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Lord Draylon
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:16:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Lord Draylon on 21/12/2005 23:20:02
Face it, the bounty system has been useless since the start of the game 3 years ago.
Too easy to exploit for it to really work.
Now what if the bounty was placed on the ship he was flying instead of him.
Lets think about this...
Now mr. badazz pirate can no longer scam the bounty with a non-related pal. He would have to lose the ship in order to collect the bounty. And as we all know most of the hardcore pirates are using ships with much more value than a typical bounty prize.
But what if mr. pirate wants to sell the ship?
The trade system detects the ship to be illegal and confiscates it or bans the pirate from selling it on the public market.
What if the pirate transfers the ship to another player or corp? Bounty tag transfers along with the ship and the player interested in the ship would see the nice fat bounty on it and would have second thoughts going thru with the transfer.
What if the pirate decides to put the ship with a fat bounty in storage. Go right ahead. I would love to see how long a player would let a tech2 bship collect dust.
From a role-player perspective it makes more sense to place bounties on ships. After all aren't the ships suppose to have crews? Aren't they all responsible for the captain's deeds?
Sure measures would have to be taken to avoid griefing like setting min bounty levels depending on class of ship. So some poor newb doesn't get a 5 mil bounty on his little frig from some griefer.
Now we have a bounty system that works and we can see that element finally get into play.
I wonder how many player pirates are going to hate this idea. hmmm
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Na'Axin
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:19:00 -
[2]
so does this take effect to the ship the player is flying at the time the bounty is placed?
as in:
shoot player, get in shuttle, player places bounty, you blow up shuttle and collect bounty?
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Solanoid
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:25:00 -
[3]
every game ive ever played with a bounty system has been abused theres no way to stop it. by choosing ship over player makes it easier to exploit.
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Zarithas
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:26:00 -
[4]
This is one of the best, most simple solutions to a very large problem, but it has a big problem of its own. The only way this could be done is if you meet the person you want to place a bounty on face-to-face, and that's where the problems start. I'd say 9 out of 10 people would not want to meet the person they're going to place a bounty on, especially someone who you want to catch in a very good ship.
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Lord Draylon
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:29:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Na'Axin
so does this take effect to the ship the player is flying at the time the bounty is placed?
as in:
shoot player, get in shuttle, player places bounty, you blow up shuttle and collect bounty?
Notice how you get an email stating who killed and with what? All they need to do now is record the ship that shot you and earmark that for the bounty.
So this retribution system that is already in place would make it easy to place a bounty on the ship that killed you.
Think about it. There is no real way to scam a system like this.
Oh what about a pirate who just wants to repackage his "well earned" ship. No problem, force the pirate to pay off his "well earned" bounty before he can repackage his ship.
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:34:00 -
[6]
far too easy to abuse. got a bounty? strip your modules, get a mate to blow you up, you've just collected the bounty without losing your implants.
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macro hunters - join channel MacroIntel |
Copine Callmeknau
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:35:00 -
[7]
Now I'm ****ed off, I woke up with a brainwave and was going to post it in the forums, but now I've found you've done it first
>_<
Obviously I think it's an awesome idea, sure it has the possibility of being exploited, but nowhere near as much as the current system.
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With five million sheep in this army
I seem to be the only one fit to command
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:37:00 -
[8]
keep the pod bountry system and bring in a contract killer system ie player 1 (apply to NPC corps only) takes out a contract on player 2 - palyer 2 can give it to a 3rd party to carry out (single character only) tie it in with the aggression system as well as removing protection for plyaers in NPC corps make it so u can pay concord 2 mil ISK a day to hunt em down (enough cost to make it vaiable but expensive) and also each player can only have 1 contract on them at once and or a 3 day break of protection between contracts.
Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw. |
Wesley Harding
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:39:00 -
[9]
Project rebirth makes it even easier for people to exploit bounties.
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Lord Frost
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:40:00 -
[10]
Bounties, as they are now, are pretty pointless... I agree on that. But, bountying the ship could also be a problem.
I think the real issue here is that people want to be able to collect the bounties, without having the "wanted" player exploit the bounty system for himself. There is no sure way to stop a playier from collecting his oun bounty, due to the use of many alts and multiple accounts.
