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Blue on blue attacks - Diana Kim, Pyre Falcon, The Republic, The Federation

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Shintoko Akahoshi The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 286	Posted - 2013.07.24 18:05:00 - [1] - Quote I've split this out from Pyre Falcon's AAR detailing Diana Kim's attacks on State Militia pilots to avoid derailing their thread more than it is. Here we go: Stitcher wrote: The difference is that EM have expressed remorse, reluctance, and the hope never to find themselves in such a situation ever again. I don't think you understand my motivations in condemning the Republic's attack at Colelie and calling for a cessation of the Federation-Republic alliance. I don't care about feelings or intentions. I care about deeds. The Republic attacked the Federation, despite the existence of the alliance between our two governments. I can see no indication that they won't do so again should the mood strike them. Because of this, I would like to see the Federation-Republic alliance dissolved. In my opinion, this would both provide the strongest political statement to Shakor outside of a declaration of war (which, for the record, I don't support at this time), while also forcing a reevaluation of Federation defenses along the Federation-Republic border which could help prevent such an incursion in the future. I have perhaps picked on EM more than other participants, but that is because I have both supported them and flown with them in the past, which lends their deeds that much more bitterness. I recognize that some of their pilots feel remorse for their part in the attack. I recognize that they may hope to never find themselves in such a situation again. At the same time, EM leadership has stated that they participated in the attack because they had a duty to do so, and that they would continue to act that way in the future. The only real difference I can see between EM's and Diana Kim's actions are that EM expressed regret after pulling that trigger, while Diana Kim did not. Both attacked allies on the orders of their superiors (real or imagined), and both stated their intention to do so again should the orders come. Andrea Okazon wrote: And how many times did you pull the trigger on your own people, let alone their allies, as a member of Pyre? And did you do so for any principle at all other than a thick wallet? I'm not sure how this is an issue, but what the hell. During my tenure with Pyre (in which my motivation was thickening my wallet, I make no claims otherwise), I pulled the trigger on eleven pilots. Two of them were Gallente. How is this different from what the Republic did in Colelie? Simple. When I flew with Pyre, I would show up on the overview of all of those pilots as hostile. They knew I was hostile the minute I showed up. I did not try to pretend otherwise. To behave as the Republic behaved, I would have had to join the Gallente (or the Minmatar) militias and then pull the trigger on those very same pilots. I would have had to show up on their metaphorical doorstep, cloaked in the blue raiment of an ally, and then pull the trigger. Honestly, it's as if some people don't even try. Bio and writing
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine 1261	Posted - 2013.07.24 18:35:00 - [2] - Quote Consider the scale involved, too. The crew of a single Moros class dreadnought runs into the tens of thousands whilst the ships you destroyed in Black Rise have single digit crews. There isn't even a near reciprocity of scale.
DutchGunner Emphebion Emperium 30	Posted - 2013.07.24 18:41:00 - [3] - Quote Miss Tuulinen, I believe some editing might be in order. As for the tension between the Federation and Republic, I believe that you are correct on the relation between the Federation and the Republic is tense at the best of current times. However as I was a witness from the event, I would like to add that the Naglfar's commander was rather clear from start untill the end. They wanted the shooter and would resolve to violence if opposed. They met opposition, and despite the many pleas, they followed up on their words and attacked. That, in my views, would not be acting friendly and suddenly starting an assault. Regards, DutchGunner CONCORD Loyalist
Andrea Okazon Alexylva Paradox 94	Posted - 2013.07.24 18:53:00 - [4] - Quote Shintoko Akahoshi wrote: I How is this different from what the Republic did in Colelie? Simple. When I flew with Pyre, I would show up on the overview of all of those pilots as hostile. They knew I was hostile the minute I showed up. I did not try to pretend otherwise. To behave as the Republic behaved, I would have had to join the Gallente (or the Minmatar) militias and then pull the trigger on those very same pilots. I would have had to show up on their metaphorical doorstep, cloaked in the blue raiment of an ally, and then pull the trigger. Honestly, it's as if some people don't even try. Well, no one could fault you for lack of trying, but I'm baffled as to how you could think I would give a sous. You fired on Gallente crews as a representative of a nation at war with the Federation. Then you went and fired on Minmatar crews as a representative of a nation at war with the Republic and which expressly seeks their utter destruction. And then you claim you don't care about feelings or intentions, only deeds. Which is just as well, because on feelings and intentions you come up well short. On deeds, you are merely down in the muck with the rest of us. The Electus Matari pilots I've flown and fought beside fight for freedom, and you fight for a buck. It's not even close, and I know who my allies are whatever their nationality.
