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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
872
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 07:29:00 -
[61] - Quote
Temba Ronin wrote:I am never ashamed to learn something new. Thanks for the pointers.
You're welcome. In my experience there's usually a way to do what you want to in EVE; it's just a question of finding out how and what the limits & requirements are.
Also, the best way to learn to defend is often to learn how to attack (and vice versa). Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Temba Ronin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 07:43:00 -
[62] - Quote
You are correct being Ronin i want to be able to fight way above my weight class which i have not discovered how to do yet in EVE. In all honesty i do not seek to be protected automatically or for free, i just want a chance to come out on top sometimes even against the odds. A single player or a small force should be able to cause some havoc in the settled isk farms of null IMO. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
872
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 08:12:00 -
[63] - Quote
Temba Ronin wrote:You are correct being Ronin i want to be able to fight way above my weight class which i have not discovered how to do yet in EVE. In all honesty i do not seek to be protected automatically or for free, i just want a chance to come out on top sometimes even against the odds. A single player or a small force should be able to cause some havoc in the settled isk farms of null IMO.
But, again, they already can. Go look for the "AFK Cloaker" whinethreads for examples of how.
And at the risk of sounding somewhat self-serving, Angel ships are unsurpassed for hit-and-run fleets. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 08:46:00 -
[64] - Quote
Bryson McRock wrote:MaiLina KaTar wrote:stuff. What if we would change the mechanics of the Rats that if someone is being attacked they change their aggression to the attacker and bring in some more webber/scrambler against him? I mean if I would be a Rat and some dude tries to kill my Target I would get much more aggressed against him than against my well tanked Target which i am already shooting at for long time (yeah I know a little bit RP sorry about that ;)). It just have to be made carefully not that the Logistics getting aggro which are i guess nescessary in L5 missions. edit: ok thats all :) The fundamental problem with this approach (low-/nullsec pockets in highsec space) lies in the fact that the NPCs will DPS either attacker or defender. If you want to keep designing PvE encounters that are challenging and rewarding, that DPS will be significant. So even if NPCs would work the way you suggest, the overall scenario would still be unfair towards either party. You can't solve this problem easily, since you can't make it not unfair unless you remove NPCs from the equation entirely by either making them go inactive or at least stop DPSing. And even if you do that, the defender will still be at a large disadvantage since he'll be facing rigs designed specifically to kill him. This is the reason why you don't find these types of scenarios in decent MMOGs.
Going back to Eve, where isk gain is really all that matters at the end of the day for most players, only fools would take such risks. |
Temba Ronin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 08:48:00 -
[65] - Quote
Very educational .... again my thanks ...... what i hoped to do is supported by game mechanics ..... time to make some alliance people bleed isk |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
872
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 09:19:00 -
[66] - Quote
MaiLina KaTar wrote:Bryson McRock wrote:MaiLina KaTar wrote:stuff. What if we would change the mechanics of the Rats that if someone is being attacked they change their aggression to the attacker and bring in some more webber/scrambler against him? I mean if I would be a Rat and some dude tries to kill my Target I would get much more aggressed against him than against my well tanked Target which i am already shooting at for long time (yeah I know a little bit RP sorry about that ;)). It just have to be made carefully not that the Logistics getting aggro which are i guess nescessary in L5 missions. edit: ok thats all :) The fundamental problem with this approach (low-/nullsec pockets in highsec space) lies in the fact that the NPCs will DPS either attacker or defender. If you want to keep designing PvE encounters that are challenging and rewarding, that DPS will be significant.
No! This idea that the only way to make PvE "challenging" is to add more DPS and hitpoints must go!
