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Shock
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Posted - 2003.08.16 16:33:00 -
[1]
I'm not sure of this but it looks like the order of fulfilling buying orders on things like minerals on the market is not handled in the correct way.
It looks like the market will fulfill the newest order first instead of the oldest.
- When I issue a buying order for say 1000 trit. I let this run intill it's 500/1000. If I after that issue another one of 1000, it will ignore the first order and start fulfilling the second.
- I suffer very often of buying orders that suddenly freeze and almost never continue buying minerals. And this could then be caused by other people putting a new buying order after me after which their order will be fulfilled instead of mine, which was older. And very likely more order will follow after that resulting in my order never to be unfrozen.
I can sorta seen why this would be in the market. It's a way to make sure the playuers get to buy minerals at station even when the NPC ownder has some huge order standing in which case the player will cut in line.
I don't think this is a bad thing since otherwise minerals, especially lower ones would just become too scarce.
But players cutting in line of the orders of other players is a serious bad development. It will result in order barely ever being fulfilled if it's a busy station.
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soonÖ |
Glowing Star
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Posted - 2003.08.16 17:22:00 -
[2]
this is the correct way round,
if it did the orders in the other way, I
or someone else would place 100 billion worth of orders at the starter stations for scordite at 7, and completely control the market for 3 months. and similarly for anything else where the price cant be sensiablely beaten due to the low cost.
The only system for buy that works is, last order placed wins, which it is currently, or the round robin to all buyers of equal price which is proberly a pain to code so the devs are not going to do it.
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Shock
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Posted - 2003.08.16 17:58:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Shock on 16/08/2003 17:59:08
No it's not the right way. He who comes first should be served first. How would you feel if you are standing in like at a bakery for bread and someone cuts in line and buys the bread you've been waiting for.
If he has the money to make such an enourmous order he has the right to do so. But don't forget not very much people actually own that amount of money. ANd if they do it's unlikely they will put out such orders since they will start acquiring minerals and such in other ways.
Other people can easily go somewhere esle or do alternative trades. ALso they can just place their order, after the enroumous order is filled or cancelled it's their turn.
Now you can be pretty sure that a lot of you buying orders won't ever be fulfilled for 50% or worse. Meaning you have to travel all the time back to start it over again. After which you will cut in line of the other guy who then has to travel back as well..etc.
I don't know if this is the same for commodity trading, but if so, I really disagree, because in then it will never matter who gets somewhere first, only who gets that the latest before the commodities are sold on the market.
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soonÖ |
nono
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Posted - 2003.08.16 19:14:00 -
[4]
This isn't new and has been discussed at length many many many times. Unless you started reading the boards last week I can't see how you missed it.
The entire buy/sell system is RETARDED.
Last placed, first filled.
You get to camp in a station and place your buy order every 30 seconds because someone else is placing one every 30 seconds. WOW!
NPC buys at NPC price before any lower price so you can't underbid a sell order for NPC demand. WOW!
Buy orders should be placed and your money put down. I don't care how the real world works, in this game there is no bank or line of credit. If you place your order for 10 billion Mexallon and have the isk then you get served. If not then buy less. Don't want to tie up your money? DON'T BUY.
Refresh at server start,,, again discussed at length and the race to get in before server downtime or seconds after server start continue every day.
Successful trader = timezone, alarm clock, ninja mouse speed, and uber predictable repeatable markets.
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2003.08.16 19:47:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Luc Boye on 16/08/2003 19:49:38
that could easily be changed by devs, at least I think so (I code for living). Instead of using stack, use queue (FIFO - first in first out).
Round robin is easy to implement as well, because as I know, all sales and orders are processed server-side.
Someone probably just did it and never thought about it. I am sure, if people whine enough that CCP will change it, they changed about everything else. 
--
2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Shock
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Posted - 2003.08.16 20:53:00 -
[6]
I think it's this way to have a decent backbone of NPC demand, which probably works the same as player demand, but not let it interfere with player demand at the same station, since NPC demands are often huge.
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soonÖ |
Kimi
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Posted - 2003.08.17 02:12:00 -
[7]
" But don't forget not very much people actually own that amount of money..."
Actually, there are quite a few mid and large corps that could do that. You only need the money when you actually place the order, you don't have to leave that amount in there after the order is placed. We routinely place orders that total over 200 million, even though we might have only 30 million cash - since it treats each order individually, you can have several orders on several minerals at 30 mill.
And also, if they did it that way, the NPC's would get first grabs at all the minerals, so in most stations you would not be able to buy those with large NPC demands.
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Nemis Godslayer
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Posted - 2003.08.17 02:57:00 -
[8]
Think you all are missing the point...
Who cares who ordered first.