Shintoko Akahoshi The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 288	Posted - 2013.07.24 19:14:00 - [5] - Quote Andrea Okazon wrote: (Ad hominem arguments, followed by...) The Electus Matari pilots I've flown and fought beside fight for freedom Let's stay on target, shall we? I don't know how it is in the Republic, but Federation schools teach that ad hominem arguments are fallacious in nature. Tell me, then, please, how the battle of Colelie was about freedom? Whose freedom? The freedom of the people who were killed in the battle? Bio and writing
Anja Suorsa Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine 111	Posted - 2013.07.24 19:42:00 - [6] - Quote DutchGunner wrote: Miss Tuulinen I laughed.
Andrea Okazon Alexylva Paradox 94	Posted - 2013.07.24 19:49:00 - [7] - Quote Shintoko Akahoshi wrote: Andrea Okazon wrote: (Ad hominem arguments, followed by...) The Electus Matari pilots I've flown and fought beside fight for freedom Let's stay on target, shall we? I don't know how it is in the Republic, but Federation schools teach that ad hominem arguments are fallacious in nature. Tell me, then, please, how the battle of Colelie was about freedom? Whose freedom? The freedom of the people who were killed in the battle? Pointing out hypocrisy is not an ad hominem. No, really, it's not, you should read more carefully what the definition is -- many people are honestly confused on this point. To say "Shintoko believes I should not trust people who have aggressed against Gallente navy ships. Shintoko has aggressed against Gallente navy ships. Therefore, by her logic, Shintoko's opinions are not to be trusted and we ought to give them no weight," is not a fallacious argument. In any case, I'm getting tired of this argument. It only came up because of the usual race-baiting towards Ms. Rella for what was admittedly an impulsive interjection.
Sorjat Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2013.07.24 20:11:00 - [8] - Quote Shintoko Akahoshi wrote: The Republic attacked the Federation, despite the existence of the alliance between our two governments. I can see no indication that they won't do so again should the mood strike them. Because of this, I would like to see the Federation-Republic alliance dissolved. A declaration of war from the Federal Senate?? And there I was thinking that the funniest folks in the galaxy were the Amarrians... At best you might get the Federal Senate to agree to form a sub-committee to set a date for another committee to review events as a prelude to a committee to begin researching events to decide whether or not the matter should even be brought to the floor of the Senate... If of course the 'investigation' could get that far before being dismissed for not having been procedurally correct or exceeding its mandate. In short, there is as much chance of a formal Declaration of War from the Federation as there is of Tibus Heth being reinstated as State Executor. That being said, the 'alliance', warts and all... will remain precisely as it is. The unwritten part of the agreement is quite simple. The Minmatar reserve the 'right' to attack the Federation for any flimsy excuse or mood swing... and the Federation reserves the right to send any invading Minmatar fleet into the space-debris orbit around Colelie along with the rest of their kin. Paradoxically, while the Senate is pleased with this win-win arrangement it's the Gallente capsuleer community that seem most disturbed by it.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine 1262	Posted - 2013.07.24 20:18:00 - [9] - Quote Anja Suorsa wrote: DutchGunner wrote: Miss Tuulinen I laughed. I always said that Concord's sight was blinkered...