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
872
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 09:23:00 -
[67] - Quote
Temba Ronin wrote:Very educational .... again my thanks ...... what i hoped to do is supported by game mechanics ..... time to make some alliance people bleed isk
Be careful - you might attack a group with something between their ears who may try counters more effective than crying on the forums
Use your newfound power to ask how you can do what you want to get some ideas of fittings and tactics.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 12:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
High sec is not really a safe zone, or at least not as it was intended. In many ways null is safer than Hi. If you get ganked in null they have to make it out of the security elements established for the system. 8 of 10 that = fuckzillaed. Get ganked in High? You have kill rights on a desi alt that the owner has less than 0 interest invested in. I was on the phone with a budy earlier who's HiSec alt got suicided mining. No biggie can make a new Hulk running Sanctums in no time. But the game runs on player base. If it was not an alt but was instead a new player taking the indi route he would rage-quit if he had any sense. What somewhere around 60 hours to make back the boat? High is safe if you are an experienced active player. It is potluck if you are just coming into eve. And that is a problem that needs to be fixed. Because that guy who who runs three toons and moved out to the wild blue yonder with you could have just as easily been that guy who rage-quit when he saw his last week's investment dissolve into space dust on a trial account. Bottom line players are the most valuable commodity in eve. Yet the mechanics favor those who have gamed the system over those looking to explore our little sandbox. And that, to me, is a problem. |
Laechyd Eldgorn
draketrain
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 14:13:00 -
[69] - Quote
while incursions probably are great fun for hi sec dwellers they shake economic balance in so many ways. mere requirement of having organized fleet for doing them doesn't make it right that you make loads of easy risk free isk in hi sec.
i see part of problem with hi sec is that low sec isn't lucrative enough (counting out fw plexing which isn't really that interesting to everyone), to pull casual/independent players in there. i think good example is incursions, the day we see hi sec bears running out to do incursions in low sec there's something right out there.
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MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 15:30:00 -
[70] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:MaiLina KaTar wrote:Bryson McRock wrote:MaiLina KaTar wrote:stuff. What if we would change the mechanics of the Rats that if someone is being attacked they change their aggression to the attacker and bring in some more webber/scrambler against him? I mean if I would be a Rat and some dude tries to kill my Target I would get much more aggressed against him than against my well tanked Target which i am already shooting at for long time (yeah I know a little bit RP sorry about that ;)). It just have to be made carefully not that the Logistics getting aggro which are i guess nescessary in L5 missions. edit: ok thats all :) The fundamental problem with this approach (low-/nullsec pockets in highsec space) lies in the fact that the NPCs will DPS either attacker or defender. If you want to keep designing PvE encounters that are challenging and rewarding, that DPS will be significant. No! This idea that the only way to make PvE "challenging" is to add more DPS and hitpoints must go! How?
And before you answer, if you decide to do so: You didn't quote the crucial part. The one that should already tell you why what you're looking for isn't possible without re-designing half the game. |
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DireNecessity
The M.P.I. Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.29 22:21:00 -
[71] - Quote
Two general comments:
1) Making PvE more challenging.
A) At a certain point this gets bloody difficult. Making artificial intelligence programs that can get anywhere near the craftyness of real live human players is a lot to ask of CCP. Only recently did the Watson program win at Jeopardy against a batch of human opponents and all that program had to do was search databases and answer in the form of a question. Unlike like its human opponents, it couldnGÇÖt even walk to the podium. (My apologies for bringing up such a fully American example.) The obscene difficulty of generating challenging AI is one of the reasons computer games just pile on the rats. Humans are smart. Computers are dumb.
B) Its a never ending hamster race to jump on. Mission runners face challenge XXX and pluck away at it until they master it and then state, GÇ£OK GÇô figured that out. Please develop a new set of missions to challenge me.GÇ¥ CCP responds with new mission set XXY and off we go again. Once XXY is mastered the statement is repeated, GÇ£OK GÇô figured that out. Please develop a new set of missions to challenge me,GÇ¥ to which CCP responds with the next mission set XYY. Wash, rinse, repeat. At some point one must expect CCP to throw their hands up in utter despair complaining, GÇ£Good lord son! WeGÇÖve generated a whole wonderful universe for you with tantalizing social interaction and your already requesting mission set YYY? Sure, we'll put YYY on the queue but itGÇÖs going to be a while as other players in the sand box have desires in need of our immediate attention.GÇ¥ My personal feeling is that to keep missioning challenging itGÇÖs in CCPs interest to develop crafty mechanics that begin introducing PvP components in an enticing manner. If done well, this halts the hamster race leaving only balance issues to keep an eye on. Humans are smart, theyGÇÖll challenge each other just fine.
2) What about the noobs?
