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widgetman
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:04:00 -
[1]
I'm sorry to say this but it looks like CCP have biten off too much this time. All anyone is concerned about is the amount of players they can get online at the same time, and stuff the playability.
This game is virtualy un-playable at the moment and this is 4-5 Days after the patch.No one seems to be addressing the serious issue of playability , i would rather have the Cold War Edition and be able to at least play the game, rather than new things to play with and a game which we cant even play!!
This is a serious issue as not just myself but many others are all getting ****ed off with the lack of dedication to the game stability and more people worring about the game's new ships and how many people we can get on the friggin' servers.
Remember we are all paying for this , and it would hardly qualify as a Beta game in its present state.
Eve is a great concept and game, but i would hate to see it ruined by Ego ridden people who don't care about the games playability.
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Clytamnestra
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:07:00 -
[2]
Naturally, this isn't the first time I've seen a similar topic today. However me, and the 18 964 players who are currently logged on disagree with you. It's quite playable.
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Clyt
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:07:00 -
[3]
server went down 20:00 GMT Wednesday and came up around midnight GMT Friday. it's now Sunday afternoon GMT, how is that 4-5 days?
stop crying about lag and wait for them to fix it, they haven't released the usual post-patch hotfix yet.
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Rasta Rocketman
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:09:00 -
[4]
Post-patch is always rough for a short while. Get over it, quit complaining, and have some patience.
It's a great game and they are always adding extraordinary content.
_______________________________________________
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widgetman
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:09:00 -
[5]
Well you dont obviously play decent games, im logged on and can hardly do anything without it taken 3 mins a click................all im saying is its been days since the patch and we should have the servers taken down if we get this crap all day...........
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Ravenal
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:11:00 -
[6]
move out of high traffic systems...
move back when lag has been fixed.
cmon.. there is plenty more to eve than a few system with lots of people in them.. there are like 5000 other solarsystems out there
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Ravenal - Fate is what you make of it. |
Robert Dobbs
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:13:00 -
[7]
After every expansion that ive experienced (Castor, Exodus, RMR) there has been a week or two where you can't play the game, due to bugs and server lag.
It's not a wonderful thing, but it's much nicer if you expect it and just log in for skill changes :)
After a week or so, the PVPers will be able to play again..
/me drools |
Alitha Maru
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:14:00 -
[8]
I'm doing missions out of Wysalan, Masalle or Aporulie. And that is not crowded systems at all. Still it is molasses, and responsetime is as great as 3 minutes some times. So needless to say I can't do much. I'm taking a break, and reactivate some other mmorpg account in the meantime. |
Lady Ghoulia
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:14:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: widgetman
Well you dont obviously play decent games, im logged on and can hardly do anything without it taken 3 mins a click................all im saying is its been days since the patch and we should have the servers taken down if we get this crap all day...........
ok, let's play a game. what system are you in? what internet connection do you have? what are your PC specs? do you have any money you want to give me?
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dosperado
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:17:00 -
[10]
Edited by: dosperado on 18/12/2005 17:17:05
3-4 mins lag in Devoid region. 4-5 Players in local...
____________________
CEO Denial of Service
NPC Mass Murderer
Security Status 7.8 |
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Lord Frost
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:20:00 -
[11]
Its the way of the world... you build up cities, towns, with stores, markets, malls, homes, and then you widen the roads once everyone moves in.
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Brisi
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:22:00 -
[12]
How long have you been playing this game? It is always like this after a major expansion/patch, always. Besides, it has become much better since for example back when they deployed Castor, that took forever to get right.
So please. Get over the fact that you can't play the game without any problems, just 2-3 days after a huge patch, and wait for a week or two, then everything will be fine.
Suffice to say, I've grown tired with all the people whining over lag etc, it's not like it has come unexpected.
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Jowen Datloran
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:29:00 -
[13]
I'm getting exactly what I'm paying for. I even think I'll start up another account tonight.
