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Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
536
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 17:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Recent events are already setting off the journals in fits of chin-wagging, jaw-stroking, and temple-scratching regarding the strengths and weaknesses of the Caldari system, with radical articles published to gain as maximum a readership as possible, and then counter-radical articles published to similarly gain attention. As always, the truth of the matter is somewhere in between these polarizing opinion pieces. When the crisis subsides, we'll likely see moderate, introspective, and reflective articles that encapsulate that.
The ongoing civil strife within the State is a prototypical example of the greatest flaw with dictatorship; it can only be removed by force. It is my personal opinion that a corrupt democracy is superior to an efficient dictatorship because of that exact reason. A corrupt democracy can be corrected peaceably. The last political crisis in the Federation was President Souro Foiritan's attempted nationalization of the arms industry. This did not end with bloodshed, but instead procedures to a vote of no confidence and ultimately an executive resignation. Something like Haatamo is far less likely to occur in the Federation than it is in the State.
I am not trying to score points here by exploiting a serious political incident. Just the Federation's merits are seldom considered by capsuleers. In essence, "democracy is not all bad". Consider the four great civilizations of the Federation, and the lesser known races. How could you bring those groups into interstellar union on equal terms without democracy? I feel that is an exercise in futility.
While Gallentean democracy will not have the efficiency of Caldari meritocracy or the stability of Amarrian autocracy, it will have the pluralism that neither of those systems could enshrine. We all have our strengths, and we all have our weaknesses. |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
1637
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
The law protects only against those who agree to be bound by it. Authority only has power over those who accept it.
Foiritain did. Heth didn't. Their examples speak to nothing about our relative political systems, only their personalities. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
538
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
I should perhaps clarify that Tibus Heth's dictatorship is exceptionalist, and thus he speaks only about dictatorship in general, not the normalized Caldari system. |

Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
625
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote: I am not trying to score points here by exploiting a serious political incident.
Yes, you are.
You beat around the bush a great deal, but ultimately you are. |

Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
539
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gee, I guess you got me then. |

Narcisa De Fontaine
Core Medical Group
50
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote: I am not trying to score points here by exploiting a serious political incident.
Inhonores. No. You are someone I fear cannot make a series of statements like this and expect that nobody will take note of you as the speaker.
Stop now, before your foot becomes caught in your mouth again.
|

Shiho Weitong
Koa Mai Hoku Nulli Legio
45
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:How could you bring those groups into interstellar union on equal terms without democracy?
Let me counter.
Why would we allow the weak and illoyal into the state? |

Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
629
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mr. Inhonores, the rest of it is, as you say, personal opinion on the virtues and vices of each system. As virtue and vice are both subject to the world-view of the person writing, I doubt it'd be productive for me to try to address you on those.
Still, that you'd claim to not be trying to 'score points' on a terrorist incident when you're doing that -- well, that was galling. |

Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
539
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Narcisa De Fontaine wrote:Stop now, before your foot becomes caught in your mouth again.
Democracy gives everyone a voice, no matter how 'foot-in-mouth' it may be, no?
Shiho Weitong wrote:Why would we allow the weak and illoyal into the state?
Democracy does not discriminate based on who is strong and weak. |

Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2248
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Democracy apparently can't fix stupid either...
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
488
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote: The ongoing civil strife within the State is a prototypical example of the greatest flaw with dictatorship; it can only be removed by force. It is my personal opinion that a corrupt democracy is superior to an efficient dictatorship because of that exact reason. A corrupt democracy can be corrected peaceably.
I have a diametrically opposite point of view: even the best and successful form of democracy is inferior to even corrupt dictatorship.
And I really doubt you can correct all kind of democracies peaceably. For example, take recent events happened in Luminaire solar system. Federal government were ready to sacrifice the whole planet, just to destroy one ship. Or even worse, they were trying to destroy the whole planet by staging attack on the said ship and the planet at the same time, luring ship to fire upon it. And what now? They are all still acting, safe and sound.
They are definitely not planning to correct themselves. They only way I see how to fix it, is to spill their blood. |

Shiho Weitong
Koa Mai Hoku Nulli Legio
47
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Narcisa De Fontaine wrote:Stop now, before your foot becomes caught in your mouth again. Democracy gives everyone a voice, no matter how 'foot-in-mouth' it may be, no? Shiho Weitong wrote:Why would we allow the weak and illoyal into the state? Democracy does not discriminate based on who is strong and weak.
You say that as if it's a good thing.
We have no use for weakness. We have no use for entitlement.
Why should someone who is less productive than me, be considered my equal? |

Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1796
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well you keep your democracy, and we'll keep our meritocracy. That said, you do make some good, if obvious, point... but I'll point out that Tibus Heth's five year Executorship was not something that should be considered 'normal' for the Caldari State. Keep in mind the hundreds of years we spent without anything like him. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
488
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Narcisa De Fontaine wrote:Stop now, before your foot becomes caught in your mouth again. Democracy gives everyone a voice, no matter how 'foot-in-mouth' it may be, no? Democracy gives voice of old and wise scientist the same value as voice of drunken janitor.
And this is why the Federation must be destroyed. |

Andrea Okazon
Knavery Inc. StructureDamage
72
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:The law protects only against those who agree to be bound by it. Authority only has power over those who accept it.
Foiritain did. Heth didn't. Their examples speak to nothing about our relative political systems, only their personalities.
Can any case study actually speak to the strength of a political system? All leaders have personalities; for that matter, all citizens do as well.
We've consistently been able to do away with governors that displease us. It's not a one-off thing. The thing about the crowd is that it won't take you to heaven -- at least not in the short term. But it'll keep you out of hell. Over the long term, I would argue that avoiding these disasters of truly awful leadership is what has allowed the Federation to prosper and endure. |

Narcisa De Fontaine
Core Medical Group
52
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 18:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Democracy gives everyone a voice, no matter how 'foot-in-mouth' it may be, no?
Certainly, though that does not preclude me from using my voice to say I think you should stop it.
There are some IGS commentators that truly make me cringe, Inhonoures. Because when I see them capering around with their underwear on their head, I know deep down that there are casual observers that will forever mistake your brand of performance art for common Federal or even Gallente opinion. |

Seriphyn Inhonores
Destiny Foundation
539
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 19:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Narcisa De Fontaine wrote:There are some IGS commentators that truly make me cringe, Inhonoures. Because when I see them capering around with their underwear on their head, I know deep down that there are casual observers that will forever mistake your brand of performance art for common Federal or even Gallente opinion.
I could make a dummy Neocom avatar to talk about the same things if that will make you happy, Narcisa. |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1012
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 19:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Narcisa De Fontaine wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Democracy gives everyone a voice, no matter how 'foot-in-mouth' it may be, no?
Certainly, though that does not preclude me from using my voice to say I think you should stop it. There are some IGS commentators that truly make me cringe, Inhonoures. Because when I see them capering around with their underwear on their head, I know deep down that there are casual observers that will forever mistake your brand of performance art for common Federal or even Gallente opinion.
This vitriol really is a little excessive, ma'am. |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
488
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 19:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Well you keep your democracy, and we'll keep our meritocracy. That said, you do make some good, if obvious, point... but I'll point out that Tibus Heth's five year Executorship was not something that should be considered 'normal' for the Caldari State. Keep in mind the hundreds of years we spent without anything like him. Indeed, these five years the State was shining with brilliance as never before, and our descendants will forever remember glorious rule of Executor Tibus Heth, revering him among such patriots as Admiral Tovil-Toba. |

Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters Mass Overload
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 19:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:Recent events are already setting off the journals in fits of chin-wagging, jaw-stroking, and temple-scratching regarding the strengths and weaknesses of the Caldari system, with radical articles published to gain as maximum a readership as possible, and then counter-radical articles published to similarly gain attention. As always, the truth of the matter is somewhere in between these polarizing opinion pieces. When the crisis subsides, we'll likely see moderate, introspective, and reflective articles that encapsulate that. The ongoing civil strife within the State is a prototypical example of the greatest flaw with dictatorship; it can only be removed by force. It is my personal opinion that a corrupt democracy is superior to an efficient dictatorship because of that exact reason. A corrupt democracy can be corrected peaceably. The last political crisis in the Federation was President Souro Foiritan's attempted nationalization of the arms industry. This did not end with bloodshed, but instead procedures to a vote of no confidence and ultimately an executive resignation. Something like Haatamo is far less likely to occur in the Federation than it is in the State. I am not trying to score points here by exploiting a serious political incident. Just the Federation's merits are seldom considered by capsuleers. In essence, "democracy is not all bad". Consider the four great civilizations of the Federation, and the lesser known races. How could you bring those groups into interstellar union on equal terms without democracy? I feel that is an exercise in futility. While Gallentean democracy will not have the efficiency of Caldari meritocracy or the stability of Amarrian autocracy, it will have the pluralism that neither of those systems could enshrine. We all have our strengths, and we all have our weaknesses.
Oh, yeah, this is a GREAT time ta be talkin down your nose to the Caldari. Right when we're just starting to work **** out after Heth's dumb ass wrecked everything, you start spewing this typical Gallente BS.
Don't make me get the dreadnought.
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kraiklyn Asatru
T.R.I.A.D
267
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 19:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
So Diana any truth to that rumour....
You know about you and Heth... |

