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Denis Sandalov
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Posted - 2005.12.04 07:13:00 -
[1]
Hello, All
First of all I want to apologize for posting this topic, because I'm
dead sure there are tons of other threads about defenders.
However I have not find a constructive discussion yet and want to try
to open one here. Let's get down to business.
Many players complain the defenders are useless because:
1) It's quite difficult to manage them during hot battle. You need to
visually notice the upcoming missiles and activate your defenders.
2) All launched defenders lock nearest missile and can not properly re-lock to
other incoming missiles when this missile destroyed.
3) They often miss their target and forced to swing around to continue
pursuit. As a result the incoming missile hits your ship during this
delay.
These are the most annoying issues IMHO. Therefore in order to make
defenders useful we need the following features to be implemented:
1) Auto-launch ability. When the launcher(or may be appropriate
hi-slot module specially designed for defenders) is turned on the
defender is launched every time when there is an incoming missile in
vicinity.
2) If the incoming missile is already targeted by launched defender,
other launched defenders (if there are other incoming missiles) should find new target for themselves. However I guess there are a number of technical restrictions which make the implementation of this feature a bit tricky.
3) Not sure about it, but defender has to hit its target always on collision course like it was before missile overhaul.
I guess even implementation of first feature will make our life better
:)
Please provide your thoughts. I'll also surely appreciate if
Developers share their thoughts here too.
Many thanks.
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Denis Sandalov,
Customer Service Executive, Intrice LLC.
email: mailto:[email protected]
www: http://www.intrice.com |
Blazde
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Posted - 2005.12.04 09:28:00 -
[2]
I'd like to see a 'defender launcher' that'd be a med-slot module, much more like a missile version of the tracking disruptor. As it is currently it's unbalanced because a battleship firing defenders from it's cruise launcher is doing it 6 times slower than a frigate using a rocket launcher. Sure a battleship can fit rocket launchers bit the intended flexibility of swapping missile types just isn't there then.
The way defenders destroy missiles is quite ugly: the HP of missiles aren't listed in show info. It's quite possible you'll half damage every missile coming at you for no gain whatsoever. I'd suggest a damaged missile gets an explosion damage/radius/velocity penalty, or defenders have a % chance to destroy their target. This would also make the needed AI a bit more obvious: defenders could target the nearest missile that has the least number of defenders already chasing it.
Auto-launch - defintely, defenders are 100% useless in frigate combat since the missiles velocity boost because the enemies missiles aren't in the air long. They need to be launched server side.
Defenders should target missiles tracking gang mates - Pretty obvious. Defenders are a solo defensive measure atm, it doesn't need to be that way. Again, bring it inline with tracking disruptors.
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Red Chika
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Posted - 2005.12.04 16:47:00 -
[3]
I think the defenders should stay as they are.
why?
well missiles are nerfed and improving defenders now would make em even worse, and would unballance the game since they are pretty much at pair with turrets now(exept when hitting small targets with a larger missile), might i add they work pretty well against torp's at mid range.
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Denis Sandalov
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Posted - 2005.12.05 06:25:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Red Chika
I think the defenders should stay as they are.
why?
well missiles are nerfed and improving defenders now would make em even worse, and would unballance the game since they are pretty much at pair with turrets now(exept when hitting small targets with a larger missile), might i add they work pretty well against torp's at mid range.
The balance can be kept by increasing HP of missilies. All the most of us wants is to make defenders more "friendly" in use.
----------------------
Denis Sandalov,
Customer Service Executive, Intrice LLC.
email: mailto:[email protected]
www: http://www.intrice.com |
Minxella
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Posted - 2005.12.05 09:10:00 -
[5]
If never had a problem with defenders, when I launch one it always hits its target. |
Denis Sandalov
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Posted - 2005.12.07 03:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Minxella
If never had a problem with defenders, when I launch one it always hits its target.
Please let me ask you a question: How often do you use defenders?
----------------------
Denis Sandalov,
Customer Service Executive, Intrice LLC.
email: mailto:[email protected]
www: http://www.intrice.com |
Donna Darko
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Posted - 2005.12.07 14:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Minxella
If never had a problem with defenders, when I launch one it always hits its target.
And from how many hundred kilometers?
Defenders are pretty ok as they are now with 2 exceptions, in my oppinion:
- they have to do an L in space to hit the misile (wtf?! is this only a graphic bug?) and thus miss it if the missile is close.
- they are useless if you are within a certain range (0-20 km in my experience).
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Please fix the scan probes!!! (also included a guide to use them) |
Happysin
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Posted - 2005.12.07 15:00:00 -
[8]
Autolaunching makes sense to me, as does %chance to kill, instead of HP damage.