If you don't feel you're getting what you're paying for theres only one option... (and that's not to complain on the forums where we all are aware of the server problems.)
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Main as main can be |
nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:32:00 -
[14]
Not had any problems since saturday night...try getting your ass out of hub systems...
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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Cabadrin
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:36:00 -
[15]
Of course it was never like this in the beginning of Cold War or Shiva, let alone Castor ... They're deploying hotfixes daily to fix lag and the associated bugs with the expansion  It's only been a few days. Go read a book.
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Eve-Online Blog |
Nicholai Pestot
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lord Frost
Its the way of the world... you build up cities, towns, with stores, markets, malls, homes, and then you widen the roads once everyone moves in.
Heh, smart
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I have supped the milk of human kindness, and discovered i am lactose intolerant |
Gonada
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:43:00 -
[17]
/offers cheese to those who have tons of whine
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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Robert Dobbs
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cabadrin
Cold War
I'm going to read you post as sarcasm because it doesn't make sense otherwise :)
Although I dont remember any problems with the Cold War release. Though that was more of a large patch than an expansion.
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leewink
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Posted - 2005.12.18 17:48:00 -
[19]
Agree, total unplayable waste of time and money.
Time isnt a factor, theyve had enough test time, its just how much cash they can get in, get some decent servers, yes, more than one !!
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.12.18 18:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: leewink
Agree, total unplayable waste of time and money.
Time isnt a factor, theyve had enough test time, its just how much cash they can get in, get some decent servers, yes, more than one !!
Read the lastest dev blog you total muppet...
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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solidshot
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Posted - 2005.12.18 18:07:00 -
[21]
Originally by: leewink
Agree, total unplayable waste of time and money.
Time isnt a factor, theyve had enough test time, its just how much cash they can get in, get some decent servers, yes, more than one !!
stop being a whining ****
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Big BillyBob
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Posted - 2005.12.18 18:30:00 -
[22]
Bunch of whiny gits.
They are working on the problem. How do I know this? Simple.
If your not happy, you don't pay and thus they don't make money. By adding on more content and making the servers unstable, how exactly are they making money? Enlighten me please! 
They don't do themselves a favor when this happens. They are working to fix it and right now it is their number one priority because, and I said earlier and which should be pretty obvious, an unplayable game gathers little subscribers.
Now, for a moment, try to consider that YOU can help fix your problem.
1) Move to a region, NOT JUST A SYSTEM, with a low load. I did this earlier today and I had absolutely no lag at all when I moved from the Sobaseki/Nonni systems down into southern Amarr space.
If you complain about not being able to do anything down there, whatever. There is plenty to do, your just not looking or trying hard enough. Go mine, run missions with another faction (*gasp* work for another faction?! oh noes!!) Take a gaze into 0.0 ang get ganked, I don't care.
2) Maybe, just MAYBE, your connection and / or hardware is holding you back. If this was apparent pre-RMR and you are now deciding to b*tch about it but blaming it on the servers, go sodomize yourself.
Before you start complaining about the game, check your OWN computer first.
Right now the game IS playable, even in the overly populated regions. I could use the market, buy stuff, switch and refit ships, do missions, undock, and jump with very minimal lag, and I was next door to Nonni. I have no idea what is wrong with YOUR end of the connection, but mine is fine.
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Raznarok
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Posted - 2005.12.18 18:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rasta Rocketman
Post-patch is always rough for a short while. Get over it, quit complaining, and have some patience.
It's a great game and they are always adding extraordinary content.
Agreed.
EXODUS to my knowledge experienced teething problems also, but it didnt take long for that to come right. As players your paying for these expansions and when they come out you complain. Think about how great the new additions will be when there up and running properly.
And yes if your in the main trading hubs, with the new all of a sudden 6k of players - remember when 14k was a big deal *sigh* - then sure your going to experience lag.