Narcisa De Fontaine
Core Medical Group
53
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 19:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:
This vitriol really is a little excessive, ma'am.
I'm sorry you feel that way. He upsets me.
|

Shintoko Akahoshi
Kabuki TransSolar
247
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 19:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
Narcisa De Fontaine wrote:Scherezad wrote:
This vitriol really is a little excessive, ma'am.
I'm sorry you feel that way. He upsets me.
You are not the only one. He does not represent the best face of the Federation. Bio and writing |

Cyrus Alabel
Justified Chaos
25
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 19:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote: The ongoing civil strife within the State is a prototypical example of the greatest flaw with dictatorship; it can only be removed by force. It is my personal opinion that a corrupt democracy is superior to an efficient dictatorship because of that exact reason. A corrupt democracy can be corrected peaceably.
I have a diametrically opposite point of view: even the best and successful form of democracy is inferior to even corrupt dictatorship.And I really doubt you can correct all kind of democracies peaceably. For example, take recent events happened in Luminaire solar system. Federal government were ready to sacrifice the whole planet, just to destroy one ship. Or even worse, they were trying to destroy the whole planet by staging attack on the said ship and the planet at the same time, luring ship to fire upon it. And what now? They are all still acting, safe and sound. They are definitely not planning to correct themselves. They only way I see how to fix it, is to spill their blood.
Normally I only drop in here to troll, because I find it amusing to provide snarky commentary, but honestly. Why, in Rouvenor's name, would we want to destroy Caldari Prime? It is the home of the Caldari, and while our past has been bitter you simply cannot remove the fact that the Caldari were a founding member of the federation. No matter how we fight, be it in Black Rise or Luminaire, they had a hand in shaping our history, just as we did in theirs. And the only thing--the ONLY thing--that kept us from staying peaceful when we made our break was the Dragonaurs' (hmm, there's a familiar name) bombing of Nouvelle Rouvenor. Had that not happened, we may not be having this argument in the first place. (These days isolationism, frankly, seems like the better option, but that simply cannot be in today's world.)
As a militia pilot I am nominally anti-Caldari, acting in defense of Gallenteans. But before you call me a hypocrite (and forgive my ignorance if I am wrong) the State Protectorate was a pet project of Heth's, mostly Provist lackeys, and given the CPD's recent decision about the man at the top, they are marked with the taint of the Dragonaurs as well. I have no trouble in defending my home. Aggression, however, disgusts me. We do not need to iron out our problems with so many hybrid rounds and missiles.
Spit on my rambling words if you must, but can you not at least be open to the possibility of compromise? Do Tierijev and the success Ishkukone mean nothing to you? Are you so rabidly anti-Gallente that you cannot even conceive of coexistence?
As to the actual conversation of democracy: of course we have problems. Every system has problems. I'd bet even the EoM and Sansha have internal problems, nevermind the fact that they're one of the few enemies most of us agree on. yet I have a feeling your hatred of democracy has something to do with racism. I try to understand the Caldari. I do not tell them how to be Caldari. In turn you do not tell me how to be Gallente. Would it, then, kill you to try to understand us? |

Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1149
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 20:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sir, you ARE wrong about the State Protectorate, because it is mostly staffed by Patriots. The Provists are a tiny percentage of the Caldari people as a whole. If the State Protectorate was staffed only with them it would be tiny.
The problems with Democracy are so numerous that I certainly don't have the space to ennumerate them enough. We can start with the directly observable and push through to the theoretical and still be here next year - suffice it to say that:
1. Democracy is predicated on the theory that a million ordinary people will make better decisions than a hundred exceptional people. Nothing in science or history suggests this to be true.
2. Democracys greatest vaunted quality, that it safeguards the people from abuses by their leaders, is manifestly false. Self-granted rights are routinely ignored 'for the good of the Federation'. Media outlets muzzled. Private citizens imprisoned or worse. There is no protection that a citizen can 'vote' for himself that his government will not strip away, in the dark, if it benefits them.
3. Democracy has made the Federation no more moral in its actions than any other government. Rogue deathsquads have operated in Black Rise and on Home without let or hindrance.
The reason why I seldom, if ever, take Seriphyn Inhonores' mouthings on the Federation and State seriously is because he lives in a Fantasy version of the Cluster where Democracy and Dictatorship are absolutes. In the Real Cluster that the rest of us live in Dictatorships are NEVER absolute and always rely on popular support and Democracies constantly conceal the truth and the levers of power from the masses. |