The flipside to this is you can make that %chance to kill start rather low as to not nerf missles much more. As anyone who follows Antiballistic missle research knows, a needle hitting a needle is hard. the %chance of interception should be low.
If anyone here has played the Mechwarrior series, this isn't too different to how the AMS system works, except that AMS is projectile-based, instead of missle-based.
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Thunderbird Anthares
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Posted - 2005.12.07 21:32:00 -
[9]
i did play mechwarrior
yes,defenders are useless
i`d say make a "defender" launcher able to fire "only" defender missiles,make it fire damn fast,automatically,on all missiles in range (friend or foe),and low % chance of destroying the incomming hostile missiles.
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When you get to the end of your journey,everything that really matters is the journey itself. |
Lord Onikendo
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Posted - 2005.12.07 21:44:00 -
[10]
either that an "Aegis Weapons System" weapon upgrade in the middle slot where u activate and it'll handle the targetting and launches the missle to the target. This would be increase dmg, rof, and speed if this would be implemented and costing almost like the aegis destroyer 20 million :-P
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weard
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Posted - 2005.12.08 04:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Denis Sandalov
The balance can be kept by increasing HP of missiles.
That would unbalanced the game even more.
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Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2005.12.08 07:46:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Spy4Hire on 08/12/2005 07:52:10
What I'd like to see:
A defender missile bay. Small (fits about 20), medium (60), and large (120). They all have the same ROF - about 3 seconds or 2 with rapid-launch up to lvl5. Only defender missiles can fit in these bays. These bays would be considered 'always active' unless offline and will respond automatically to incoming missiles. Missile defense is not considered a 'hostile' action.
Also: Heavy defender missiles (2x the cargo as standards) but pack much more whallop and travel further. Can pop a torp in 1 hit instead of 2 or 3 for standard defenders.
This would give ships a viable defense against missiles which is currently completely lacking in EVE.
Alternately:
Missile ECM - Medium slot - has a % chance of disrupting incoming missiles and forcing them to detonate at a safe range. Base 30% up to 70% w/ high electronic warfare skills.
Fleet Missile ECM - does the same thing, but covers all ships in that gang if they are within it's large sphere of influance. Gang-assist module. Skills make the defensive radius larger, base 30km/r.
Passive missile countermeasure (chaff) - low slot - 15% chance to redirect missile to a random target, up to 40% w/ skills or T2 version. 5km base range, must be 'turned on' but once active remains that way until turned off. Yes, this means that a confused missile can retarget the launching ship... or retarget the correct ship. Or a stargate, neutral, friendly... even an asteroid. Very nasty results in empire wars (perhaps limit use in Empire to 'auto destruct only').
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Tresh Keen
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Posted - 2005.12.08 08:38:00 -
[13]
the Defenders should stay like they are - they do the job and thats ok. In my oppinion they hit the target to often.
With all your changes two or three Assault Launcher can kill all the Torps or cruise from a Missile BS. So maybe we need then a special, not so fast, defender missile launcher....
Cheers, Tresh
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Tresh Keen
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Posted - 2005.12.08 08:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Spy4Hire
Edited by: Spy4Hire on 08/12/2005 07:52:10
What I'd like to see:
A defender missile bay. Small (fits about 20), medium (60), and large (120). They all have the same ROF - about 3 seconds or 2 with rapid-launch up to lvl5.
Also: Heavy defender missiles (2x the cargo as standards) but pack much more whallop and travel further. Can pop a torp in 1 hit instead of 2 or 3 for standard defenders.
Oh, 2-3s ROF and can POP a Torp with one Missile? Thats balanced? Then i just want to have a mid or high slot module that disrupts all cannons around 100km for 100% - then we can sit there and shoot as long we have ammo, and we dont need any repper or booster.....
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Minxella
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Posted - 2005.12.08 08:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Denis Sandalov
Originally by: Minxella
If never had a problem with defenders, when I launch one it always hits its target.
Please let me ask you a question: How often do you use defenders?
Actually its on 90% of my ship setups. I have found them to be absolute life savers. Especialy against caldari missile spewing *****s (No offense to anyone caldari) |
Mesuno
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Posted - 2005.12.08 12:30:00 -
[16]
The main problem I have with using defenders is that you have no control over which missile they target. I've been using them doing L4 missions, particularly when being spammed by NPC torpedos.
The effectiveness of defenders is completely borked by frigates and cruisers orbiting at close range and spamming light missiles. The missiles are too close for the defenders to take down which would be fine IF you had the option of specifying targets for it to hit instead.
For instance setting up a rocket launcher with an option
'autofire on missile type - light
heavy
cruise
torp'
then defenders from that launcher will only fire when the missile type they are set to counter is fired, and will also only lock on to that type of missile.
This would turn defenders from being 90% useless junk, to being a valuable strategic tool. If your weakness is EM and someone is spamming EM cruises, then you set it to take out cruises or what ever.