So what can be done? ... perhaps let those with bounties unable to increase their standings until it is claimed... perhaps put out a skill that permits people to shoot at wanted players with some sort of time frame and secrecy.
bounty killer skill...
lvl 1 - able to select and target 1 invidual per week for 1 hour.
lvl 2 - 2 people for 2 hours
lvl 3 - 3 people for 3 hours
lvl 4 - 4 people for 4 hours
lvl 5 - 5 people for 5 hours
... of course with a few kinks to be worked out... but its a good idear.
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Copine Callmeknau
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:45:00 -
[11]
Well look at it atm.
Current:
Player A has 200M bounty and 100M BS.
Player A switches to a shuttle, uses friend (player B) to collect bounty. 100M split between them. BS not lost = 100M profit for each player.
Proposed:
Player A has 200M bounty on his 100M BS
Player A strips BS, uses friend (player B) to collect bounty. 100M split between them. BS destroyed, replacement is 100M = 0 profit for player A.
Hence it will cut abuse, as the cost of the ship is taken out of what you make from bounty abuse.
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With five million sheep in this army
I seem to be the only one fit to command
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Lord Draylon
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lord Frost
Bounties, as they are now, are pretty pointless... I agree on that. But, bountying the ship could also be a problem.
I think the real issue here is that people want to be able to collect the bounties, without having the "wanted" player exploit the bounty system for himself. There is no sure way to stop a playier from collecting his oun bounty, due to the use of many alts and multiple accounts.
So what can be done? ... perhaps let those with bounties unable to increase their standings until it is claimed... perhaps put out a skill that permits people to shoot at wanted players with some sort of time frame and secrecy.
bounty killer skill...
lvl 1 - able to select and target 1 invidual per week for 1 hour.
lvl 2 - 2 people for 2 hours
lvl 3 - 3 people for 3 hours
lvl 4 - 4 people for 4 hours
lvl 5 - 5 people for 5 hours
... of course with a few kinks to be worked out... but its a good idear.
Think about it...who in their right mind would blow up their own t2 bship for a 20 or 50 million bounty.
By the time a pirate earned a bounty to equal his ship's stripped down value, he would have been killed 10 times over.
think about it.
The database already has a unique id assigned to each ship a player owns. It's built into relational database design by default.
So there is no way you can fool the system.
Now pirates would really have to sweat their bounty values.
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Orb Lati
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:55:00 -
[13]
surely the best solution would be to have a payout from the pilots bounty pool based on the ship type and clone replacment cost.
say player A has a bounty of 100M isk.
You engage him while hes flying a Apoc (with premium insurace approx 30M isk).
if you manage to kill the ship you get 30M out of the 100M bounty.
Now say Player A has an high quality clone and you manage to pod him then you get the cost of the clone.
This would keep happening until the actual bounty money gets used up.
The advantage of this is that there would be no benifit to Player A trying to destroy his own ships or pod himjself as there would be no profit.
While the bounty is no where near the amount some players tend to amass this type of system would remove just about all the expolit points of the current bounty system.
The only trouble would be the fact that Player A would limite ship use to very cheap ships...which may be considered a penalty iin itself.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible"
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Lord Frost
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:56:00 -
[14]
what's stoppin the guy from just buying another ship? what about people putting bounties on frigs? that would be kinda silly.
I also had another idea about the bounty kill skill... what if the player with the skill had to have a minimun 5.0 faction standing in the sovereingty where they kill took place. now that would open up some interesting gameplays.
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.21 23:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lord Draylon
Think about it...who in their right mind would blow up their own t2 bship for a 20 or 50 million bounty.
50 mil bounty? self-destruct your BS, collect 105m insurance and 50m bounty, buy and insure a new BS and still end up with more than you had.
if bounty > insurance cost on a T1 ship, then self-destruct for fun and profit.
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macro hunters - join channel MacroIntel |
Macro Slasher
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Posted - 2005.12.22 00:03:00 -
[16]
It just sounds absolutely unrealistic that the bounty would follow a ship. They are only tools...