This too is bloody difficult. EvE is hard, it has no shortage of brutal players and thatGÇÖs long been EvEGÇÖs niche. Couple this with EvEGÇÖs single shard approach and the noobs get thrown into the caldron pretty damn quick. Layer on typical human impatience and despite all the warnings to GÇ£Never fly what you canGÇÖt afford to lose!GÇ¥ few noobs listen. Instead they jump into their newest shiny toy just as soon as they can and get body blow crushed when they lose it. Some noobs get pounded pretty quickly GÇô others merrily dance on the edge of financial disaster for months before an evil vet hand delivers the brutal lesson. Some noobs survive their lessons and flourish in the EvE universe taking their place among the best of the best. Many are washed out. Success in EvE takes intelligence, patience and a thick skin. Would you have it any other way?
DireNecessity
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Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 11:02:00 -
[72] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:DireNecessity wrote:Excellent stuff
Honestly I wasn't thinking of anything more than the fun of racing to complete a mission before the "bad guys" can notice me, probe me and catch me. I've long said that PvE in EVE needs a radical reform to become more 'PvP-like' (fewer, smarter rats, realistic tactics that require points, webs, ECM, etc rather than simply MOAR DEEPEES etc etc). But that's for another Manifesto... Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Incursion rats treat the original PvEers and any interloping PvPers a lot more equally?
I don't know about Incursion rats, but Wormhole rats have behaviour that makes for more interesting PvP engagements.
- Sleepers often switch targets, generally going for the target with the least tank or most dps. This evens out the odds slightly. A PvE 'defender' still has a disadvantage due to being hammered by NPCs prior to a PvP engagement, but the odds aren't stacked as heavily as in traditional missions.
- Modified PvP fits aren't as gimped against sleepers. MWD, webbers, logistics, ECM, spider tanking and balanced fleet composition all have their uses in certain circumstances. That makes a PvE fleet or individual more of a risk to engage.
So it's certainly possible to design NPCs that makes intrusion into a mission or complex more of a risk.
I think the idea of low-security pockets is an interesting one. Low-sec is most dangerous when crossing the hi-sec border or docking, and having quality of life features close to a low-sec pocket could make for a smoother security transition. On the other hand I think pockets like that could end up being some of the most dangerous by themselves, because combining low security with high population tends to be the most risky. We kind of have that already with wormholes, but more variety of the sort could be fun.
Wardecs are broken and thats a shame. In my experience the two parties are usually so incompatible in goals and doctrine that realistically no fights should happen. When fights happen anyway it's usually due to incompetence (new players and corps) or semi-voluntary pvp ("They wardecced us, lets humour them with some fights"). I see this as a conflict of objectives between killboard oriented corps and ISK oriented corps. Killboard oriented corps won't engage in fights or other game content unless the odds are stacked in their favor. ISK oriented corps won't risk their assets for no apparent reason. It's probably hard to fix without artificial objectives specifically designed for war decs, and that goes against the sandbox ideals. |
MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 13:53:00 -
[73] - Quote
Sarina Berghil wrote: - Sleepers often switch targets, generally going for the target with the least tank or most dps. This evens out the odds slightly. A PvE 'defender' still has a disadvantage due to being hammered by NPCs prior to a PvP engagement, but the odds aren't stacked as heavily as in traditional missions. ... I think the idea of low-security pockets is an interesting one. Low-sec is most dangerous when crossing the hi-sec border or docking, and having quality of life features close to a low-sec pocket could make for a smoother security transition. On the other hand I think pockets like that could end up being some of the most dangerous by themselves, because combining low security with high population tends to be the most risky. We kind of have that already with wormholes, but more variety of the sort could be fun.
Nicely put.
It sounds good on paper. In reality, however, I don't think anyone would fly such encounters unless the reward is right up there between absurd and crazy. If you keep the rewards on or near current levels, the frequency of PvP incursions on those missions i.e. the risk would outweigh potential profits by a huge margin. Now if you're looking to make profits in order to fund your PvP... there you have a rather nasty clash of interests. One you can't overcome by reasonable means as long as NPCs remain part of the equation.
