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Virxe
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Posted - 2005.12.09 22:19:00 -
[1]
Are they really worth it? I know they have the range and cap bonuses but are they worth all the training and junk? Can the Caldari run shield transporters and stuff almost non-stop? If not how long can they run it on average? Would it be better to just get a Scorp and put some of that junk on it or do it with a ferox since the cap is 3 times as much?
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.12.09 22:43:00 -
[2]
I find the benefit from a BC with Gang assist is far better then the Logistics Cruisers. I no longer use my Logistic support ship unless itÆs for a complex a BC cannot go in.
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Virxe
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Posted - 2005.12.09 22:51:00 -
[3]
Ok thanks. I guessed as much by looking at their stats..just wanted to make sure.
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Laythun
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Posted - 2005.12.09 23:21:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Virxe
Are they really worth it? I know they have the range and cap bonuses but are they worth all the training and junk? Can the Caldari run shield transporters and stuff almost non-stop? If not how long can they run it on average? Would it be better to just get a Scorp and put some of that junk on it or do it with a ferox since the cap is 3 times as much?
treat them as an added bonus when u FINALLY get round to training cruiser V.
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Amerame
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Posted - 2005.12.09 23:25:00 -
[5]
They are so completely useless it's a shame, and it's going to be even worse with RMR, remote tracking, sensor, whatever won't stack as well as they used to.
When you see a ship even less often than a stealth bomber, there's a problem.
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Kai Lae
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Posted - 2005.12.10 00:22:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Amerame
They are so completely useless it's a shame, and it's going to be even worse with RMR, remote tracking, sensor, whatever won't stack as well as they used to.
When you see a ship even less often than a stealth bomber, there's a problem.
Wrong. They'll be better, since now 8 tracking links on a scorp will be useless. The max that would provide any useful effect is 4, and with the ship bonus on the oneiros and scrimitar this means they are now the most effective remote tracking link ship in the game.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2005.12.10 00:23:00 -
[7]
Logistic cruisers should be getting a CPU reduction to Gang assist modules like the BC. At least they'd be alot more useful than they are now.
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Toshuno Driana
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Posted - 2005.12.10 00:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Laythun
Originally by: Virxe
Are they really worth it? I know they have the range and cap bonuses but are they worth all the training and junk? Can the Caldari run shield transporters and stuff almost non-stop? If not how long can they run it on average? Would it be better to just get a Scorp and put some of that junk on it or do it with a ferox since the cap is 3 times as much?
treat them as an added bonus when u FINALLY get round to training cruiser V.
Don't forget the other 2 level V skills you need
Signature Analysis V
Long Range Targetting V
Biggest waste of my time ever, i've used my Scimitar once, and that was flying it from where i bought it to where i keep it in a hangar now.
Angers me. |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2005.12.10 00:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Toshuno Driana
Don't forget the other 2 level V skills you need
Signature Analysis V
Long Range Targetting V
Biggest waste of my time ever, i've used my Scimitar once, and that was flying it from where i bought it to where i keep it in a hangar now.
Angers me.
Signature Analysis V
and Long Range Targeting V are hardly useless, atleast when you pvp alot
Originally by: Oveur
****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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Toshuno Driana
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Posted - 2005.12.10 01:04:00 -
[10]
Wasn't suggesting they are useless at V :) I was just saying those are another 2 level V skills you need so it's not a case of "oh look i'm in a hac, lets have a go in a logistics" for all those who dont have those two skills yet.
My logistics cruiser is however, still the biggest piece of crap i own :). |
Malena
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Posted - 2005.12.10 22:46:00 -
[11]
The logistics cruiser is not something you can casually get into. My buddy has a basilisk and is a dedicated pilot for it. It took a lot of skillpoints for him to get there, but that thing is uber pimptastic. He can infinitely sustain 5 medium tech 2 shield transfers and a tech 2 tracking link. (I know the bonus isn't as efficient for tracking links, but most of the group we run with are shield tankers, so the shield transfer is better, plus caldari was the first race he had for cruiser 5) He can also run the 6th shield transfer long enough to allow someone to warp out without getting blown up or stay in the battle long enough to kill whatever is hitting him. Now, I will admit we only use that ship for NPCing right now, but that is because the opportunity to test it in PvP hasn't arisen. So, if you want to do that sort of thing as a profession, and you have a regular group of folks that you can run with who will appreciate it being there, then it is worth the skill time and ISK investment. Otherwise stick with a dominix or scorp.
