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Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
18
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Posted - 2013.07.22 11:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've mainly be passive shield tanking in my pvp so far and been losing badly
I want to know if passive tanking is viable in pvp or will I have to go train for active tanking?
Its active or nothing isn't it? |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
OLD MAN GANG
538
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Posted - 2013.07.22 11:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
no |
Trinkets friend
T.R.I.A.D
1056
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Posted - 2013.07.22 11:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
yes. You can make a passive Harpy for solo or (in a pinch) bait-tanking a couple of T1 frigs. Three at most.
For T1 hauler PVP you can also set up a Mammoth that cannot be beaten by any other hauler.
Aside from that...the odd Rattlesnake fit with stupid pimp does well. There's a couple of killmails with 1.2 to 1.8 million damage taken on passive Rattlers.
But aside from these 3 situations and a couple of others that elude me right now...no.
Indigently pwning indifferently. Some sucker buy me a Naglfar.
http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
1158
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Posted - 2013.07.22 11:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
If by Passive you mean shield relay thingamagigs no.
If by passive you mean Buffer tanking, yes.
BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
18
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 11:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:If by Passive you mean shield relay thingamagigs no.
If by passive you mean Buffer tanking, yes.
I mean Shield Extenders and Shield Power Relays |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1236
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 11:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Generally getting a good tank to be able to deal with a player blasting you takes too many slots.
You may find you will die before a buffer with less slots used does, or where a ASB/active setup would.
Out side the rattlesnake, i wouldnt consider a passive regen setup on anything.
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kraiklyn Asatru
T.R.I.A.D
304
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 11:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Then mostly, except for some niche purposes, no.
PvP mainly involves short fights with high incoming DPS
Unless you know that your ship is going to be attacked by 20 HODOR barges ahead of time :') |
Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
18
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 11:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Generally getting a good tank to be able to deal with a player blasting you takes too many slots.
You may find you will die before a buffer with less slots used does, or where a ASB/active setup would.
Out side the rattlesnake, i wouldnt consider a passive regen setup on anything.
then how am I supposed to survice long enough to kill the other guy?
All the other times I surive long enough to attack the enemy they just regenerate their shields/armour while I'm still trying to engage them.
And if passive tanking is not worth it in pvp? why have it at all. |
Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
18
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 11:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:Then mostly, except for some niche purposes, no.
PvP mainly involves short fights with high incoming DPS
Unless you know that your ship is going to be attacked by 20 HODOR barges ahead of time :')
what do we define as 'high'?
my standard condor set up only gives about 45-50 dps.
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1236
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 11:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:Generally getting a good tank to be able to deal with a player blasting you takes too many slots.
You may find you will die before a buffer with less slots used does, or where a ASB/active setup would.
Out side the rattlesnake, i wouldnt consider a passive regen setup on anything. then how am I supposed to survice long enough to kill the other guy? All the other times I surive long enough to attack the enemy they just regenerate their shields/armour while I'm still trying to engage them. And if passive tanking is not worth it in pvp? why have it at all.
Im surprised you quoted my post and then asked a question that i have already addressed in that very post.
Why do you expect passive recharge tanking to be good for pvp?
Passive recharge tanking was born in lvl 4 missions, where you have a long steady fight and only one goal - to kill the rats. This is no problem while you have the slots to do it.
In pvp, you will encounter: Tackling, speed, cap warefare, EW, dps from all types of weapons and doing all sorts of resistant type damage.
So right from the start you will need two mid slots used up for propulsion and a warp disruptor, then optionally web, energy neuts/vamps while fitting a tank.
A good burst tank or a flat out maximum number of hitpoints is what you should be aiming for, and obviously doing as much dps as possible!
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Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
18
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Posted - 2013.07.22 12:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:Generally getting a good tank to be able to deal with a player blasting you takes too many slots.
You may find you will die before a buffer with less slots used does, or where a ASB/active setup would.
Out side the rattlesnake, i wouldnt consider a passive regen setup on anything. then how am I supposed to survice long enough to kill the other guy? All the other times I surive long enough to attack the enemy they just regenerate their shields/armour while I'm still trying to engage them. And if passive tanking is not worth it in pvp? why have it at all. Im surprised you quoted my post and then asked a question that i have already addressed in that very post. Why do you expect passive recharge tanking to be good for pvp? Passive recharge tanking was born in lvl 4 missions, where you have a long steady fight and only one goal - to kill the rats. This is no problem while you have the slots to do it. In pvp, you will encounter: Tackling, speed, cap warefare, EW, dps from all types of weapons and doing all sorts of resistant type damage. So right from the start you will need two mid slots used up for propulsion and a warp disruptor, then optionally web, energy neuts/vamps while fitting a tank. A good burst tank or a flat out maximum number of hitpoints is what you should be aiming for, and obviously doing as much dps as possible!
so to have any chance at pvp I need to equibe shield boasters (I assume that what you mean by burst tank) and I though shield extenders were what worked for enlarging hit points.