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StOrM ViPeR
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:36:00 -
[17]
I think you'd end up with a defender missile for each class of target.
Torp defender
Cruise Defender
Light Defender
Heavy Defender |
Hohenheim OfLight
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:47:00 -
[18]
Just an option to turn them on and leave them on would be nice. Its pain having to turn it on each time u want ot laucnch one.
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Contribute to the buy Hohenheim a carrier fund in game now! |
Denis Sandalov
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Posted - 2005.12.12 07:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight
Just an option to turn them on and leave them on would be nice. Its pain having to turn it on each time u want ot laucnch one.
I quite agree with you. This modification will automatically make life better. Those who tell that defeneders should stay unchanged are obviously do not use them at all.
The suggestions about are also very valuable and can serve as a good starting point for general improvement of defenders. It would be nice if devs share their vision with us.
----------------------
Denis Sandalov,
Customer Service Executive, Intrice LLC.
email: mailto:[email protected]
www: http://www.intrice.com |
Wukwuk
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Posted - 2005.12.12 12:32:00 -
[20]
> 1) It's quite difficult to manage them during hot battle. You need to visually notice the upcoming missiles and
> activate your defenders.
There's a sound effect, too, you know. :) But I agree, they need to auto-launch. They should either trigger when the launcher is activated and a missile is incoming, or just launch at max rate, regardless of actual incoming missiles. The second approach would use a lot of ammo but still be balanced if defenders' chance-to-hit gets boosted.
I'm dead against using a new launcher for them because that would make rocket/assault launchers on bigger ships useless. As it is now I can justify one high to either defent against missiles or nasty frigs.
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Felcas
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Posted - 2005.12.12 21:14:00 -
[21]
I agree.
My sugestion...
1st - activate defenders and they should be on standby, any missiles launched AGAINST YOU OR ANY SHIP ON YOUR GANG, even for non targeted ship should cause the launch of the defender missiles. OR instead, once activated, a defender is launched as soon as the launch speed allow, for example launch a defender each 5 or 10 seconds...it would fly straight out and if any missile is launched agaisnt the ship or agains anyother ship in gang the still flying defender would turn and intercept the incoming enemy missile.
2nd - normal missiles should have a better damage value to counterbalance a better designed defender missile.
3rd - Vulcan defender guns - like those used in actual RL ships meant to destroy incoming ASMs and AGMs. Simply you install it on a high slot, once activated it would defend your ship against missiles using kind of very small projectiles or cristals. He would need a radar, soo it would be more visible for sensors, lets say his own signature would increase with the use of those anti missile guns.
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I love trade - the market is my battlefield
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Denis Sandalov
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Posted - 2005.12.14 05:48:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Felcas
3rd - Vulcan defender guns - like those used in actual RL ships meant to destroy incoming ASMs and AGMs. Simply you install it on a high slot, once activated it would defend your ship against missiles using kind of very small projectiles or cristals. He would need a radar, soo it would be more visible for sensors, lets say his own signature would increase with the use of those anti missile guns.
I like this idea very much, but IMHO it will significantly ****f the balance so the devs will not implement it.
----------------------
Denis Sandalov,
Customer Service Executive, Intrice LLC.
email: mailto:[email protected]
www: http://www.intrice.com |
Boonaki
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Posted - 2005.12.14 07:57:00 -
[23]
People need to lay off the whole "missiles are nerfed" with the right skills, your doing far more damage then before the missile boost as long as your using the right missile.
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
Denis Sandalov
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Posted - 2005.12.17 18:26:00 -
[24]
BTW recently I started to learn missile skills... after aquiring my own Nightmare :)
----------------------
Denis Sandalov,
Customer Service Executive, Intrice LLC.
email: mailto:[email protected]
www: http://www.intrice.com |
Denis Sandalov
|
Posted - 2005.12.20 08:49:00 -
[25]
It seems the things will stay the same, because only few people want the changes for defenders.
----------------------
Denis Sandalov,
Customer Service Executive, Intrice LLC.
email: mailto:[email protected]
www: http://www.intrice.com |
Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2005.12.20 09:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Denis Sandalov
It seems the things will stay the same, because only few people want the changes for defenders.
Actually, many do, they've just given up talking about it since they/we've been mentioning it since a week after the missile-buff (you know, the one some people call a 'nerf').