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Pistonbroke
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Posted - 2005.12.12 17:26:00 -
[12]
I've only just gotten into a Logistics cruiser (Basilisk), and it's already proved to be useful. Mine can run 2 x Large Sheild Trasport Arrays permenantly, with bursts of a Large Cap Transfer Array to supplement the flagging cap of other ships, I've even got a med remote armor repper that I can switch on by deactivation another mod.
I'm currently using Eutectics and a single CPR (with a T2 Shield booster fitted) and even without the second CPR and T" cap rechargers, the cap recharges in 60 seconds, and transferred shield is ~ 125 HP/second (L4 Logistics)
I am keen to use it in combat, but there always seems to be a scarcity of people willing to risk their battleships, so I usually end up having to leave it in the Hangar when its time for an excursion.
So rubbish? no. Underutilised, and (currently) untrusted? perhaps.
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000Hunter000
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Posted - 2005.12.12 17:55:00 -
[13]
Been asking this a lot but haven't got a decent answer yet, as some of u are flying the basilisk, could u tell me your setup? (unless it's a big secret  ) i fitted a Large shield battery but i'm not sure if thats the way to go, atm i can fit a large T1 shield transfer and energy transferer but not much else.
Still training to Logistics L4 and training the remote shield and energy skills as well. (there all at L3 atm)
thnx in advance.
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Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2005.12.12 18:13:00 -
[14]
I'm interested in some feedback on the use of logistics ships, specificly the Guardian (and use of its cap transfer ability)
Since most folks that do use logistics seem to use them for PvE, let's confine the discussion to that.
The primary ability of the Guardian is cap transfer. Amarr battleships use a lot of cap, and with a dedicated transfer ship that means they don't have to fit any recharger in mid or relay in low.
But when the choice is an extra damage ship or a logistics, the benefit seems minimal. You free 3 mids, and perhaps a low(and plenty will be free after RMR and HS stacking penalty) It would seem you would need a LARGE group for the logistics to be more useful than a single batleship. Is that how they are being used?
The other option of course would be if you could focus all the agresssion on one ship, then perhaps a booster ship to boost tank makes sense.
In what situation(s) would 1 logistics + 1-3 other ships be better than an additional battleship?
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Wesley Harding
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Posted - 2005.12.12 18:18:00 -
[15]
Like I said in my logistics topic. Lemme give a whole tank, not just the repair part.
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2005.12.12 18:58:00 -
[16]
They are very good at helping ships tank POS damage.
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Shira d'Radonis
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Posted - 2005.12.12 19:08:00 -
[17]
And what about the t1 cruisers? Aren't the Scythe, Augoror, Exequror, and Osprey getting bonuses like the Logistics ships? How will that affect their usefulness since the t1 cruisers are much much lighter in costs and training requirements?
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ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö
"Our histories, one day, will absolve me..."
- Shira d'Radonis
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John Quicksilver
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Posted - 2005.12.12 19:30:00 -
[18]
Edited by: John Quicksilver on 12/12/2005 19:35:15
Hi guys, i personaly fly my basilisk a lot, infact i very rarely fly anything else. The simple fact is that with a little skill time after you can fly them, they are T3H UB3R!! At level 4 logistics i could sustain 6 medium t2 shield transfers (1152 every 4.5 seconds i think).
That setup was just cap relays in low, cap rechargers in med and shield transfers in the high.
Now with logistics 5 (which i wouldn't have trained if it wasn't compleatly worth it) i can run 3 medium t2s and 3 large t1 shield transfer arrays with the same arrangement of med and low.
:EDIT: btw for all these setups i coudl sustain all the mods indefinetly.
For note, with both these setups i had shield emision systems 4 (neccesary for t2 transfers)and energy systems operation 4. Thats it, i mean you could probably train that in about 4-5 days and then u're compleatly uber.
Now on the thought of using another ship for the logistics role: it's simply not good enough, i used both a prophecy and a ferox and could at most run 2 t2 meds. In my basilisk i can run 3 t2 meds and 3 t1 larges! not to mention the amazing range bonus (about 5km to ~55km).
It's an extraordinarly simple fact that most people seem unable to grasp, they are not useless, i have probably saved my corp countles millions in ship losses from saving their buts (not that they're that useless but the point still stands). Another point is that they are primaraly ment to help other players, not for you so stop trying to fit guns or tanks or anything like that (although a minimal tank is ok aslong as you don't sacrafice much boosting).