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1236
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 12:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Buffer = lots of hit points and good resistances
Active tank = good resistance and a repping module ASB, shield booster, armor repair + rigs to boost their effectivness/resistances
Burst tank = average to low resistances, generally not cap stable, large fast repair amount
In each case you have ehp, effective hit points. You compare what you are capable of in each case and decide what works best. If a buffer tank has 100k ehp and your burst tank only has 30k but can repair 100k hit points worth of damage in 2 minutes, you have to decide if you would rather have the hit points to start with, or gamble with the active burst tank which may do more damage.
certain ships lean towards one of these types of tanks, for ease here are some examples:
Abandon = lots of armor plating and general resistance mods
myrmidon = active tank
Cyclone = very high burst tank
Drake = can have a buffer or active shields, most lean toward buffer.
you can then tweak your fitting to your fighting style and never forget that dead things do no damage to you, so try and get as much dps from your ship as possible without wasting slots (dont fit more than 3 damage mods for example)
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Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
346
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Posted - 2013.07.22 12:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
To be fair, ill say after the ASB got in play, its nearly imposible to fly passive shield and speciel solo.
(Drake and Talos mabe)
I use to favor the passive hurricane and with huge success, but now, if you engage anything, the time you often needed to burn down decent target have changed so much. Everyone seems to run the ASBs now and in most cases dual ASBs, so you more often melt before taking Down your oponent.
In the past at least you could neut them, and hope you delivered enough DPS to burn your oponent down in time.
Today, I can only see passive shield Work in fleets with Logi support
Nisroc Angels
Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
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Job Valador
Super Moose Defence Force
123
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Posted - 2013.07.22 12:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
My brother made a monster drake who had a passive regen of730 .. however he lives in a pulsar c3 and only does a piddly 180 damage.
It's kinda funny, not one person solo has been able too kill him because of it and has never been able too kill them xD
"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement." |
Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel
Templis Dragonaors
236
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Posted - 2013.07.22 12:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Job Valador wrote:My brother made a monster drake who had a passive regen of730 .. however he lives in a pulsar c3 and only does a piddly 180 damage.
It's kinda funny, not one person solo has been able too kill him because of it and has never been able too kill them xD
Well, a brick Drake can have its uses. I recall a seriously cheesed-off Cyclone/Hurricane duo that couldn't come close to knocking me off in a passive-recharge-maximized Drake; of course, I didn't have the sort of damage one would need to fight them off, but then, I just wanted to get clear of them, not kill them.
They also make pretty decent bait ships (I recall the singleton Drake in Pynekastoh that had a cyno in its utility high, and called in about 35 tier-3 BC's to wax our seven cruisers), and can serve as cheap command ships.
"Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred..."
- Niccolo Machiavelli-á |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
299
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Posted - 2013.07.22 12:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
I think people are being a bit dismissive a bit too quickly.
There used to be a passive shield myrmidon that was a beastly tank - not sure if it still works with changes but worth a look.
Also if you know an opponents damage type, there's probably a lot of situations where you could change to a passive resists fit to help you win. I'd imagine a well fit passive drake could be setup to beat a deimos for example with this (and neuts/nos).
In general though yeah some active elements of tank are almost always better than passive resists. |
Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
18
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 12:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Oh yes I'm talking more about the frigate end of pvp. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
2914
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Posted - 2013.07.22 17:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'll try to be a good samaritan here and help.
Paul Otichoda wrote:I've mainly be passive shield tanking in my pvp so far and been losing badly
I want to know if passive tanking is viable in pvp or will I have to go train for active tanking?
Its active or nothing isn't it?
It depends.
Passive shield tanking would be somewhat ok for pure 1v1s. As long as you are SURE that your hp per second gain (factored with your resistances) is higher than your opponent's damage per second you can last almost indefinitely as the tank itself draws very little capacitor power.
The problem with pure passive tanking though is that this style cuts down your available capacitor power (both in regeneration and capacity) and requires a fair amount of slots to gain any appreciable amount of hp/sec... gimping your ship overall.
Active tanking has some similarities to passive tanking... except pure (and proper) active tanking is extremely capacitor intensive and favors raw hp/sec over "efficiency." This leaves active tanking particularly susceptible to energy neutralizers and "endurance" battles.