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Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2005.12.22 00:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lord Draylon
From a role-player perspective it makes more sense to place bounties on ships. After all aren't the ships suppose to have crews? Aren't they all responsible for the captain's deeds?
You were making perfect sense right up until here. I think the exact opposite is true, in reality the bounties would be set on people and the crews wouldn't be held responsible for what their captain did.
Originally by: Lord Draylon
Sure measures would have to be taken to avoid griefing like setting min bounty levels depending on class of ship. So some poor newb doesn't get a 5 mil bounty on his little frig from some griefer.
Why not? Poor noob gets a 5mil ISK bounty on his 20K ISK Condor. Get his other newb friend to blow it up and they split the 4,980,000 ISK.
Originally by: sonofollo
keep the pod bountry system and bring in a contract killer system ie player 1 (apply to NPC corps only) takes out a contract on player 2 - palyer 2 can give it to a 3rd party to carry out (single character only) tie it in with the aggression system as well as removing protection for plyaers in NPC corps make it so u can pay concord 2 mil ISK a day to hunt em down (enough cost to make it vaiable but expensive) and also each player can only have 1 contract on them at once and or a 3 day break of protection between contracts.
Trying to read this made my brain hurt. Punctuation is your friend.
Originally by: Orb Lati
surely the best solution would be to have a payout from the pilots bounty pool based on the ship type and clone replacment cost.
say player A has a bounty of 100M isk.
You engage him while hes flying a Apoc (with premium insurace approx 30M isk).
if you manage to kill the ship you get 30M out of the 100M bounty.
Now say Player A has an high quality clone and you manage to pod him then you get the cost of the clone.
This would keep happening until the actual bounty money gets used up.
The advantage of this is that there would be no benifit to Player A trying to destroy his own ships or pod himjself as there would be no profit.
While the bounty is no where near the amount some players tend to amass this type of system would remove just about all the expolit points of the current bounty system.
The only trouble would be the fact that Player A would limite ship use to very cheap ships...which may be considered a penalty iin itself.
I also like this idea VERY much.
Originally by: Macro Slasher
It just sounds absolutely unrealistic that the bounty would follow a ship. They are only tools...
Exactly, from a roleplaying perspect it doesn't work. But from a practical/game mechanics perspective, it would be a BIG improvement.
--------------------------------[04:04:04] Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk |
Lord Draylon
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Posted - 2005.12.22 00:33:00 -
[18]
Again, it makes no sense to waste 5 million bounty on a player in a T1 frigate. Might as well donate the 5 million to the player directly. The bounties would fit the crime.
I find it really hard to believe you can abuse the insurance system so that you can still make a profit off a bounty. Might as well trying to cheat the system using manufacturing and insurance.
Oh and this thing about ships being tools?
Do you remember the german battleship called the Bismark? Now ask yourself who remembers the Captain of that ship? The British wanted that ship bad...so bad in fact they sent a large armada after it. They could give a rat's butt on who the captain was. Or how about the german subs. I disctinctly remember a movie being made that had the sub name in the title and not the captain.
The system I propose is easy to implement and doesn't require an elaborate ruleset.
But keep trying to shoot it down, who knows maybe something good will come of it.
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Gonada
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Posted - 2005.12.22 00:38:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Gonada on 22/12/2005 00:38:09
this is one of the leading contenders for the stupidest post of the year i think.
you bounty the guy, not the ship hes in?
bounty the ship? wtf kinda drugs you on? ahh wait, this sounds like another carebear rant.
way to easy to exploit it any other way, and why would you want it any other way?
completely retarded.
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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Lord Draylon
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Posted - 2005.12.22 00:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Gonada
Edited by: Gonada on 22/12/2005 00:38:09
this is one of the leading contenders for the stupidest post of the year i think.
you bounty the guy, not the ship hes in?
bounty the ship? wtf kinda drugs you on? ahh wait, this sounds like another carebear rant.
way to easy to exploit it any other way, and why would you want it any other way?
completely retarded.
I think I see my first bonafide pirate whine.
