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Winter Expansion balancing - The gallente frigate problem

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Uppsy Daisy Deteis Industries 5	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:02:00 - [1] - Quote I know that the leached stats from the test server are still in an early iteration. I know that there is a high probability that further balancing will occur. I just want to flag the following: 1) There is a general consensus that small blasters are already balanced reasonably well, as frigates generally already have the mobility to apply damage at short range. For examples, the following frigates fit with blasters are not seen as underpowered in their bracket: - Blaster fit Incursus and Tristan are fine compared to other T1 frigates - Blaster fit Taranis is a very popular brawling interceptor - Blaster fit Daredevil is not underpowered compared to other faction frigs (except Dram, which will be nerfed) - Blaster fit Ishkur is already one of the best Assault frigates So I think we can all agree on this. 2) The combined effect of - Less Powergrid and CPU requirements for ALL blasters - Micro Auxiliary Power II giving +12 PG instead of the normal +10 (same as Navy MPAC but 18CPU not 19CPU) This gives many gallente frigates, especially the ones that would normally fit a Micro Auxiliary Power Core, options for more DPS or tank than they had before via the spare Power Grid and CPU introduced through these changes. 3) Small blasters draw less capacitor. 4) Small blasters are also getting a tracking boost. 5) Many gallente frigates (i.e. Tristan, Incursus) are also getting a 10m/s maximum velocity boost (I understand they are getting an agility nerf too, so maybe this balances out the velocity boost) I think these changes will unbalance the frigate class in favour of gallente/blasters. NOTE: PLEASE keep this discussion limited to frigates and small blasters.
Cpt Fina The Tuskers 65	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:10:00 - [2] - Quote Uppsy Daisy wrote: I understand they are getting an agility nerf too, so maybe this balances out the velocity boost As far as i know it's an agility/acceleration boost.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 650	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:14:00 - [3] - Quote higher agility = better quicker turning, start/stopping GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Follow me on Twitter @Chribba

Karl Planck Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos 14	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:18:00 - [4] - Quote woops, im tarded
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 1035	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:18:00 - [5] - Quote Cpt Fina wrote: Uppsy Daisy wrote: I understand they are getting an agility nerf too, so maybe this balances out the velocity boost As far as i know it's an agility/acceleration boost. Chribba wrote: higher agility = better quicker turning, start/stopping They get an increased inertia modifier, which leads to lower agility. The problem is that the data dump that is floating around is calling this attribute GÇ£agilityGÇ¥, which is rather contrary to what it actually does (even though it is, indeed, a large part of the agility calculation). It's a clash of terminology, if you like. The game doesn't really have any concept of agility GÇö just Mass +ù InertiaMod GÇö and we as players have come to call the latter agility becauseGÇª wellGÇª it's part of the formula for what we think of as agility, and mass is already mass. The problem with calling one thing something more familiar like this is that the thing in question does the opposite of what our chosen synonym usually conveys. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á
cyka776 6	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:20:00 - [6] - Quote yeah its an agility nerf apparently for cald and gal ships...seems questionable to me but will see i guess
Trespasser Isotope Incorporated Exiled Collective 0	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:20:00 - [7] - Quote I dont think it will be as big of an issue as you think, The ishkur isnt that fast and we havent seen what they are doing to assault ships yet. the ranis is nice but its slower then some of the other cepters, so again not a big issue there. Meh, i would wait and see i think it wont be as over powered as you think
Zoe Alarhun The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation 41	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:21:00 - [8] - Quote Also most smaller Hybrids arn't getting their grid usage nerfed. Just CPU.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 843	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:26:00 - [9] - Quote Even if this leads to Gallante ships being the FoTM for a bit, I am relaxed about this. They've been in the wilderness for 4 years; let them warm their toes at the fire a while. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Uppsy Daisy Deteis Industries 5	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:28:00 - [10] - Quote Actual data dump from pastebin states agility increase not inertia so lets assume its right, in the absense of any evidence from Tippia. Will correct original post. Atron agility: 2.92 => 3.066 Maulus agility: 4.08 => 4.284 maxVelocity: 296.0 => 306.0 Incursus agility: 3.31 => 3.4755 maxVelocity: 334.0 => 344.0 Tristan agility: 3.85 => 4.0425 maxVelocity: 296.0 => 306.0 Enyo agility: 4.128 => 4.3344 maxVelocity: 278.0 => 288.0 Ishkur agility: 4.072 => 4.2756 Helios agility: 4.36 => 4.578 maxVelocity: 320.0 => 330.0 Ares agility: 3.1 => 3.255 Taranis agility: 3.1 => 3.255 Federation Navy Comet agility: 3.3 => 3.465 maxVelocity: 370.0 => 375.0 Daredevil agility: 3.39 => 3.5595

Cpt Fina The Tuskers 65	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:30:00 - [11] - Quote So its a nerf to turning and acceleration!? Thanks for the clarification tippa but this is bs tbh. I would rather see it the other way around. Increase acceleration and leave speed a it is. In many (or most) cases gallente blasterships wont even get near max-speed as it pulses the MWD once or maybe twice to get within range.