In addition; active tanks tend to not have much "buffer" (see: raw HP) making them very vulnerable to high volley strikes (ex. artillery platforms).
Both passive and active style also have one other weakness in common; against an opponent (or multiple) whose DPS is above your ability to repair... you go down VERY quickly.
Buffer tanks are where you just load up resistances and raw HP. Nothing else matters besides getting a large amount of EHP (Effective Hit Points).
The benefits of this tanking style are that; it tends to be the least taxing on your capacitor power compared to other tanking styles, it has resistance to high volley strikes, and will often outlast an active tank when there is lots of incoming DPS (as your opponents have to chew through all your HP rather than just overcome hp/sec).
Finally... there is a fourth "unofficial" method of tanking; "Speed Tanking."
It'd take too long to explain in full detail (as I'd have to explain missile and turret tracking mechanics) but I'll give you the gist of it; it's the act of flying so fast relative to your target that their weapons can't track and/or apply damage very well. This style is the only one that can effectively be used in conjunction with the other, more well known, tanking styles.
Now... before I go any further... understand something; there is no all-round BEST tank. Each of these styles have their advantages and disadvantages. The trick is to use the right tanking style for the right scenario. In PvP... this means you must manipulate and maneuver around certain situations and opportunities to get the most out of your tank.
Some examples:
- A dual-tanked Breecher or Incursus can regenerate a large amount of hp/sec. Combined with their small size and decent DPS numbers, this makes them deadly in a close range brawl.
However... because they are active-tanked they have little in the way of raw hp. A single volley from an artillery Thrasher or Wolf will be able to blast right through any potential reps and prematurely end the active tankers.
- With some very good skills (and liberal application of powergrid enhancement rigs) a Tristan can fit a 400mm armor plate and beef itself up to about 7000+ EHP. This is well above what most other frigates can get (average is around 3000 to 4000).
With this amount of EHP you can't be "one-shotted" by Thrashers and Wolfs anymore... neuts don't bother you too much... and you can longer against concentrated fire than if you were relying on hp regeneration.
However, because you can't repair any damage you do incur (shields being the exception) you will often find yourself docking up and repairing after each fight.
Paul Otichoda wrote:what do we define as 'high'?
my standard condor set up only gives about 45-50 dps.
"High" DPS at the frigate level is somewhere in the range of 100 to 200+
Repping 45 to 50 DPS would be okay as long as it is not your primary means of defense (hint: use speed and range).
Now... with regards to that Caracal you lost...
- HAMs are not particularly good against small targets. Frigates especially. Think of them as short range anti-destroyer, anti-cruiser+ weapons. Rapid Light Missile Launchers are far more effective at taking out frigates. Heavy Missile Launchers can be used in a pinch too if you want extra range and added "punch" (as the cost of anti-frigate effectiveness).
- Micro Auxiliary Power cores may have served you well at the frigate level... but they aren't terribly effective at the Cruiser level (they give a "set" PG boost which is a drop in the bucket for a cruiser). You want to be looking at Power Diagnostics and Reactor Controls (they give up a percentage of CPU for a larger percentage of PG).
Don't be too hard on yourself over this one. I did the same thing when I was new. 
- your overall fit isn't too bad outside of what I have pointed out above. Personally though... I'd focus more on squeezing out as much speed as possible on that cruiser (there are other cruisers that are MUCH better at brawling).
- (expanding from the last point) If you run solo, you'll be doing a lot of "running" fights and you want to try and avoid being pinned down for any appreciable amount of time. Identify any ships that are known as "close range" fighters as they will most likely be equipped with a scram (which is no bueno for you).
- This is a "process" game. Don't take your losses or lack of "improvement" personally. Some things will come faster than others. Approach each situation that went wrong as your fault and work back from there ("Did I engage the wrong target?" "What I prepared for that situation?" "Was I fitted properly for that situation?").
- This is a multi-player game. Who your friends and allies are and how many you have often counts a lot more than personal wealth and power.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
117
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 21:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Passive tanking is, in many situations, non-ideal for PvP. Start working with buffer fits until you get a firm grasp on your own engagement capabilities. |
Valatie
Blue Sun Privateers
3
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Posted - 2013.07.22 21:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
For frigate pvp buffer shield tank (one mse/shield extender rigs) is perfectly viable, but if you go overboard you'll die to folks who have more balanced fits. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
87
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Posted - 2013.07.25 02:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Full list of ships that can be successfully passive tanked in PVP:
Gila
(Maybe an oddly-fit Myrm) |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
2925
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 05:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
And the Rattlesnake. I loved my old-school 400+ raw hp/sec regen setup. With sentries, it was the ultimate afk-boat. *sigh*
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
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