Who bid the most is what is important. Sounds like you are just being cheap...you want to beat the NPC demand, bid 1isk more than they do. You want a commodity before everyone else, bid more for it. If the next person wants to bid more than you, good for them, and good for the market.
Either way, you have to be the LAST bid in, either to be first in queue for same price or so you can make sure your bid is higher than everyone elses. Same difference. So why waste the coders time tweaking this vs adding more functionality (remote buy/sell orders would be nice--suggest using agents to do this for you...=P) or fixing other issues.
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Claren
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Posted - 2003.08.17 03:40:00 -
[9]
I'm not an proffessional coder, but to me it dosen't seems too difficult to add up how much one person have in total in buyorders and compare it to the value of his wallet. When your total amount of buyorders equals your wallet, then you can't place any more buyorders. Sounds simple, doesn't it?
And ofcourse orders should be served best bid first, secondary selection - oldest order first.
NPC prices should also be more dynamic, if one station ask a too high price and no one buys, price should be lower at that station next day.
Same with demand, if the demand of one day isn't fullfilled bid should be higher at that station next day. And the other way arround, if they sell all their stock, price goes up for next day.
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Pyroe
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Posted - 2003.08.17 04:07:00 -
[10]
 Quote:
Edited by: Luc Boye on 16/08/2003 19:49:38
that could easily be changed by devs, at least I think so (I code for living). Instead of using stack, use queue (FIFO - first in first out).
Round robin is easy to implement as well, because as I know, all sales and orders are processed server-side.
Someone probably just did it and never thought about it. I am sure, if people whine enough that CCP will change it, they changed about everything else.
ROFL. Yes maybe your right and it could be easily changed but this has been around since beta and release. It's not like it hasn't been beaten into the ground. I bet combined there is over 1000 posts on this from day one.
If they never thought about it then they are blind,deff and dumb. Simple as that. It's not like there wasn't enough noise about it all.
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nono
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Posted - 2003.08.17 04:12:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Think you all are missing the point...
Who cares who ordered first.
Who bid the most is what is important. Sounds like you are just being cheap...you want to beat the NPC demand, bid 1isk more than they do. You want a commodity before everyone else, bid more for it. If the next person wants to bid more than you, good for them, and good for the market.
Either way, you have to be the LAST bid in, either to be first in queue for same price or so you can make sure your bid is higher than everyone elses. Same difference. So why waste the coders time tweaking this vs adding more functionality (remote buy/sell orders would be nice--suggest using agents to do this for you...=P) or fixing other issues.
Your missing the POINT.
You don't have to bid higher in order to get what you want. Bid the same and be the last person to bid and the order is yours. It's not the same thing as you state. It's not to be first in the queue for same price as you have stated. It's the retardation of being the LAST in the queue. If you bid 1 isk higher someone 30 seconds later bids the same price and is at the head of the line in FRONT of you.
Understand?
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nono
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Posted - 2003.08.17 04:25:00 -
[12]
Quote:
this is the correct way round,
if it did the orders in the other way, I
or someone else would place 100 billion worth of orders at the starter stations for scordite at 7, and completely control the market for 3 months. and similarly for anything else where the price cant be sensiablely beaten due to the low cost.
The only system for buy that works is, last order placed wins, which it is currently, or the round robin to all buyers of equal price which is proberly a pain to code so the devs are not going to do it.
Yea this is correct ????
I'm standing inline at the beerstore, all cases are of equal price(for example). Your telling me the guy who just walked in the store gets served first because the guy at the head of the line might have enough money to buy all the beer? Or that they will serve everyone round robin?
If it were possible to start a bidding war on short supply I guess that would happen. The guy at the cash announces there are only 10 cases left and the bidding begins. He who pays the most gets the beer.
Your example with scordite. Bid 8 isk it yours.
But you should have to put out 800 BILLION isk not just a promisary note. " you do not have the funds to cover that order. Sorry try again."
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Callia
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Posted - 2003.08.17 09:28:00 -
[13]
What I would like to see is access to the acual orders themselves and players given the choice which order they buy of sell from.
Probably a bit nasty to code and laggy to sen all that data out though. Shame that.
Money down with an order is another thing I support.
Who are you to tell me to question authority? |
Kimi
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Posted - 2003.08.17 11:54:00 -
[14]
In the real world, yes you are correct - it should be FIFO - first in, first out.
However, the real world does not have "market griefers". The real world does not have corps that could monopolize an entire regions' supply of an item with a single bid for weeks.
Hopefully, eventually the market programming will be a lot more sophisticated than it is now, and will be able to take care of all the various types of exploits that would be possible now. But for now, it HAS to be LIFO - last in first out.