I'll admit that i have had very little practice with this ship in pvp due to the fact that i havn't had a war for so long. However, i have been through several 100+ person gate camps and made it out alive with most ships intact. This ship is made mainly for mission use and not pvp, a fact which i have been raising to ccp for months and have yet to recieve any sort of responce. Not even a "that idea sucks" or "oooh hadn't thought of that" just nothing. I would dearly love to see these ships made a bit more pvp friendly but for now mission running is all i can do in it.
One way i can think of to extend this ships ussage to pvp has been to give it a sort of special ability that makes it look like another ship, like a cloak but not quite. To make sure this doesn't make it to uber perhaps it would be limited to ships or equal size or above? or perhaps make it look like the ship currently selected as a primary target (to fire weapons etc).
Just let me know what you think guys becuase i've been trying to sort out logistics for a while in terms of pvp.
Oh and no flame becuase they're just ideas, not verbal attacks against anyones opinion or anything
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Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2005.12.12 21:43:00 -
[19]
John Quicksilver:
Since you are a dedicated Logistics pilot I wonder if you could answer a few questions:
1) Do you go through complexs with a team who specificaly setup knowing they will have a logistics ship to assist them? Or do you just "clean up" and help folks who don't manage agro properly and aren't really setup to tank. (no high end complex experience so not sure how it really works).
2) Do you find much use for the energy transfer as opposed to the shield transfer? As an experienced logistic pilot in what sorts of situations do you transfer energy? Is it planned in advance that certian ships will get energy transfer or is it more of done on the fly for folks who don't manage their cap?
3) Is there any complex that could be done with 2-3 people where having one in a logistic ship would be more efficent than having an extra damage dealer?
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Meathook
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Posted - 2005.12.12 22:03:00 -
[20]
Atm, the most i use a logistic ship is in cosmos. and not really for the missions (ocasionally) but when we need to use codebreakers and analyzers for cosmos components, because all the sites containing those have pretty fast spawn rates. The person doing the scanning usually needs cover cos their setup will be gimped by the codebreaker/analyzer, and the respawn is so intense, it comes handy to have a logistic.
Due to training, all i have tried is a scimitar. About cap tranfer preferences, i simply don't know. Tbh, most of the purpose of boosting the tank is to prevent the user from having to waste his cap, so if there's any turret boat covering, i rather prefer to boost their tracking. Scimitar also seems to handle long enough if targeted, so far i'm happy about it and would like trying the basilisk when possible, or even the oneiros
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Tar Ecthelion
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Posted - 2005.12.13 00:41:00 -
[21]
I've used teh Gaurdian to help corp members out in complexes .. mainly with cap transfer as the remote armour repairers eat a lot of cap.
It does help out a bit, but they should let them use heavy cap transfers and repairers more efficiently, but a gaurdian sitting 30 kms behind a geddon cap and armour transfering makes the geddon a killing machine, and a half decent tanking machine 
.....
de gustibus non est disputandem
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Pistonbroke
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Posted - 2005.12.13 11:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Clavius XIV
John Quicksilver:
Do you find much use for the energy transfer as opposed to the shield transfer? As an experienced logistic pilot in what sorts of situations do you transfer energy?
The energy transfer use is something that I am also interested in.
It seems to me that it is almost impossible to run a decent shield tank that can run in the same way that a decent Armor tank does; i.e. always on. Whilst I appreciate that a B.S. can do this fine if fitted with for example a Large rather than an XL shield booster, this does mean that the capability for taking damage is proportinately reduced.
It strikes me that a single basilisk sending energy to say three shield tanking battleships would mean that they can just leave their boosters in the 'always on' position, rather than juggling on/off (micromanaging cap) it seems probable that the cap would probably stabilise around or just above the magical 1/3 figure.
I am very interested in whether anyone has been able to define if energy transfer is more efficient than shield transfer. on the one hand you can provide a big lump of shield which then has all the resistances applied to it. On the other you provide a big lump of cap which can then provide a shield boost which gives more HP than the cap used, and especially more so if used with a boost amplifier or amplifiers.
Maybe someone with a suitably mathematic brain can look at this (Hello Pottsey?) as it makes my eyes bleed when i think about it too much.
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Calzan
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Posted - 2006.01.17 10:17:00 -
[23]
The transfer rates and efficiencies all depend on the bonuses specific Logistics ships offer. It's always more efficient to go with the highest bonus. Cap. transfer from a Basilisk isn't a waste. Armor transfer is. No bonuses mean it'd be better off shield boosting a naked tank.
The Cap vs. Armor/Shield transfer is an interesting quandry. You free up modules and cap use with armor/shield transfer, but the Cap tranfer is more universaly helpful. I could see the cap transfer being more useful in PVP since everyone needs cap.