Uppsy Daisy Deteis Industries 5	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:34:00 - [12] - Quote Zoe Alarhun wrote: Also most smaller Hybrids arn't getting their grid usage nerfed. Just CPU. Thanks for pointing that out, you are right. It is actually only the small Neutron class that gets a PG, CPU and Capacitor requirements decrease. Ions and Electrons are only getting a CPU and Capacitor requirements decrease. However, I think my arguments still hold. Most people will be fitting small Neutrons on gallente frigates following these changes. I have updated my original post to clarify this.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 1035	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:38:00 - [13] - Quote Uppsy Daisy wrote: Actual data dump from pastebin states agility increase not inertia so lets assume its right, in the absense of any evidence from Tippia. The problem is: there is no GÇ£agilityGÇ¥ stat. Look at the same ships in the item database, and you'll notice those exact same GÇ£agilityGÇ¥ numbers listed under the heading Inertia Modifier. GÇ£AgilityGÇ¥ is just something we players (not quite incorrectly, but counter-intuitively) call it because GÇ£inertia modifierGÇ¥ is such a clumsy and nondescript term. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á
Zoe Alarhun The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation 41	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:40:00 - [14] - Quote Naah - speaking as someone who spends 90% of their time in a Tristan. I will be upgrading from Electrons to Ions (If I can make them fit, I dislike fitting mods). I will try and upgrade Incursus to neutrons from Ions. Again if I can get away with minimal fitting. I find that the smaller blasters have far superior tracking vs the neutrons. On the tristan it doesn't matter much seeing as you have a tracking bonus, but on the Incursus it can be annoying to have such poor tracking. (comparitively speaking) Also even with changes the Hybrids still use a comparitively large amount of grid/cpu compared to auto's In all I don't think it will unbalance things.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet 4	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:42:00 - [15] - Quote Uppsy Daisy wrote: Actual data dump from pastebin states agility increase not inertia so lets assume its right, in the absense of any evidence from Tippia. Will correct original post. Atron agility: 2.92 => 3.066 Maulus agility: 4.08 => 4.284 maxVelocity: 296.0 => 306.0 Incursus agility: 3.31 => 3.4755 maxVelocity: 334.0 => 344.0 Tristan agility: 3.85 => 4.0425 maxVelocity: 296.0 => 306.0 Enyo agility: 4.128 => 4.3344 maxVelocity: 278.0 => 288.0 Ishkur agility: 4.072 => 4.2756 Helios agility: 4.36 => 4.578 maxVelocity: 320.0 => 330.0 Ares agility: 3.1 => 3.255 Taranis agility: 3.1 => 3.255 Federation Navy Comet agility: 3.3 => 3.465 maxVelocity: 370.0 => 375.0 Daredevil agility: 3.39 => 3.5595 Tippia doesn't really need to produce any evidence, since the agility numbers are exactly the same as the current inertia modifier numbers. It only makes sense to assume the agility attribute is just the inertia modifier under a different label.