Adding to that, if you're trying to encourage people to fly in low- and nullsec, such features would be counter productive. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
901
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 14:00:00 -
[74] - Quote
MaiLina KaTar wrote:Sarina Berghil wrote: - Sleepers often switch targets, generally going for the target with the least tank or most dps. This evens out the odds slightly. A PvE 'defender' still has a disadvantage due to being hammered by NPCs prior to a PvP engagement, but the odds aren't stacked as heavily as in traditional missions. ... I think the idea of low-security pockets is an interesting one. Low-sec is most dangerous when crossing the hi-sec border or docking, and having quality of life features close to a low-sec pocket could make for a smoother security transition. On the other hand I think pockets like that could end up being some of the most dangerous by themselves, because combining low security with high population tends to be the most risky. We kind of have that already with wormholes, but more variety of the sort could be fun.
Nicely put. It sounds good on paper. In reality, however, I don't think anyone would fly such encounters unless the reward is right up there between absurd and crazy. If you keep the rewards on or near current levels, the frequency of PvP incursions on those missions i.e. the risk would outweigh potential profits by a huge margin. Now if you're looking to make profits in order to fund your PvP... there you have a rather nasty clash of interests. One you can't overcome by reasonable means as long as NPCs remain part of the equation. Adding to that, if you're trying to encourage people to fly in low- and nullsec, such features would be counter productive.
Again, I'll reiterate that a mission in a lo-sec deadspace pocket gives the mission-runner some defensive and counter-attacking options that wouldn't be available in hi-sec. Being able to use smartbombs and ECM bursts is the least of it. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 14:38:00 -
[75] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Again, I'll reiterate that a mission in a lo-sec deadspace pocket gives the mission-runner some defensive and counter-attacking options that wouldn't be available in hi-sec. Being able to use smartbombs and ECM bursts is the least of it.
These options are available to both parties so when you're looking at it from the risk:reward point of view they cancel each other out. Even if being attacked on these missions means you're going to have to burst and run, the profit is still gone. This isn't a problem in lowsec where the frequency of incursions is low enough to be a manageable factor and you have the added benefit of being alerted to enemy presence immediately. In highsec you'll have dozens or even hundreds of people in your system. So unless you're brave enough to keep hammering that dscan you're going to get ganked, a lot. And no matter what you do, your cashflow is going to get hurt, which is not acceptable if making cash is your primary concern. |
Thredd Necro
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.01 17:28:00 -
[76] - Quote
Dumping security designations like high-sec, null-sec, low-sec and just having a grade system that radiates out from civilization centers sounds great.
So do patrols rather than too many static units.
Eve can use quite a few tweaks and twiddles to be sure, but the idea of enticing/pushing/forcing/punishing high-seccers into lower sec areas and into higher levels of pvp is just bad business and fights the nature of a species the majority of which wishes to survive and procreate which is why they create governments and military forces and police forces in the first place...and try NOT to fight wars...and build cities that are mostly safe, not places for gangs to land helicopters and loot walmart at gunpoint and fly away or dogfight over central park with live ammo.
Just because some of the player base, (regardless of percentage), embraces their inner droog, (clockwork orange), doesn't mean most of CCPs potential player base will, in fact it's highly unlikely they would.
Sell the advantages of going to lower sec areas. People like advantages.
If there aren't any you shouldn't expect people to go there.
EVE is a game. People want to be entertained. Sell the entertainment in lower security areas.
If there isn't any you shouldn't expect people to go there.
"Leave New York and come to Somalia!!! You'll LOVE it here..."
People basically want to change "Welcome to New York" to "Welcome to Somalia" and then complain about the poor tourist trade and how few people want to business there.
People are basically complaining that the risk/reward ratio is worse in Somalia than it is in New York.
Of course it is...
Humans as a group DO NOT LIKE the wild, wild, west. Humans as a species like to pick their fights as much as possible. Carebears run most modern civilizations now and there is no reason to think they won't in the next ten thousand years. Most humans would much rather be Bill Gates than Vladimir Putin. Try starting from that position and deal with the realities of human thought processes. It will make game changes much easier to filter through.