There are a lot of improvements that could be made in the market such as:
1. Allow decimal bids - ie, such as 1.07 ISK.
2. Do not allow TOTAL buy bids on all items to exceed your cash on hand. If your cash drops, then the oldest bids would be canceled.
3. PC bids always take precedence over NPC bids of the same price.
4. Dynamic pricing - the more that is sold to NPC's, the lower the price, and vice versa.
Those, and a lot of other changes MIGHT make it possible to use FIFO, but until then the current system is the only one that can work.
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Shock
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Posted - 2003.08.17 14:15:00 -
[15]
Quote:
However, the real world does not have "market griefers". The real world does not have corps that could monopolize an entire regions' supply of an item with a single bid for weeks.
I disagree, the market griefing has nothing to do with this.
If a corp wishes to buy everything at a station they shoudl be allowed to do so (though I think you are missing about how much money you are talking about, even very large corps will have trouble buying everything at a busy station longer then a few days) Besides if you just place your order it will then be handled before the a renewed order of the presumed megacorp in fron of you.
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soonÖ |
BSOD
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:57:00 -
[16]
Quote:
this is the correct way round,
if it did the orders in the other way, I
or someone else would place 100 billion worth of orders at the starter stations for scordite at 7, and completely control the market for 3 months. and similarly for anything else where the price cant be sensiablely beaten due to the low cost.
The only system for buy that works is, last order placed wins, which it is currently, or the round robin to all buyers of equal price which is proberly a pain to code so the devs are not going to do it.
Exactly.
Oddly, I thought the other way (i.e. "first come first served") was the way things worked, unless this patch changed them. Considering I was trying to buy scord, but gave up because someone had placed an order for 10 million units. Needless to say, I wouldn't ever see any of that scord.
A round-robin approach would be best, assuming they fix the holes regarding placing orders for stuff you don't have the cash for.
----------------
Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Kimi
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:57:00 -
[17]
"(though I think you are missing about how much money you are talking about, even very large corps will have trouble buying everything at a busy station longer then a few days)//"
don't think so.
Todaki station is one of the busiest in the game, and we buy from 50% to 95% of everything that is sold there, depending on what we need. And we are not a large corp. If the market worked the way you want it to, we would simply lock up the entire supply there forever.
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nono
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Posted - 2003.08.17 21:44:00 -
[18]
Quote:
"(though I think you are missing about how much money you are talking about, even very large corps will have trouble buying everything at a busy station longer then a few days)//"
don't think so.
Todaki station is one of the busiest in the game, and we buy from 50% to 95% of everything that is sold there, depending on what we need. And we are not a large corp. !!!If the market worked the way you want it to, we would simply lock up the entire supply there forever.!!!
And your corp or any corp or individual still can. My order will never see the light of day as long as someone places their order seconds after I place mine. So game time becomes sitting in a station protecting a buy order? You want the item? BID HIGHER!
Only ONE item in the whole ****in game needs this system. TRITIUM. Because you can't bid 1.1 isk the whole system gets fubared by this. Nobody will pay 2 isk for the stuff, it's just not realistic but thats the only way to beat a current buy order if you take away the last in first out system.
*cough* looks like no matter what you still end up sitting in a station continuosly placing your order until it hits the ceiling and nobody bids higher.
Last in first out though is RETARDED. Im at the cash register and the guy at the end of the line just walked out with my beer.
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Super Unknown
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Posted - 2003.08.17 22:29:00 -
[19]
Actually if you get right down to it the best system by far would be a pie system whoever has the biggest chunk of the pie at that price gets the biggest piece and it filters down accordingly so eventualy all the orders will get filled.
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Kapp
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Posted - 2003.08.18 00:31:00 -
[20]
Should be first in and first out. You should not be able to order more in total isk than you are worth. In event you spend your isk to a point lower than your orders they should begin to cancel.
This is easy stuff to figure. Just like npc buy orders should always take the backseat to pc buy orders of the same value. I can't believe this would be that difficult to program.
As for the price of trit at 1 isk and never at 2 isk? LOL if I were building BS's and all I needed was trit I would pay the extra 4.5 mil and buy trit for 2 isk. You still stand to make many millions per and it's better than an empty factory slot. Dom takes around 4.5 mil trit... I think that you could get that much on the trade channel advertising for 1.5isk per on large delivered loads in a heartbeat.
ok class out.
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Xylor
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Posted - 2003.08.18 02:27:00 -
[21]
The market logic is a joke but since I've beaten this to death in numerous other threads I won't even bother again. Perhaps one day, instead of doing the 132nd tweak to combat, CCP might actually find a few moments to fix the market. We can only hope.