Patience is a virtue. |
Katrine Bei
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Posted - 2005.12.18 18:56:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Katrine Bei on 18/12/2005 18:57:09
omg...its kind of hard to believe that some people can be that .............well, anyway. If its such a waste of time and money, just put your account on pause and go out and do something else for pets sake! Did anyone at all think that the game would run as smooth as a babiess bum only 3 days after a large update? This isn't the occationall FPS patch release!
But sadly i dont think it's any use to complain about the complainers either Person wines on forum - people tell him to calm down - another person wines on the forum - people tell him to calm down - anothet person comes to the forum - and so on......it's the same as regardless of how many kids you learn to read "wine" at the kindergarden there will always come new kids you can learn to read  sadly...
THe devs should put a sticky thread with the title "PATCH WINING WITHING 7 DAYS AFTER DEPLOYMENT WILL RESULT IN A 7 DAY FORUM BAN!"
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Princess Beefcurtains
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:03:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Princess Beefcurtains on 18/12/2005 19:04:15
OK, only going to say this ONCE!
EXPECT LAG FOR UP TO 2 WEEKS AFTER NEW PATCH DUE TO PEOPLE AUTOPATCHING. THE LAG WILL BE WORST AFTER 17:00 WEEKDAYS AND AT WEEKENDS BUT IT LETS UP PRETTY FAST AFTER THE FIRST WEEKEND. THIS HAPPENS NOT ENTIRELY BECAUSE OF SERVER PROBS BUT MOSTLY BECAUSE OF PEOPLE AUTOPATCHING, HENCE I SAY IT DIES DOWN PRETTY FAST AFTER THE FIRST WEEK. THERE ARE ALREADY 100s OF 'THIS ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH' POSTS. GET OVER IT, IT DOES NOT LAST LONG AND YOU DIDNT HAVE TO PAY FOR THE UPGRADE.
'FIN'
Click here to find weapons of mass destruction |
Boonaki
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:08:00 -
[26]
I'm sitting in deep 0.0 all by myself and it's taking 5 to 10 minutes per jump. I have never complained about any of the patches before, but not being able to do a simple task like jumping is getting annoying.
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
FiberEagle
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:10:00 -
[27]
Autopatch, best side of eve I guess, downloading from servers where eve is hosted on lol.
U are correct no doubt, tho gotta wonder why ccp puts patc file on eve servers ratehr then bittorent or some other server other then there's.
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Princess Beefcurtains
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:12:00 -
[28]
Originally by: FiberEagle
Autopatch, best side of eve I guess, downloading from servers where eve is hosted on lol.
U are correct no doubt, tho gotta wonder why ccp puts patc file on eve servers ratehr then bittorent or some other server other then there's.
They also use bittorrent etc but not that many people use it
Click here to find weapons of mass destruction |
FUna
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: widgetman
I'm sorry to say this but it looks like CCP have biten off too much this time. All anyone is concerned about is the amount of players they can get online at the same time, and stuff the playability.
This game is virtualy un-playable at the moment and this is 4-5 Days after the patch.No one seems to be addressing the serious issue of playability , i would rather have the Cold War Edition and be able to at least play the game, rather than new things to play with and a game which we cant even play!!
This is a serious issue as not just myself but many others are all getting ****ed off with the lack of dedication to the game stability and more people worring about the game's new ships and how many people we can get on the friggin' servers.
Remember we are all paying for this , and it would hardly qualify as a Beta game in its present state.
Eve is a great concept and game, but i would hate to see it ruined by Ego ridden people who don't care about the games playability.
/me passes widgetman a cheese platter.
For someone who's character was created in 2004 you sure don't understand the whole patch process in eve...ebay much?
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tony Fats
Getting very bad responsiveness here.
I am willing to overlook it but I don't need the suckups telling me its not true when it is.
Its not true where i was...no more than normal lag sine saturady night for me.
What i don't need are drama queens assuming that the problems are everywhere when they are not.
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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Tony Fats
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:43:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Princess Beefcurtains
Originally by: Tony Fats
Getting very bad responsiveness here.
