause i didnt kill the real guy, i killed his weaker self. my solution: make a station to station "podjump" where players have the ability to get in a station, and pay isk to "jump" thier pod to any other station just like clonejumping. also increase the loot drops of implants in 0.0 thatll get more people in 0.0 the true lack of 0.0 population is due to lack of profit. sure there are a few miners.... but a lot of people hunting miners too. A people should know when they are conquered.
Brannor McThife	Posted - 2005.11.25 12:35:00 - [113] Originally by: Kira Bellum i really dont think the system as is should have 2 bodies thing.... that just feels lame, when i kill a pod i like the satisfaction of KILLING THE guy. i dont want some evemail laughing at me cause i didnt kill the real guy, i killed his weaker self. How will it be different? How did you know before if the person had +5 implants or not? By their whining? It won't change a thing...simply your perception of what the person MIGHT have or might NOT have plugged in. The only person that will ever know if it's a "weaker" clone or not, is the person you're about to pod... Besides, how often do you ransom a pod? Nah... all this is going to do is give you a few more targets occasionally, and the *perceived* view that your victims are weaker. As for "carebears", well, they'll come out to try out 0.0, and be ganked...losing a ship, and probably a implantless clone...but they'll come back...because a ship's a ship... they get the insurance, lose 30mil on the insurance cost, and X million on mods - some of which you'll get, and then go back to empire where they'll farm some more, and come back to give you another target. Enough of that, and they might leave empire and become fulltime PvPers. Don't look at the negative, think of the new people as either fresh meat, or new recruits. In the end, you'll never know if they had implants or not...and if your entire gaming experience hinges off that... sheesh... get a life. -G
Gigi Barbagrigia	Posted - 2005.11.25 13:22:00 - [114] I really don't get this "void 0.0" thing. Been South, been North and even East a bit. Some is quieter than Jove space, some is real mess. Then it shifts. There are chokepoints, empire->0.0 and within 0.0 itself, where nasty stuff can happen. There are station systems where you can have 20+ people in local, strip-mined belts and no rats alive for miles ... and nasty things happening too There are backwater systems where crok roids laugh at your SM2s and you could have local minimized. So what's the fuss about? It's a bloody lawless space. Wild West would have hardly been wild if there were 50 mil people roaming it? There are crapload of safe empire systems w/o stations where you won't see a soul for hours. I don't see people pointing this out. Increse PvP? Rubbish. Maybe for a week or two. As it is now all alliance folks with "legitimate" access to 0.0 have to make a choice. Do you live there and fight for it when needed or go merily around empire not giving a f*. Ok, you can commute and spam channels about "weather report" for pipes or dock and log alt If this goes live, you'll get to eat the cookie and still have it. Neutral/hostile pilots can now even roam about claimed space while alliance chats read "Nah, I'm in empire, cba." But with rebirth I'll just dock, click a button, jump into ship and go gank people who've put some effort in flying up? Don't you think 0.0 will be even emptier? Mining/NPCing and hostiles show up; np, dock, clonejump, continue. One thing that holds my character back from flying around in a dread is 80M wallet; not to mention skills. Can we have charity funds and /skill "skill" <level> command please? Oh and btw, there already IS a way to PvP w/o any consequence ... beside to your ego. It's called Singularity. ----- 42
So'Kar	Posted - 2005.11.25 13:31:00 - [115] Could some dev come here and tell what are the bad side effects of clone jumping. I think most here agree that just allowing players to clone jump instanly and switch implant on/off is very bad idea.
Mangus Thermopyle	Posted - 2005.11.25 14:08:00 - [116] I think that CCP wants more people to try PvP, and this is one way. I am not saying the idea is all good, but it will make more players try out 0.0 and PvP. There could also be other reasons, like maybe CCP has something planned with the Jovian space? PvP in EVE will never be without risk, but it has to be a balanced risk. If to few people are willing to try PvP, than the risk is to high, and if everyone played in 0.0 than the risk is to low.
Mike Spike	Posted - 2005.11.25 14:20:00 - [117] Edited by: Mike Spike on 25/11/2005 14:23:36 Edited by: Mike Spike on 25/11/2005 14:21:10 Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle PvP in EVE will never be without risk, but it has to be a balanced risk. If to few people are willing to try PvP, than the risk is to high, and if everyone played in 0.0 than the risk is to low. Might have the result that it ruins pvp for the current pvp players while non-pvp players still don't enjoy pvp more. So at the end it's just worse. /edit So where does it end ? The next one may complain to CCP and want game changes, after he travelled alone through 0.0 and I blew his MK-5 up.

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