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TheMailman
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Posted - 2006.01.23 01:11:00 -
[27]
situation :
15 npc cruisers @ 25km, spitting out heavy missiles
1 named npc battleship @ 60km+, spitting out torpedoes
defenders being fired from 2 assault launchers
assault launchers cant take out more than one missile out of 16 per cycle, but hey, i was lucky to get that one out  ... (if there was a missile 20km or closer, they wouldnt hit)
and dont tell me to use rocket launchers 
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St Dragon
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Posted - 2006.01.23 03:11:00 -
[28]
You only need 2 changes to amke defenders work
1. Autolaunch missile is fired at you a defender flys out.
2. Defenders defend your gangmates will make for a good defensive screen in fleet battles.
-----------------------------------------------
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand |
Red Flag
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Posted - 2006.01.23 09:49:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Red Flag on 23/01/2006 09:54:05
A agree. Defender missiles are supposed to be specially design missles made to take out other missiles and should do their job properly. The missile launcher they are in should once activated, remain activated until turned off. While active the missiles should auto-launch at an incoming missile. Perhaps all of them would launch if more then one is used, or perhaps only one is launched if all are used... If the missile they are after is destroyed they should search for a new missile as a target... and the defender missile should always (being designed to) hit the other missle head-on... and in the event that it has to turn to chase after a missile (say it's target was destroyed and now it changed targets) it should be fast enough to out-pace other missiles minum two to one.
Think of it this way... a regular missile is carrying a payload to damage a ship, a defender only has to breach a missile... missiles are designed to explode, so it shouldn't take much to cause an armed missile to do so. Thus, a defender needs less payload to achieve it's goal and can use that room for extra fuel and speed.
---
Another useful device might be flares. A flare and/or Foil, I could see taking up a medium slot (defender missiles shouldn't!) Flares and Foils are used to try and fool a missile into thinking that the Flare (usually for heat seakers) or Foil (other types of tracking missiles) is actually the target. Each Flare or Foil (I'll say Decoy) would give a % chance the missile would chase the decoy and thus not the target, but there is no guarentee they will. Also, things like a target painter would practically completely nulify a decoy making the decoy completely useless against a painter which any missile boat would have. Decoys though might shine against F.o.F. missiles, if the Decoy gave out radio signals and the like to completely make a F.o.F. think it's the target... and there's an idea for Rock/Paper/Scissors.
I also like the idea of a Defender working to protect gangmates.
And I also like the idea of Anti-Missile systems that I've seen elsewhere.
Lastely though, if these features are going to be brought in to totally make missiles hard to use against a properly equipped target, I belive missiles abroad should pack more punch. A Missile boat launching 5 missiles at once might get 2 knocked down by defenders and 1 distracted by a decoy, but the remaining two that hit should really fricken hurt.
It's one thing I was surprised about in this game when I begain playing it, is how weak missiles are. I have played many space based games from Wing Commander I to Wing Commander: Privateer (3) The Darkening, Freelancer, Homeworld, and others... and one and missiles usually rule on those games. Heck, in Freelancer I usually shot the shields off my targets and launched a missile or two and watched them go bye, bye.
Shields should be the ultimate protection against missiles, and missiles should be the ultimate devistation against armor IMO.
Red Flag
Poet, Prophet, Pirate |
Kelador Stormwolf
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Posted - 2006.01.23 13:01:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Happysin
As anyone who follows Antiballistic missle research knows, a needle hitting a needle is hard. the %chance of interception should be low.
As anyone who follows anti-ballistic missile research (or even played Missile Command) knows, the anti-missile missile doesn't have to hit the incoming warhead - they're designed to explode in proximity with the missle and cause it's destruction - or at least enough disruption that it misses it's intended military target and falls on the nearest school / hospital, thereby allowing the defending media to go ballistic ;) ...but I digress.
Yes, the chance of an intercept should be 'small' but not infinitesimally so (as it stands with current small missiles). Anyone who thinks that missiles should always hit is very mistaken... even the latest missiles today have to get though a barrage of defenses.
Phalanx / Aegis point defense type gatling guns are a 'better' solution for larger ships that can carry a ton of spare ammo (those things really chew through rounds as they put a serious amount of lead in the air in a very short time to hit anything).
Other 'contemporary' solutions such as chaff / flare may or may not work depending on the missile guidance system) flares are unlikely to be effective as it is unlikely that missiles fired in space would be heat seeking otherwise they'd probably lock on to the nearest sun ;)
Chaff / decoys are effective by creating a 'dummy' radar image that looks like the ship. Whether the missile is fooled depends a lot on exactly when the chaff is released in relation to the flightpath of the aircraft / missile.
Current fighter pilots train missile evasion tactics - there should also be a chance (for smaller ships / drones / fighters at least) to dodge the missile based on the pilot's evasive maneuvre and ship agility, which currently doesn't seem to be a factor (unless I'm missing something).
As for people who think carrying anti missile systems is 'unfair' - remember that by doing so you're reducing your options for offensive firepower. It's no good being able to shoot down half the missiles in the sky if you can't overcome the defenses of the ship firing them.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." |
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