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Lord Frost
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Posted - 2005.12.22 01:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Gonada
Edited by: Gonada on 22/12/2005 00:38:09
this is one of the leading contenders for the stupidest post of the year i think.
stupidest? ... stupidest? hmmmmm
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Drusan
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Posted - 2005.12.22 01:32:00 -
[22]
Corrolary idea...
I agree bounties as they stand now make very little sense. And that is a shame from my point of view.
However, As it stands the problem is that the victim of a bounty stands to profit. In the real world of course, this wouldn't happen because let's face it, being bountied in our world has lasting consequences. And that is what is missing from the current bounty model, those lasting consequences to someone with a large bounty on them.
Perhaps the issue is that bounties are only claimed in the portions representive of the value of the ship they were flying when they died?
So, bounty the poor pirate while he's in a shuttle, you stand to collect around 10k, deducted from the bounty on his head. Perhaps you are also paid out the average value of the implants they lost?
Having said this, the bounty remainder is still there, as incentive to kill the target again. Can the bounty target get killed repeatedly in shuttles by a buddy? Sure can. But he's not getting any richer doing so. And if we assume that our free market economy is working at all, the average value of their ships should be a reasonably deducable metric for how much a given bounty pays out.
This could also mean that the portion of a large bounty would carry a payout commensurate to the risks you undertook taking them out.
The current bounty system operates on a principle like the real world where getting dead once is totally sufficient. As this is not the case, the bounty model needs to account for the resurrection factor and ability to plan to minimize losses.
This is less punishing and more internally viable than another idea i've seen discussed which is to cause skill point loss equal to bounty values, or some other skill point based permanent effect.
Drusan
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Farjung
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Posted - 2005.12.22 01:49:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lord Draylon
Notice how you get an email stating who killed and with what? All they need to do now is record the ship that shot you and earmark that for the bounty.
So this retribution system that is already in place would make it easy to place a bounty on the ship that killed you.
Here you're assuming that it's just someone who has had their ship blown up that wants to place a bounty. What about someone who keeps having to safespot when said pirate enters local, and is irritated by this and wants to make life harder for the pirate by placing a bounty? Or someone whose corpmate got killed by said pirate? Or someone who just doesn't like the pirate because he smacktalks a lot and is generally obnoxious? How about if on Monday I kill Player X while flying a thorax, on Tuesday while I'm flying a taranis, on Wednesday in a megathron, and on Thursday I start attacking him in a taranis, realise I won't be able to take him out with the ranis so switch to a dominix and finish him with that, while on Friday he gets fed up and wants to place a bounty on me?
I fly multiple ships for PvP - which ship would get the bounty placed on it in any of the above cases?
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Drusan
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Posted - 2005.12.22 02:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Farjung
Originally by: Lord Draylon
Notice how you get an email stating who killed and with what? All they need to do now is record the ship that shot you and earmark that for the bounty.
So this retribution system that is already in place would make it easy to place a bounty on the ship that killed you.
Here you're assuming that it's just someone who has had their ship blown up that wants to place a bounty. What about someone who keeps having to safespot when said pirate enters local, and is irritated by this and wants to make life harder for the pirate by placing a bounty? Or someone whose corpmate got killed by said pirate? Or someone who just doesn't like the pirate because he smacktalks a lot and is generally obnoxious? How about if on Monday I kill Player X while flying a thorax, on Tuesday while I'm flying a taranis, on Wednesday in a megathron, and on Thursday I start attacking him in a taranis, realise I won't be able to take him out with the ranis so switch to a dominix and finish him with that, while on Friday he gets fed up and wants to place a bounty on me?
I fly multiple ships for PvP - which ship would get the bounty placed on it in any of the above cases?
Which illustrates the problem that there are really only 2 points of absolute control the Bounty issuer can rely on.
One being the size of the bounty they wish to issue.
The second being the effects of the bounty coming into effect upon defeat (however you wish to define defeat) on the part of the bounty-ee.
Any revisions to the system in place have to account for making sure that the bounty system is consistent and fairly absolute in its effects. It's currently the fact that the sting of a bounty are changable that has caused a large portion of the current problems after all.
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Hohenheim OfLight
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Posted - 2005.12.22 02:39:00 -
[25]
Not read all the way down so going to sudjest some stuff dont know if its been said before.