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 501	Posted - 2013.07.24 20:45:00 - [10] - Quote Shintoko Akahoshi wrote: The only real difference I can see between EM's and Diana Kim's actions are that EM expressed regret after pulling that trigger, while Diana Kim did not. Both attacked allies on the orders of their superiors (real or imagined), and both stated their intention to do so again should the orders come. EM are tribals, it is their habit to whack each other head for stupid reasons. And I am just a soldier and I am doing my job. I destroy those, who oppose the State, those, who work with Federation and those, who will stand on my way. I won't let enemies hide from retribution behind the label of supposedly "blue" pilots. It was their decision to become enemies. And they will be dealt with as enemies. With fire and steel. D. Kim, Wing Cmdr.
Evi Polevhia True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators 264	Posted - 2013.07.24 20:48:00 - [11] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Anja Suorsa wrote: DutchGunner wrote: Miss Tuulinen I laughed. I always said that Concord's sight was blinkered... And here I was thinking you got married but didn't invite me.
Shintoko Akahoshi The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 288	Posted - 2013.07.24 21:08:00 - [12] - Quote Andrea Okazon wrote: No, really, it's not, you should read more carefully what the definition is -- many people are honestly confused on this point. To say "Shintoko believes I should not trust people who have aggressed against Gallente navy ships. Shintoko has aggressed against Gallente navy ships. Therefore, by her logic, Shintoko's opinions are not to be trusted and we ought to give them no weight," is not a fallacious argument. Sure, but what I'm saying is actually "I believe we should not trust allies who attack us". Which is what happened. Perhaps this is merely a difference in culture. Perhaps you simply don't see a problem with one ally attacking another. I do, and I suspect a decent number of my fellow Federation citizens do as well. Sorjat wrote: Shintoko Akahoshi wrote: The Republic attacked the Federation, despite the existence of the alliance between our two governments. I can see no indication that they won't do so again should the mood strike them. Because of this, I would like to see the Federation-Republic alliance dissolved. A declaration of war from the Federal Senate?? And there I was thinking that the funniest folks in the galaxy were the Amarrians... I see what you did there. Here's that last sentence again in full, emphasis added: Shintoko Akahoshi wrote: I would like to see the Federation-Republic alliance dissolved. In my opinion, this would both provide the strongest political statement to Shakor outside of a declaration of war (which, for the record, I don't support at this time) Bio and writing
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine 1263	Posted - 2013.07.24 21:40:00 - [13] - Quote Evi Polevhia wrote: Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Anja Suorsa wrote: DutchGunner wrote: Miss Tuulinen I laughed. I always said that Concord's sight was blinkered... And here I was thinking you got married but didn't invite me. That did happen, but that still wouldn't make me Miss Tuulinen, would it? Even my wife, Desiderya Tuulinen-haani isn't Miss Tuulinen. This whole things seems to be a Miss-take.
Makoto Priano Priano Trans-Stellar State Services 1522	Posted - 2013.07.24 21:50:00 - [14] - Quote Pieter, that's a terrible, terrible play on words, and you should apologize to everyone. As to the rest, I don't feel like I'm at liberty to comment on anyone's motives in this. However, I do wonder at the phrase 'fighting for freedom.' Ms. Okazon, what is freedom to you, and what makes it superior to the ideals of others? We all fight for our ideals, or for self-interest, or for our compatriots; what makes your ideal superior to all others?
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1886	Posted - 2013.07.24 22:40:00 - [15] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: That did happen, but that still wouldn't make me Miss Tuulinen, would it? Even my wife, Desiderya Tuulinen-haani isn't Miss Tuulinen. This whole things seems to be a Miss-take. Did I Miss something here? Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations
Makoto Priano Priano Trans-Stellar State Services 1531	Posted - 2013.07.24 22:41:00 - [16] - Quote Agh.