Roime Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 3	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:47:00 - [16] - Quote I fly the Incursus a lot in frig fleets, or should I say, I die in it a lot. Thanks Reds for consistently choosing me as 1st primary <3 Because of only two low slots, grid modules aren't a viable option on the Incursus, that leaves you with the Ancillary Current Router rig to increase pg. True, if you don't primary the Incursus, it will hurt your boats, Neutron version does super dps (and it is plenty fast enough to get in range)... but you can forget tank with Neutrons. You can fit a 200mm and DCUII with Ions (mandatory prop, of course, and 1xAnc rig), but even then the tank is thin compared to Rifters and Amarr frigs, and the dps advantage is meh, if any. Probably none. Even if you drop down to Electrons, you need 3 Anc rigs to fit a 400mm plate on Incursus. 75mm rails will leave room for the 400mm plate, but then it's not exactly a dps beast. So, my point is that the Incursus probably won't be OP against other frigs with the proposed buffs, it would just be a bit tankier. I don't see a faster Neutron+400mm plate Incursus overthrowing the Rifter, as it is still slower and has worse range. Tristan, on the other hand, is a different beast and could possibly become a tad too powerful.
Vachir Khan TriSeq Defence Group 21	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:50:00 - [17] - Quote Destination SkillQueue wrote: Tippia doesn't really need to produce any evidence, since the agility numbers are exactly the same as the current inertia modifier numbers. It only makes sense to assume the agility attribute is just the inertia modifier under a different label. Bolded the bit people need to realise. Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Mart Allini Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire 8	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:52:00 - [18] - Quote The grid and cpu changes on the light blasters are really not that big. Take the light neutron blaster II for example: 1 powergrid and 1 less cpu per gun. On an incursus, that frees 3 PG and 3 CPU. With that a fit requiring a MAPC will still require it. The changes just make it a little bit less headache inducing to fit your damn t1 frigate
Bomberlocks CTRL-Q 20	Posted - 2011.10.27 11:58:00 - [19] - Quote I'm really looking forward to flying an Enyo that doesn't automatically lose to a wolf.
Uppsy Daisy Deteis Industries 5	Posted - 2011.10.27 12:02:00 - [20] - Quote Tippia wrote: The problem is: there is no GÇ£agilityGÇ¥ stat. Look at the same ships in the item database, and you'll notice those exact same GÇ£agilityGÇ¥ numbers listed under the heading Inertia Modifier. GÇ£AgilityGÇ¥ is just something we players (not quite incorrectly, but counter-intuitively) call it because GÇ£inertia modifierGÇ¥ is such a clumsy and nondescript term. Quote: Tippia doesn't really need to produce any evidence, since the agility numbers are exactly the same as the current inertia modifier numbers. It only makes sense to assume the agility attribute is just the inertia modifier under a different label. Tippia, thank you. I will correct the post. Destination SkillQueue, that is evidence... Will correct.

Uppsy Daisy Deteis Industries 5	Posted - 2011.10.27 12:04:00 - [21] - Quote Bomberlocks wrote: I'm really looking forward to flying an Enyo that doesn't automatically lose to a wolf. If the Enyo is the problem, surely that could be fixed by buffing the Enyo's PG and CPU not buffing all small blasters?
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations 0ccupational Hazzard 2	Posted - 2011.10.27 12:05:00 - [22] - Quote Tippia wrote: They get an increased inertia modifier, which leads to lower agility. The problem is that the data dump that is floating around is calling this attribute GÇ£agilityGÇ¥, which is rather contrary to what it actually does (even though it is, indeed, a large part of the agility calculation). It's a clash of terminology, if you like. The game doesn't really have any concept of agility GÇö just Mass +ù InertiaMod GÇö and we as players have come to call the latter agility becauseGÇª wellGÇª it's part of the formula for what we think of as agility, and mass is already mass. The problem with calling one thing something more familiar like this is that the thing in question does the opposite of what our chosen synonym usually conveys. Just bumping for informational purpose. Also, agility mods like i-stabs have negative "agility"/inertia modifier. CCP, can we have a statement about the agility changes ? thx
Tristan North The Scope 29	Posted - 2011.10.27 12:09:00 - [23] - Quote Incursus have 344 m/s max speed and less agility. How can compete with a rifter that is faster, have more agility and range? Gallente need more agility and less max speed, so it's easier to come close (agility-acceleration) but it's harder to not let the target escape. (less max speed)
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us 15	Posted - 2011.10.27 12:33:00 - [24] - Quote I'm confused about one thing: What on earth could justify an agility nerf for Caldari ships. They don't get the max speed boost, and all Caldari railboats are essentially flying bricks with about damage dealing capability as an inflatable dingy. Oh, I know, let's make 'em even worse just to be on the safe side. Aside from that, yeah the Ishkur and Taranis does not need a boost. But then I thought most people said small blasters were fine. As far as I've gathered, the biggest problem stems from large blasters. Medium blasters are a bit meh, I'll admit, but small ones seem okay'ish to me.