Reuben Johnson
Gal-Min Industries
165
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 20:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
Democracy...Majority rule over the minority Dictatorship...Minority rule over the majority
Depending on which category you fall into depends on which you feel is better or worse. In the end, they are both Totalitarian. |

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
723
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 20:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
I assumed this was a stealth anti-Imperial/anti-Royal thread.
The State has no dictators. It has a man who attempted to become a dictator and is now being hunted for it. Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's. |

Steffanie Saissore
The Order of the Ebon Rose
80
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 20:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Here I was hoping that there could be a reasonable discourse about ideologies without resorting to threats, insults, and other base negativity.
Perhaps I expected too much. Now, some who have made comments have done so in a reasonable manner without personal attack or vitriol. Are the rest of you just that petty that you feel obligated to tear down another person's idea or opinion just because you disagree? Disagree all you want, but do so in a constructive method. If you think democracy is wrong, fine, explain why with examples and without personal attacks.
Ser Steffanie Saissore, Knight Commander (Errant), Order of the Ebon Rose
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Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
122
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 21:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Indeed, these five years the State was shining with brilliance as never before, and our descendants will forever remember glorious rule of Executor Tibus Heth, revering him among such patriots as Admiral Tovil-Toba. Hah. |

Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
576
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 21:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
First let me remind you that the Federation is a representative democracy. Citizens elect leaders to make decisions for them; because of this, the citizens of the Federation have no more direct control over the day to day operations and major decisions of their nation than Citizens of the State have over theirs. In both systems, most issues are decided by a small number of leaders who hold the power.
Second, the governmental system of the State is not a dictatorship. We have a group of leaders who vote on major issues; it's only been a defacto leadership for the past couple of years because that group choose to rubber stamp the decisions of one individual. Despite this that one man still had to rely on the CEP to go along with him, as we have seen in the past few weeks, there is a limit to that. Also, do not forget that some democratic elements exist in the Caldari system; the CEOs of the megacorporations vote on issues, and at the same time, shareholders are able to vote on issues that determine the direction of the corporations they hold shares in, and one of the items that can come to a vote includes the selection of corporate CEOs.
I think you are falling into the trap of forming an opinion on a limited data set. HETH'S dictatorship has been bad thus far, while the MOST RECENT change in power in the Federation was fairly smooth. Unfortunately you have ignored quite a bit of other information regarding both systems however. You never mentioned the Amarr Empire, and you haven't mentioned the Minmatar Republic, which is also a "democracy" but has recently attacked its own ally and shed blood. You also ignore your own history. Yes the most recent changeover in power was bloodless, but remember that the Caldari used to be a part of the Federation and a failing of the Federation's system of government led to a century of civil war that ultimately resulted in two separate nations. In addition, that same democracy felt the need to lay siege to an entire planet over a terrorist incident; more damningly, I've had people tell me that was NOT a popular decision amongst the citizenry, and that fact, nor the quick replacement of the leadership afterwards, does not negate the fact it happened under that system, so democracy isn't as bloodless as you claim it to be.
From what I am seeing, it isn't the merits of each system that matter, so much as the quality of the leaders, since each system we have seen has seen its fair share of good leaders and horrible leaders, and regardless of system, when bad leaders are placed in charge, bad things happen. The Federation has merely been lucky in that their most recent leadership has allowed itself to turn over more gracefully (I wont claim you have better people overall right now since the majority of the CEP is made up of reasonable people while at the same time your president has given Mentas Blaque, a racist monster no better than Heth, free reign to terrorize your own people).
That said, at the end of the day, I prefer the Caldari system of government since the people who vote on issues actually have some stake in it, and the people who rise up the ranks are theoretically the ones most capable (though, naturally every system has its share of bugs). I won't deny cultural bias likely plays a big issue in this opinion, but 5 years of less than stellar rule does not negate the many decades prior that did not have such issues. |
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