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Randy Wray
Pathfinders.
The Marmite Collective
35
   |
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
The Rifter was my first pvp ship. I read wensley's rifter drifter guide and went out to lose some rifters and had a blast. It saddens me to see this beloved ship to be in such poor shape in todays meta. CCP buffed all the other frigates to the skies and left the Rifter behind. I think CCP should take another look at it and make it more diverse from the slasher.
There's some confusion around how strong the rifter was before the frigate rebalancing. I flew the rifter for 2 years prior to the rebalancing and I was beat by plenty of the other tier 3 frigates.
The Merlin was very strong back then already, I lost plenty of rifters to merlins and yet CCP chose to buff it even further. Kestrels were extremely strong in the pre-rebalancing frigate meta since most of the pvp able frigates were turret based and the kestrel could kite these with a dualweb rocket setup very efficiently. The Punisher was very much the same back then as it is now and the inqusitor was a missile frigate extremely underused minding how powerfull it could be in the hands of a good pilot. I met a brawling inquisitor once during my 2 years of flying rifters and it was one of the closest fights I've ever had.
My point here is, just because the rifter was the one that was the most commonly used tech 1 frigates didn't mean it was OP and since it wasn't really OP there was no reason for it to be left behind so badly in the frigate rebalance.
If you look at the rifter today in the t1 frigate meta it's pretty much crap at everything, it's like the old ferox - it can do alot of things but does none of them good. It doesn't have the speed of an attack frigate, it doesnt have the tank of a combat frigate and it doesn't have much gank to speak of either. What used to make the rifter strong was it's ability to project damage further than blaster boats while being able to make a decent tank at the same time as having a decent range control. Right now it has worse projection than blaster frigs loading null even if you load barrage(you have to get outside scram range for autocannons to win the projection game). For new minmatar players skilling into projectiles the slasher is the superior choice in every matter. It has higher speed, similar tank,the same dps if the rifter doesnt fit a rocket launcher which makes little difference anyway, a role bonus that makes it easier on cap, a better slot layout and a smaller signature radius.
The only competetive fit I've come up with for the rifter lately is 280mm artillery. This fit however needs very high SP to work as it plays on the fact that the rifter has higher base powergrid than the slasher and is able to run a microwarpdrive and warp disruptor without cap problems(assuming you have max capacitor skills). I've got a buddey that fits light neutron blasters on a rifter and sadly it works better than autocannons.
TLDR
For a solution I propose the following:
1, Change the skill bonuses from damage and tracking to damage and rate of fire to follow a common minmatar trend or damage and fallof to establish it's role as an attack ship and make it differ from the slasher.
2. Change its slot layout - remove the useless utility high(if you like the utility high I advice you fly a slasher instead, it makes better use of it - dat capstable neut) and replace it with a low or medium slot.
3. Increase its base speed to 375 m/s (this is important)
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
Randy Wray
Pathfinders.
The Marmite Collective
38
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 08:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Randy Wray wrote:
TLDR
For a solution I propose the following:
1, Change the skill bonuses from damage and tracking to damage and rate of fire to follow a common minmatar trend or damage and fallof to establish it's role as an attack ship and make it differ from the slasher.
2. Change its slot layout - remove the useless utility high(if you like the utility high I advice you fly a slasher instead, it makes better use of it - dat capstable neut) and replace it with a low or medium slot.
3. Increase its base speed to 375 m/s (this is important)
1.) Tracking is a major boon to the rifter. You may not realize it, but it is majorly important of applying damage to drones and frigates when you are orbiting, and will generally help you much more than a double damage bonus. The Rifter is still pretty much equivalent to the Punisher in terms of firepower, but the merlin seems to light years ahead in terms of dps and tank (50% more on both). Believe it or not, if you scram/web a merlin, orbit at 500 with your ab overheated, you'll mitigate a ton of the merlin's dps (cause it doesn't have a tracking bonus), and allow you to win the fight. 2.) Useless high? One of the HUGE strengths of the rifter comes from fitting a NOS in that "useless high". This allowed it to defy neut pressure, keep it's SAR running, and hit above its weight class. Alternatively, a neut was brutal against active tanked ships when shield gank fit. In general, a rocket launcher is a TERRIBLE use of that high, only slightly better than leaving it empty. It is that utility high with the 3 guns, 3 mids, 3 lows that made it so incredibly useful and versatile! 3.) Increasing the rifter's speed may help flush out it's old place. It still is pretty fast for a combat frig though, and I'm not sure this is necessary. Overall, I would leave it mostly as is, but simply replace the 5% damage bonus to a 5% R.O.F. bonus (+8.33% dps). 1. Slasher does the same thing but better.
2. Slasher does the same thing but better.
3. Rifter getting a speed buff was mostly due to my idea to change its bonuses which will make it into more of a midrange ship than an orbit 500 brawler.
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
Randy Wray
Pathfinders.
The Marmite Collective
38
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 11:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tobias Hareka wrote:Rifter isn't iWin button vs other frigates anymore so it needs a buff.  I don't see why it should be better than any other frigate.
I went to great lengths in my first post to explain this to you and still you post this.
gtfo troll
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
Randy Wray
Pathfinders.
The Marmite Collective
38
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 12:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:Drake Doe wrote:oh that is such an adorable armor tank, so cute! If you keep eating your vegetables, one day you'll grow big and strong like us. The incursus can perma tank 150dps so I don't know what you're on about. Rifter isn't a bad ship it just is predictable so people don't feel fancy fitting it.
I think you should read through the thread properly before you post awell.
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
Randy Wray
Pathfinders.
The Marmite Collective
45
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 18:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
gonna keep bumping this till I get dev response on why the rifter wasnt buffed properly.