I am willing to overlook it but I don't need the suckups telling me its not true when it is.
Read my post and tell me where it says 'it's not true' please... When you find it doesnt say that anywhere and you understand why it is happening, come back, post an appology and declare yourself ignorant.
So wait. I said I don't need the SUCKUPS telling me that, are you a suckup?
No point. Jus' sayin.
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:45:00 -
[32]
Pfft, this game is full of spoiled children, god help them if they actually pay-to-play one of the poorer quality MMORPG out there.
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Galk
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:45:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Princess Beefcurtains
Originally by: FiberEagle
Autopatch, best side of eve I guess, downloading from servers where eve is hosted on lol.
U are correct no doubt, tho gotta wonder why ccp puts patc file on eve servers ratehr then bittorent or some other server other then there's.
They also use bittorrent etc but not that many people use it
Kieron posted last week about them NOT using bitorrent this time around.. they had a seperate hosting agreement this time so there was no need for it.
Also please bare in mind that the auto patcher doesn't work for a lot of people.
And as for people saying that it's 'allways' like this, id suggest you read yesterdays dev blog about the state of the server, as reguards to the changes they have made to the code. We are not in a normal server enviroment, ccp are treading fresh ground 'beta style' 
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She says It's only in my head
She says Shhh I know it's only in my head
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Princess Beefcurtains
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:45:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Tony Fats
Originally by: Princess Beefcurtains
Originally by: Tony Fats
Getting very bad responsiveness here.
I am willing to overlook it but I don't need the suckups telling me its not true when it is.
Read my post and tell me where it says 'it's not true' please... When you find it doesnt say that anywhere and you understand why it is happening, come back, post an appology and declare yourself ignorant.
So wait. I said I don't need the SUCKUPS telling me that, are you a suckup?
No point. Jus' sayin.
Yarrr, got meh. not a suckup, just assumed you where calling me that being as most of the posts before where by meh.
Click here to find weapons of mass destruction |
Tony Fats
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Posted - 2005.12.18 19:47:00 -
[35]
Originally by: nahtoh
Originally by: Tony Fats
Getting very bad responsiveness here.
I am willing to overlook it but I don't need the suckups telling me its not true when it is.
Its not true where i was...no more than normal lag sine saturady night for me.
What i don't need are drama queens assuming that the problems are everywhere when they are not.
Oh just "normal" saturday lag huh? Yeah I guess that makes it all ok.
Thats even worse than "we're working on it."
Well I'll let you get back to mining, kneepad warrior.
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.12.18 20:54:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Tony Fats
Originally by: nahtoh
Originally by: Tony Fats
Getting very bad responsiveness here.
I am willing to overlook it but I don't need the suckups telling me its not true when it is.
Its not true where i was...no more than normal lag sine saturady night for me.
What i don't need are drama queens assuming that the problems are everywhere when they are not.
Oh just "normal" saturday lag huh? Yeah I guess that makes it all ok.
Thats even worse than "we're working on it."
Well I'll let you get back to mining, kneepad warrior.
Normal as in "virually none anywere I happen to be" which considering its over 20k players online days after a lot of under the hood changes...****wit
Guns, activate instantly...
Drones little fraction of a sec spike when kicked out...
no problems docking and undocking...
Been enjoying a hassle free game play for over 24 hours now.
I happen to realisze that this is not the case for everybody, but unlike you skippy I can seperate whats happening to me from whats happening to everybody else.
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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Batar Fireheart
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Posted - 2005.12.18 21:17:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Brisi
How long have you been playing this game? It is always like this after a major expansion/patch, always. Besides, it has become much better since for example back when they deployed Castor, that took forever to get right.
So please. Get over the fact that you can't play the game without any problems, just 2-3 days after a huge patch, and wait for a week or two, then everything will be fine.
Suffice to say, I've grown tired with all the people whining over lag etc, it's not like it has come unexpected.