Zoe Alarhun The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation 42	Posted - 2011.10.27 12:35:00 - [25] - Quote Use a tristan not a incursus if you compare Combat frigates. A tristan can take a rifter no problems (assuming equal sp and skill). A closer comparison would be a Breacher vs Incursus (looking at tiering). Agility and speed are both getting buffed for gallente which will make the Tristan vs Rifter even better matchup (for the Tristan). EDIT - no agility nerf, it's a agility buff.
Tsubutai The Tuskers 15	Posted - 2011.10.27 12:46:00 - [26] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Even if this leads to Gallante ships being the FoTM for a bit, I am relaxed about this. They've been in the wilderness for 4 years; let them warm their toes at the fire a while. Gallente frigates have pretty much always been at or near the top of their respective piles, though; the Comet, Ishkur, and Taranis are all arguably best-in-class, and the Tristan's a very credible brawler (lousy tackler, though).
Tristan North The Scope 29	Posted - 2011.10.27 12:56:00 - [27] - Quote Zoe Alarhun wrote: Use a tristan not a incursus if you compare Combat frigates. A tristan can take a rifter no problems (assuming equal sp and skill). A closer comparison would be a Breacher vs Incursus (looking at tiering). Agility and speed are both getting buffed for gallente which will make the Tristan vs Rifter even better matchup (for the Tristan). EDIT - no agility nerf, it's a agility buff. It is an AGILITY NERF The Tristan is even less fast/agile then the Incursus, also less dps/more tank. How can it compete with a Rifter? Just adding 10 m/s?
Roime Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 3	Posted - 2011.10.27 13:00:00 - [28] - Quote Zoe Alarhun wrote: Use a tristan not a incursus if you compare Combat frigates. A tristan can take a rifter no problems (assuming equal sp and skill). A closer comparison would be a Breacher vs Incursus (looking at tiering). Agility and speed are both getting buffed for gallente which will make the Tristan vs Rifter even better matchup (for the Tristan). EDIT - no agility nerf, it's a agility buff. Yes, Tristan is the ship that should be compared to the Rifter, but due to split weapon system the Tristan requires more SP to be competitive. But tbh, this is common for all good Gallente ships.
Roime Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 3	Posted - 2011.10.27 13:01:00 - [29] - Quote And what comes to the agility nerf/buff discussion, CCP most probably meant it as a buff, but derped.
Zoe Alarhun The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation 42	Posted - 2011.10.27 13:01:00 - [30] - Quote It already compete's with the rifter - go on my killboard right now and look (yes I'm new to pvp so I don't have a great win/loss, but I win more than I lose) and look at how many rifters I kill in my Tristan. It's not a bad ship at all - it already competes VERY well. If you look in game there's no agility stat. They are improving IM, look at Tippia and many other's posts if you don't believe me. It's got same slot layout as rifter. It's got same tank. It's marginally slower. It has WAY higher damage output when fighting at frigate range, Auto's have larger damage on paper but they usually in fall off - if they come into their auto optimal you kill their faces off with overheated blasters, rockets and drone. Above applies to Tristan. Incursus is alot more squishy if you don't fly the 400mm plater + 75mm railgun version. But then it's slow and has horrible handling - on the up side 5km optimal with antimatter is bad ass.



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