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
Randy Wray
Pathfinders.
The Marmite Collective
45
|
Posted - 2013.08.02 07:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
bump
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
Randy Wray
SUPER GOOSE SQUAD
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
48
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Posted - 2013.08.13 21:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Ellendras Silver wrote:there was a reason that the rifter was so popular
there was a reason they buffed all frigates accept the rifter +1 for logic.
Logic? What kinda alternative universe do you live in? The only thing that put the rifter (and other minmatar ships like the cane and rupture) ahead of it's counterparts was the utility high. If you argue against this you've not done your homework. I spent countless hours EFTing and flying most of the frigates pre-rebalance (same with cruisers and battlecruisers) and they got fairly similar stats and alot of ships were actually superior to the rifter in performance. The cookie cutter rifter was so common because:
1. It required less skillpoints to fly effectively than other races frigates since it didn't need as many support skills like capacitor and fitting skills. Because of this stuff like rifter swarms became popular, because there was no other ship that a 3 day old noob could get as much performance out of as the rifter.
2. It was versatile, the cookie cutter NOS/SAR rifter fit is good at punching above its weight class, something that wasn't often seen among the rest of the frigates. However with this particular loadout you were most of the time worse off fighting other frigates. The rifter could also support both shield and armor tank loadouts.
Many of these problems were addressed before the frigate rebalance. Hybrid turrets got a reduction in fitting reqs and cap use and the explosion velocity of rockets were buffed making them a viable weapon system which made the kestrel super popular.
I'll say it again, there was no reason for the rifter to be left behind so badly. What you consider as logic is basically that the rifter should be left behind as some sort of punishment for being overly popular in the past? I didn't think that was how rebalancing was supposed to work.
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
Randy Wray
SUPER GOOSE SQUAD
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
49
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Phaade wrote:God's Apples wrote:Pretty much what whitehound said. They change ships based on their usage within the player base not actual power. This is the reason the cane was nerfed even though it was a much worse brawler than many BCs and a way worse kiter than the tier 3s. It is also the reason that although the sacrilege is probably one of the best HAC's right now it's receiving the largest buff (or at least change) because it is one of the least used whereas the zealot isn't the greatest ship and is over shadowed by the omen navy, but is the most used so they aren't changing it aside from a few minor tweaks to stats.
Before the t1 frigate buff I'd say the merlin was more powerful than the rifter, but the rifter was way way way more common. Now you see all the frigates used and the rifter is still favored by many so there is variety and therefore CCP has done their job. dude, the most common ship is 99% of the time the most powerful ship. Obviously others excel in specialized area's, however in general, the rifter was the best....by far.
Do you care to explain how it was the best?
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
Randy Wray
SUPER GOOSE SQUAD
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
53
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Randy Wray wrote:Phaade wrote:God's Apples wrote:Pretty much what whitehound said. They change ships based on their usage within the player base not actual power. This is the reason the cane was nerfed even though it was a much worse brawler than many BCs and a way worse kiter than the tier 3s. It is also the reason that although the sacrilege is probably one of the best HAC's right now it's receiving the largest buff (or at least change) because it is one of the least used whereas the zealot isn't the greatest ship and is over shadowed by the omen navy, but is the most used so they aren't changing it aside from a few minor tweaks to stats.
Before the t1 frigate buff I'd say the merlin was more powerful than the rifter, but the rifter was way way way more common. Now you see all the frigates used and the rifter is still favored by many so there is variety and therefore CCP has done their job. dude, the most common ship is 99% of the time the most powerful ship. Obviously others excel in specialized area's, however in general, the rifter was the best....by far. Do you care to explain how it was the best? It was faster than other t1 frigates. It did more damage than other t1 frigates save for a few specialized cases in which case it only did slightly less. It had a very strong tank compared to other t1 frigates. It had very high range projection for a t1 frigate. It did all of these things at the same timeThere were a couple of other t1 frigates that could potentially beat the Rifter in one of these things, but it would be far worse at everything else. -A blaster Merlin or incursus would be kited with barrage. -A rail merlin or incursus would just get facehugged and murdered because they were significantly slower than the riftger -Punisher had 2 mids, fitting problems, and exceptionally mediocre damage. The Rifter could just fly up, orbit at 500, and kill it easily. Or, the Rifter could just leave at will, because..you know...no webs. and slow. I like the Rifter (my corp is named for it). The Rifter is in fact underpowered and needs some buffs, but I can't imagine what kind of warped thought process led you to thinking that the Rifter was even remotely balanced before tiericide.
The reason I asked him to explain was the only thing he's been posting in this thread was essentially "rifter op nerf pls". I was trying to make him post a more comprehensive explanation of his opinions in the matter.
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
Randy Wray
SUPER GOOSE SQUAD
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
53
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 01:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Blastil wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:battleclinic-ers recently had a contest to figure out the best possible rifter fits in the current setup. Almost every setup could be done better by a slasher, with the winner being a laser boat with scorch (lol). Based on this contest and the results I think it's safe to say a change is in order: http://forum.battleclinic.com/index.php/topic,178086.0/topicseen.htmlbut aside from that, I too would like the rifter to be back in my hangar. Looks awesome (as does the slasher), but nothing much to use it for currently. Asking people on battleclinic to make good fits is like asking a quadriplegic to represent your country in the Olympic long jump. Making conclusions from data gathered there is just as foolish.
I like how you draw this conclusion purely from prejudice and your own few bad experiences with the community. Alot of people have problems with the battleclinic community but I've been a regular there for more than 2 years and there are plenty of people there that come up with very good fits.
Maybe you should actually look through the contest results next time, maybe you'll be positively surprised what the community can accomplish :)
Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @-áhttp://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec |
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