AMEN BROTHER!! people whine about this patch, castor had to be the worst and the game survived and has grown considerably. imagine the game where there were no mining barges no tech2 equipment ( except mining laser 2's), no learning skills (except learning)
"MAY YOUR WALLET BE FULL OF ISK AND YOUR CANNONS BLESSED"
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John DoeTheReal
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Posted - 2005.12.18 21:22:00 -
[38]
I would find it good when CCP gives us a compensation of the lost play-time. For example adding a week of play-time to our account. I know that in WOW they compensated players for just one day of downtime!!
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Hanan Lazaar
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Posted - 2005.12.18 21:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Clytamnestra
Naturally, this isn't the first time I've seen a similar topic today. However me, and the 18 964 players who are currently logged on disagree with you. It's quite playable.
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Clyt
18.964 minus 1 (which is me) Patience is ok, if we will get compentation and patience will come to an end. And it is now 4 days ago since patch deployment has started. I would pay 100 Euro for getting back to Cold War. And another 100 Euro to roleback to the one before Corld War.
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prsr
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Posted - 2005.12.18 21:43:00 -
[40]
Originally by: John DoeTheReal
I would find it good when CCP gives us a compensation of the lost play-time. For example adding a week of play-time to our account. I know that in WOW they compensated players for just one day of downtime!!
Are you suggesting CCP should look at Blizzard for tips on how to manage an MMORPG?
Nuts...
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FUna
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Posted - 2005.12.18 23:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: prsr
Originally by: John DoeTheReal
I would find it good when CCP gives us a compensation of the lost play-time. For example adding a week of play-time to our account. I know that in WOW they compensated players for just one day of downtime!!
Are you suggesting CCP should look at Blizzard for tips on how to manage an MMORPG?
Nuts...
Yeah really...Eve is an MMORPG...
WoW is an interactive persistent world cartoon.
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Sinari Galdrin
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Posted - 2005.12.19 00:34:00 -
[42]
Well, I had severe lag when RMR was first released, but after the last couple of reboots things seem to be back to normal for me. I'm in Sobaseki and have been running missions with no noticeable lag - in fact, things seem better than before RMR.
I don't doubt that some people are getting bad lag, but have you told anyone at CCP (eg via 'Ask a question') about the problems, including which system you're in? Forum mods can't help you..
I suspect that the severe lag in Sobaseki after the patch was first released has been resolved at least partly by a re-allocation of game servers giving it more priority. Maybe they need to do something similar to the system(s) you're in. Systems like Jita, Sobaseki, etc which were really bad straight after the patch seem quite good now.
(Remember that if you are in a quiet system, your system won't have a server to itself, it will be sharing a server with other systems, which might be busy and those other systems are making your system lag - CCP can probably move things around if this is the case - if they know about it!)
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Kage Getsu
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Posted - 2005.12.19 00:37:00 -
[43]
It's not that bad outside of the core systems like Oursulaert and Jita. I'm doing missinos just fine.
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Sidee
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Posted - 2005.12.19 00:40:00 -
[44]
Have to say, Ive got the view of quite a few people who are simply saying give CCP a chance. I agree that although its disappointing, it is to be expected after a major patch for there to be lag, bugs, very rarely in online gaming have I seen a large MMO patch go smoothly. {erhaps the decision to pull this one off in the holidays was a little ambitious, but then I doubt many of these problems would have been fixed for a Jan release, so might as well just get the rough ride over ASAP so we can enjoy the patch.
However... those people who are flaming the people who are unhappy with the patch: I think that while some of us are content to just leave it a couple of weeks. It is PERFECTLY legitimate to be upset about the situation. In the end, any continuous subscription or monthly/quartery payment etc can be considered a service. I know what happens if my internet is down for more than a couple of hours and ive troobleshooted that its nothing to do with my end, im on the phone to the ISP to check the situation. If my internet is down for days non end, u bet id be jumping up and down for refunds for days unplugged and also on the phone trying to find out whats going on, and although im civil on the phone (and forums) those of us who've worked in customer service (such as myself) know that there are just so many temperaments out there, and not everyone reacts to things in the same light. Thats not to say that their point is less valid.