That said, there's a number of good ideas in this thread. Keep going! |
tengen san
Triton-TC
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:06:00 -
[77] - Quote
We like it, the content of the OP, as it not only respond to the status quo but also provides a roadmap for the next years of this game to come. Adjustments need to be made once there is population growth, considering (hopefully) there will be 75k -100k active players in the game; the present high sec. system has reached its usability and worked for the time being. With the thought through OP as exception, most requests on game change I read here mirrors short sighted on the status quo. GÇ£My game playGÇ¥ isnGÇÖt just the one of the actual players but the one for future player as well.
Inevitable, the game WILL become more of a social network, foremost in, but not limited to high sec., with the ability to enter any challenge the game content providers. The paradigm change of high sec., as requested by many others must reflect on a growing in game population if its sustainability shall remain intact.
Keep it on. |
Dervinus
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 18:39:00 -
[78] - Quote
Great post OP. This thread needs more upvotes |
Orien Ardent
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 17:46:00 -
[79] - Quote
Good ideas in this thread.
One thing that is really weird to me is that there is no difference between security status in hight sec. Would like to see the security grade ideas implemented. |
Orakkus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 18:54:00 -
[80] - Quote
I like a lot of these ideas as well.
What do you think of perhaps improving the bounty payout of level 3 missions, moving level 4/5 missions out to low-sec, but also drastically increase the number of hi-sec incursions (hopefully, more than just the Sansha will figure out how to do this)? |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1053
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 19:00:00 -
[81] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:I like a lot of these ideas as well.
What do you think of perhaps improving the bounty payout of level 3 missions, moving level 4/5 missions out to low-sec, but also drastically increase the number of hi-sec incursions (hopefully, more than just the Sansha will figure out how to do this)?
I make a post advocating returning level 5s to hi-sec and you ask me about moving level 4s to lo-sec?
What I'd like is for 1-5 missions to be available in hi-sec, but for the reward of each mission to be properly reflected in the risk, whether by increasing the PvP potential, or by making the mission inherently riskier or more difficult. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Orakkus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 19:11:00 -
[82] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I make a post advocating returning level 5s to hi-sec and you ask me about moving level 4s to lo-sec? What I'd like is for 1-5 missions to be available in hi-sec, but for the reward of each mission to be properly reflected in the risk, whether by increasing the PvP potential, or by making the mission inherently riskier or more difficult.
Well, to be fair to yourself, that was only one part of your post.
And really, what I am suggesting is quite inline with your goal quoted as being, " there need to be opportunities for high-risk, high reward gameplay within hi-sec". You suggested achieving this with moving Level 5 missions into hi-sec. I suggested achieving the very same thing using Incursions.
And that is why I wanted to see your technical rebuttal about why it could or couldn't work. The rest of your post I believe firmly that you are right on the money. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1058
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 07:20:00 -
[83] - Quote
I have posted an expanded idea about the bounty hunting system in the assembly hall. I can't link it here because of forum. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:27:00 -
[84] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Introduction:
(4) "Commercial" players. These guys are often highly skilled, highly experienced players, who make vast amounts of ISK in invention, research, industry. They operate in empire because the facilities are vastly superior to lo-sec and null (free concord protection, trade hubs, superior stations, many, many more stations, asset safety etc etc). They're not necessarily ideologically comitted to being in hi-sec, it's just a vastly more profitable area to operate.
You've obviously never done this and so, have no ******* clue what you are talking about.
The work far outweighs the reward for this. The more work you put in the less it actually pays off because markets get flooded so easily.
Honestly, talk about **** you know about - 0.0. You're talking out your ass and gleaning a few small perceived "facts" from what you read on forums or come across by hearsay. As it is the industry sector has had no love from ccp for quite some time. The work to profit equations are hugely high.
Mining is all but dead for players to take part in thanks to botters and RMT. CCP has done jack **** about that.
t2 production cannot be done en-mass and each job done laboriously one at a time. Then even if one completely finishes a job, the wheeling and dealing of market entanglements, distribution or profit sharing have to be engaged. Add to that risks of suicide gankers and other pressures from aforementioned mining killers - the RMTers, then you have a small idea of what it's like to produce t2.