Honestly, a support cruiser boosting your main tank on a mission turns it into 'Shake n' Bake'
I've pulled low skilled Cruisers through L3s with only moderate logistics skills. A BS on a lvl 4 is as good as a baby in a womb with a support cruiser around.
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Kookman
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Posted - 2006.01.17 10:45:00 -
[24]
Logistic Cruisers are well worth it.
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Malena
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Posted - 2006.01.17 16:43:00 -
[25]
My buddy and I use a basilisk ALL the time...it makes every mission doable, and we are doing level 4s regularly. In fact, it is usually me, him and another buddy of ours, and without the basilisk each and every mission would take twice as long simply because we would either have to warp out because we can't tank the damage, or because we would have to change our setups to be able to tank the damage.
He uses shield transfers exclusively (tech 2 mediums, I think)along with one remote armor rep, just for an emergency. We have tried it with energy transfers, and even with the bonus the basilisk gets, we found that unless the target was a laser user (none of us are) it wasn't as effective because the issue wasn't how long the tank ran, it was how effective the tank was...so even someone who armor tanks (like me) is helped by the shield transfer because it enables me to either not use the armor rep or just cycle it. PLus the bonus to range for the shield xfer means that we don't have to stick super close as a group.
He is uber btw, with lvl 5 in every relevant skill, including engineering and electronics. (always bragging about it...)I know for sure he has 5 shield transfers, a remote armor rep, a tracking link to help the projectile user, and a shield booster. Not sure what he has in the lows or in the other mids...I am guessing at least one cap recharger and either a PDU or a CPR in the lows. I THINK he changes between another cap recharger and an afterburner depending on the mission, because he also helps with loot collection.
Post-RMR there is a definite tendency for the NPCs to switch targets, even after the aggro would normally have been "pulled". It has gotten to the point where we will have him wait at a planet, or on the outer fringe of his boost range because they will change so quick. After a couple of near losses, he finally decided he would have to sacrifice his cap recharge and put a shield booster on, and that has made quite a difference, because it allows us to nail the stuff that is getting him, rather than having him warp out, and us being nervous about him getting back to us in time. (definitely a factor on multiple stage deadspace missions, or gated complexes)
I have had the opportunity to listen to some well-known PvPers on teamspeak, and because of that, I don't think I would recommend any logistics ship for PvP...they are invariably the second or third target designated (first being the tacklers and HACs) for a couple reasons=expensive, not fully insurable, not a lot of defense, and they can change the face of the battle if they are on defense. (meaning the engaging fleet warps in to the point and the logistic ship already has his buddies locked up and waiting to be boosted)
It also seemed like the sheer volume of fire made even the prodigious output of the tech 2 shield xfers irrelevant. For PvP, a BC with the gang warfare modules would be better I think.
Anyway, just my observations.
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LWMaverick
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Posted - 2006.01.17 16:59:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kookman
Logistic Cruisers are well worth it.
^^ What he said
With great power, comes great responsibility. |
Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2006.01.17 17:10:00 -
[27]
With Logistics 4 and Remote Armor Repair 4, I can easily sustain two medium remote armor reps indefinately with some cap mods with my Oneiros. That's 100hp/s at ~50km. If i start taking fire myself, I'll turn one of the remote reps off and run my own repairer, with HAC resistances.
Dunno about Basilisk, but Im pretty sure it can sustain indefinate medium shield transporting and still run a viable setup.
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Lansfear
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Posted - 2006.01.17 17:21:00 -
[28]
Logistics ships are simply fantastic right now. Just be creative when you're setting up the med slots.
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Encad Briht
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Posted - 2006.01.17 21:08:00 -
[29]
I have a scimitar and i am going to skill for all other Logistics (got nearly the guardian).
It proved itself very useful over the time, i use 3 med t2 Shield transfers and
one named tracking link on it.
I use the fourth slot for a tractor beam.
Atm i can run all three Shield transfer arrays, the tracking link and a named 10 NM AB
at the same time unlimited. I used it a lot in lvl 4 missions and use it sometimes in PvP.
in Lowsec i replace the tracking link with a med Shieldbooster, which gives together
with the natural resistances of the ship a decent tank.
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Lansfear
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Posted - 2006.01.19 19:53:00 -
[30]
The biggest pain with the Oneiros is that you need all med and low slots deditcated to cap recharge or you cant even run 2 Mrar.
The Oneiros needs its Cap reducing bonus atleast doubled.
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