In the same light you can look at any subscription style service. Generally if they arent on top of it, theres the argument that they are supposed to be providing a service and aren't.
Now. Many people who play this game, like myself, will view it as a kind of hobby a bit of a good laugh, entertainment etc etc. Those vets among us know the ropes and feel confident in CCP and sill stick by the team that we have faith in. Now there are also many people who view this game as a service (subscription) and as a result feel that if the service is not running as it should, then they as a paying customer are suffering.
This is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint to take, and telling them to stfu and stop whining will get absolutely nowhere as well as lacking in constructive criticism. On the other hand posting threads like "This patch omfgsuckz0rz" is also low on constructive critisicm and will get nowhere. All in all im simply asking that people take posts and counter posts with a pinch of salt. Tempers and attitudes are running high at the moment, and theres no need to decrease the morale of the community by continually flaming each other for different viewpoints. Lets see if we can pull out a little respect for people no matter how pathetic or stupid one might view their opinions, everyone is entitled to their opinion and it is neither right nor wrong, as it is again simply opinin :)
(be careful quoting dodgy facts tho hehe ;))
Cheers
Sidey
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.12.19 01:51:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sidee
However... those people who are flaming the people who are unhappy with the patch: I think that while some of us are content to just leave it a couple of weeks. It is PERFECTLY legitimate to be upset about the situation. In the end, any continuous subscription or monthly/quartery payment etc can be considered a service. I know what happens if my internet is down for more than a couple of hours and ive troobleshooted that its nothing to do with my end, im on the phone to the ISP to check the situation. If my internet is down for days non end, u bet id be jumping up and down for refunds for days unplugged and also on the phone trying to find out whats going on, and although im civil on the phone (and forums) those of us who've worked in customer service (such as myself) know that there are just so many temperaments out there, and not everyone reacts to things in the same light. Thats not to say that their point is less valid.
Sidey
Being one of those poor internet techs who has had to put up with the stupid/the clueless/the whinney self centered asshats and the real gems annoyed but understanding (always a plesure to deal with this bunch they can really make your day so much more easy and stress free).
I have no sympathy left for the "I quit Bunch" after I finsh work , I can interact with them fine here without having to be nice, understanding or frankly giving much of a toss.
Also like yourself I am currently having no problems in game, little to no lag and all funtions I use working fine.
But TBH with the amount of I want comp for the 5 mins it did not work or I don't care what happened (remember the big BT fire?) or the I don't care that its being worked on crap i have dealt with in the past and currently and no doubt in the future for all teh whinners out there demanding this that or the other feck em.
They wanna quit? Fine bye bye and pls trip down a couple of flights of stiars on your way out...
If you have worked for in customer servie and are still willing to give them the benifit of teh doubt and be understanding why your not getting paid for it Sidee your a stronger man than me, I just want em to sodd of and ***
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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Dedekind
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Posted - 2005.12.19 01:59:00 -
[46]
Relax. The game has become very stable already, and is far from unplayable. CCP are working on whatever remains to be fixed. For my part I have got used to the new font, and am enjoying the game very much.
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Joachim Winter
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Posted - 2005.12.19 02:02:00 -
[47]
Hey Widgetman (or should that be whinerman) if you don't like it then.........
Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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"If fishes were wishes we'd all cast nets"
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Peter Armstrong
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Posted - 2005.12.19 02:12:00 -
[48]
man post like these just BORE!!! ME as everyone knows why it laggy etc. Hell if u have such problem why dont u unstall eve. i kinda sick of hearing the same crap and CCP getting all the time. Geez they doing there dam best for crying out loud!! i think they need another part of the forums called (whining 4tw)
EVE 4tw
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