You sir are a buffoon and I hope the community can see through your uneducated views. You obviously just belong to a large alliance who have blue'd too many people and must now declare war on empire as a way to refresh your targets.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1074
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:34:00 -
[85] - Quote
INITdot are indeed well known for the length of our blue list. I can only congratulate you on being the first to penetrate my cunning deception, and also for your use of meticulously referenced facts and figures to dismantle the subtle web of lies I have woven.
Your prize will be contracted to you this evening. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:48:00 -
[86] - Quote
Well you say yourself that you don't live in empire.
You say empire should be changed this way and that way and these guys are all rich and making squillions of isk while we labor out in 0.0 eeking together our meagre incomes.
Fact is it's the other way around. If some guy is making huge amounts of isk in empire doing mining or t2 production, leave the poor bastard alone. He has enough woes.
If you can't handle that, sorry.
I have a full POS t2 production facility in empire. Due to market constraints and various other issues, it makes a profit but nothing sizeable considering the effort required.
Each month it costs 350m to run a large pos in empire. Lots of people have a large because anchoring a large is smarter than a small if you don't hvae the standings yourself for anchoring.
So each month I have to make AT LEAST 350m.
Let's assume I have to make ... cap rechargers? (which are one of my favs due to the profits).
JUST TO MAKE FUEL, i have to make 700 cap recharger II's.
Let's further assume I have all the materials on hand.
I have to make 70 t2 bpc's.
Each one takes 13 hours or so to ATTEMPT to make. so I have to continually relog to start a new batch.
So let's see at 10 jobs for a toon to make 10 bpc's It's 13 hours, so this month it will take 2 weeks just to cover tower costs. (Given that I'm a .. carebear who has no life or anything) I login each day for a week just to cover the costs of the tower.
Now if you've never seen the t2 interface, that's about 15 clicks per job to start the job, find any named products that might increase your base 50% chance and the specific module and slot that you want the job to go into.
Now add to that market costs, hauling time, not to mention I don't have the 15 different parts I need on hand all the time and have to go shopping around the entire region IN A HAULER picking them up. And any jump I go through could be my last due to a suicide ganker out for a lark.
You're telling me now that I should also add to that ship losses because you're bored?
**** you kid.
0.0 alliance leaders and station owners are making far more than anyone in empire.
WTF are you talking about ?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1074
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:50:00 -
[87] - Quote
Revolution Rising wrote: WTF are you talking about ?
I'm starting to wonder if you actually meant to reply to another thread.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1074
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 15:56:00 -
[88] - Quote
(Because the things you're ranting about don't seem to bear any relationship to what I'm advocating)
(calm down, use some quotes, dial back the ranting a bit, and ask a coherent question if you don't want to me to point and laugh at you) Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2011.11.11 15:57:00 -
[89] - Quote
Quote: For the carebears, I honestly have no ideas. The psychology of being emotionally invested in your ship to such an extent that you won't accept losing it for any reason is so foreign to what I believe EVE is about that I can't think of a good way to integrate that lifestyle into a fully connected, single shard PvP game with a player driven economy. Let's just hope that there aren't really as many of these guys as we fear, and that most of the people in hi-sec aren't quite so risk averse as we're led to believe.
Don't think so.
Increasing risk in hi-sec in any way for guys producing t2 or mining is completely ridiculous.
Being a "carebear" is a valid way of playing eve and more strength to them.
The psychology that empire needs fixing to get people into 0.0 is actually wrong. What you need is easier industry so that people in empire don't have to spend as much time doing what they do - then they might spend that time doing something else.
At present everyone is hampered by RMT/Botters. Until that changes many facets of the game are painful for everyone involved.
The game is less playable and just about wars that don't mean anything because the value of isk is so low in reality that ship losses don't matter as much.
This is the real issue. Until people that want to fix empire get that, any increase to risk in empire will be unsatisfactory.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1074
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Posted - 2011.11.11 16:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
Revolution Rising wrote:The psychology that empire needs fixing to get people into 0.0 is actually wrong.
Man, if only someone would post a manifesto based on that very idea. How awesome that would be, they could get like a hundred likes and CSM support for the idea, and people from every part of EVE would comment and support it.
But then some people wouldn't read it properly, see one line that they misinterpret and flip out over, and then hilariously mischaracterise the OP in order to start a huge rant against their own misunderstanding of what's being suggested. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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