Caellach Marellus Aideron Technologies 1061	Posted - 2013.07.25 02:55:00 - [17] - Quote I'm sure Pieter will issue a miss-ive to all concerned clarifying the situation. As to the main discussion, people need to read what's being said, not having strawman arguments in their head with points they can deflate. Enjoy your gaming. http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1891	Posted - 2013.07.25 03:04:00 - [18] - Quote Caellach Marellus wrote: I'm sure Pieter will issue a miss-ive to all concerned clarifying the situation. As to the main discussion, people need to read what's being said, not having strawman arguments in their head with points they can deflate. You can't fault people too much for Miss-interpreting what's being said. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations
Shintoko Akahoshi The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative 290	Posted - 2013.07.25 07:26:00 - [19] - Quote Oniseki, is this some sort of personal miss-ion for you? Bio and writing
Karmilla Strife Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD 103	Posted - 2013.07.25 07:52:00 - [20] - Quote That's what happens when you make an IGS thread about Miss-takes.
Laria Raven Stillwater Corporation 37	Posted - 2013.07.25 11:25:00 - [21] - Quote I thought the Caldari mostly used Miss-iles. Angels are never far. Take your glasses back to the bar at the end of the night. Fallen from grace. And as night comes, may flights of Angels visit your sleep... shoot your ships and steal all of your stuff.
Makoto Priano Priano Trans-Stellar State Services 1612	Posted - 2013.07.25 16:48:00 - [22] - Quote Well, at the very least, we've thoroughly derailed this thread.
Anslo The Scope Gallente Federation 2628	Posted - 2013.07.25 17:11:00 - [23] - Quote op success -\_For the Proveldtariat_/-
Korsavius Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 135	Posted - 2013.07.25 17:29:00 - [24] - Quote I can see why some readers of the IGS become... Missanthropic.
Saya Ishikari State War Academy Caldari State 26	Posted - 2013.07.25 18:08:00 - [25] - Quote Yes, complete de-rail-ment... Such a miss-appropriation of resources.
Repentence Tyrathlion Tyrathlion Interstellar 151	Posted - 2013.07.25 21:33:00 - [26] - Quote Seriously. We're miss-ing the point, just cruise-ing along without making a heavy assault on the rail topic. Have some arty, Ms Akahoshi was trying to iron out a point and lead us to a debate, not set off a torrent of terror-ble puns. ...running out of steam, maybe more later.
Katrina Oniseki Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1895	Posted - 2013.07.25 21:35:00 - [27] - Quote Repentence Tyrathlion wrote: ...running out of steam, maybe more later. Was there a pun in this line too, or did I miss it? Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations
Repentence Tyrathlion Tyrathlion Interstellar 151	Posted - 2013.07.25 21:38:00 - [28] - Quote Katrina Oniseki wrote: Repentence Tyrathlion wrote: ...running out of steam, maybe more later. Was there a pun in this line too, or did I miss it? Antimatter of fact, I got lazy and couldn't think of one.
Gabriel Darkefyre Gradient Electus Matari 75	Posted - 2013.07.25 23:29:00 - [29] - Quote Repentence Tyrathlion wrote: Katrina Oniseki wrote: Repentence Tyrathlion wrote: ...running out of steam, maybe more later. Was there a pun in this line too, or did I miss it? Antimatter of fact, I got lazy and couldn't think of one. Think it was a Misstake to read this thread. A Hail of bad puns leaves me in a Rage and Quake-ing with Fury. Perhaps I should just write this off as being Null and Void?
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine 1272	Posted - 2013.07.26 00:34:00 - [30] - Quote Gabriel Darkefyre wrote: Repentence Tyrathlion wrote: Katrina Oniseki wrote: Repentence Tyrathlion wrote: ...running out of steam, maybe more later. Was there a pun in this line too, or did I miss it? Antimatter of fact, I got lazy and couldn't think of one. Think it was a Misstake to read this thread. A Hail of bad puns leaves me in a Rage and Quake-ing with Fury. Perhaps I should just write this off as being Null and Void? If so, I declare you the Scourge of this thread.

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