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Elentari
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Posted - 2003.08.18 03:04:00 -
[22]
nono is my hero. If the guy at the front of the line has the money to buy the whole place out for a while, then he deserves to get his beer. He paid good money for it, and he was in line BEFORE you. First come, first serve. I cannot be any other way. I will try to get this brought up at the next CSM.
Again, I say that nono is my hero. There's no reason why the guy at the end of the line should get my beer.
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nono
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Posted - 2003.08.18 03:29:00 -
[23]
Edited by: nono on 18/08/2003 03:30:23
Quote:
Should be first in and first out. You should not be able to order more in total isk than you are worth. In event you spend your isk to a point lower than your orders they should begin to cancel.
This is easy stuff to figure. Just like npc buy orders should always take the backseat to pc buy orders of the same value. I can't believe this would be that difficult to program.
As for the price of trit at 1 isk and never at 2 isk? LOL if I were building BS's and all I needed was trit I would pay the extra 4.5 mil and buy trit for 2 isk. You still stand to make many millions per and it's better than an empty factory slot. Dom takes around 4.5 mil trit... I think that you could get that much on the trade channel advertising for 1.5isk per on large delivered loads in a heartbeat.
ok class out.
Show me how many orders are on the market for 2 Isk for tritium then. NOT ONE. At least none that I have ever seen, EVER.
Now the trade (SPAM) channel you can deal all you want but in the market you will not find one sorry.
To Elentari... Thanks and cheers.
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Kimi
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Posted - 2003.08.18 04:43:00 -
[24]
"So game time becomes sitting in a station protecting a buy order.."
Yup, I stay up 24/7 just renewing all my bids at that station every 10 minutes or so.
How is that worse than me placing a 3-month buy order for say, the next 500 million ISK worth of Trit? (and, yes, we have enough cash that we could do that). If do that, then your ONLY choice is to bid 2 ISK for it - for the next 3 months. However, since I am putting in a NEW 90 day buy each day...
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Johnson McCrae
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Posted - 2003.08.18 04:54:00 -
[25]
This may be to Hellmar's idea for market anti-griefing.
He who griefs first IS greifed first.
<looks for hellmar laughing his butt off>
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya!
[ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
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Fritz Ionar
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Posted - 2003.08.18 11:55:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Fritz Ionar on 18/08/2003 11:55:37
Of topic but any way...
Quote:
Show me how many orders are on the market for 2 Isk for tritium then. NOT ONE. At least none that I have ever seen, EVER.
I have no problem selling my tritanium for 2 ISK. Granted I've not seen buy orders for it but my sell orders clean out pretty fast so obviously people are buying it for 2 ISK and in large quantities to.
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The services YOU need, WE provide! |
BSOD
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Posted - 2003.08.18 14:11:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Edited by: Fritz Ionar on 18/08/2003 11:55:37
Of topic but any way...
Quote:
Show me how many orders are on the market for 2 Isk for tritium then. NOT ONE. At least none that I have ever seen, EVER.
I have no problem selling my tritanium for 2 ISK. Granted I've not seen buy orders for it but my sell orders clean out pretty fast so obviously people are buying it for 2 ISK and in large quantities to.
Man, you're lucky. Best I've been able to do is 1.5 ISK. (Read, person-to-person trades only.)
----------------
Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Claren
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Posted - 2003.08.18 15:33:00 -
[28]
Quote:
In the real world, yes you are correct - it should be FIFO - first in, first out.
However, the real world does not have "market griefers". The real world does not have corps that could monopolize an entire regions' supply of an item with a single bid for weeks.
:-)
Finaly we have found an alien lifeform.
It must be a wonderfull world where you come from, but here on earth it is exactly like that. Those with enough money runs the market.
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Colibri
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Posted - 2003.08.18 15:56:00 -
[29]
Had I known it would have been a subject for debate, I would have taken screenshots but I have sold tritanium on several occasions for 2isk each. Several million trit, in fact.
One way to deal with market griefers would be to eliminate buying on margin. When you create sell orders for minerals, it ties up the minerals. When you create buy orders, it should tie up your ISK which may reduce market griefing somewhat.
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Glowing Star
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Posted - 2003.08.18 17:56:00 -
[30]
Do we need to put this in the idea's lab? Are devs already on the case..
Rule 1) Total buy orders value must < current isk balance or new order can't be placed.
Rule 2) If during down time the Total buy orders value < current isk balance then the highest value buy order with be delete until this is true.
Other method.
Isk vanishes from account when order is placed, and returned when order is cancelled. And if you impletment this please remember to only refund the isk for orders placed after the patch!! or some people will get very rich suddenly. Of course with the proper advanced warning it would be ok to just take the isk and cancel orders randomly during downtime of that patch..
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