How about changeing it so that bountys can not beclaimed by any one in a noob corp, or and one in the same corp as the guy with the bounty, or any one you have set to negative standings.
This way its stops his mates claiming it, its stops him getting mates in another corp claiming it (Well one you know about by setting them to neg standings) and it stops him jumping into a noob corp, again if u have th orginal corp set to neg standings.
I am sure there is huge holes in there some where but hwat the hey.
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Contribute to the buy Hohenheim a carrier fund in game now! |
SAjunidog
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Posted - 2005.12.22 04:26:00 -
[26]
Edited by: SAjunidog on 22/12/2005 04:27:52
As Jennai (LJC is still together, what?) said, you completely ignore the whole insurance thing.
Although I doubt self-destruct would work, the whole get a friend to blow you up thing still would.
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Lord Draylon
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Posted - 2005.12.22 05:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Farjung
Originally by: Lord Draylon
Notice how you get an email stating who killed and with what? All they need to do now is record the ship that shot you and earmark that for the bounty.
So this retribution system that is already in place would make it easy to place a bounty on the ship that killed you.
Here you're assuming that it's just someone who has had their ship blown up that wants to place a bounty. What about someone who keeps having to safespot when said pirate enters local, and is irritated by this and wants to make life harder for the pirate by placing a bounty? Or someone whose corpmate got killed by said pirate? Or someone who just doesn't like the pirate because he smacktalks a lot and is generally obnoxious? How about if on Monday I kill Player X while flying a thorax, on Tuesday while I'm flying a taranis, on Wednesday in a megathron, and on Thursday I start attacking him in a taranis, realise I won't be able to take him out with the ranis so switch to a dominix and finish him with that, while on Friday he gets fed up and wants to place a bounty on me?
I fly multiple ships for PvP - which ship would get the bounty placed on it in any of the above cases?
In time the bounties would accumulate on all your ships. The guy placing on your ship is still getting posssible payback since your ship will be a ripe target for a fat bounty. I you decide to jump in another ship...so be it. You still have to deal with your first ship having a bounty so over time you will pay for your deeds.
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Lord Draylon
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Posted - 2005.12.22 05:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: SAjunidog
Edited by: SAjunidog on 22/12/2005 04:27:52
As Jennai (LJC is still together, what?) said, you completely ignore the whole insurance thing.
Although I doubt self-destruct would work, the whole get a friend to blow you up thing still would.
Then why don't I go manufacture a ship then blow it up for the insurance? You know there are many ways to keep people from exploiting the insurance.
Here's one you pirate scum will love.
When you earn a bounty (THROUGH THE RETRIBUTION PROCESS) on your ship, it's automatically deducted from your insurance payoff. So basically you can't exploit the insurance. Since it only counts through retribution it can't be abused through griefing. A rich guy could not cancel all your insurance on all your ships unless you killed him with each of yours ships.
Face it, this will work if properly implemented. As it stands the bounty system does not work and has not worked for close to 3 years. Everyone who has a brain knows this.
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Flavia Clio
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Posted - 2005.12.22 05:29:00 -
[29]
Just some food for thought
How about a bounty hunter skill that lets you place a bond for the right to engage a wanted person.
The higher the skill the higher the security of space your allowed to hunt in. lev 1 is 0.5, lev 2 = 0.6, lev 3 = 0.7 ect.
Now when a bond is paid it will give the bounty hunter rights to shoot their target AND it gives the hunted person the right to shoot the bounty hunter. If the bounty hunter is killed the wanted person collects the bond. If the wanted person is killed by the Hunter. The Hunter receives both the bounty and his bond back. If nobody is killed within a month of the bond then itÆs either forfeited or the hunter will have to pay for an extension, Every time itÆs extended the bond doubles. If more than one bond is posted by multiple players and the Hunted is killed then everybody gets their bond back. If the Hunted is killed by a non bonded player then the person who killed him get the bounty and everybody that paid a bond get their isk back
This would encourage bounties to show themselves for fighting since they have something to gain. It would make a way to hunt bounties in higher sec space. The folks with big bounties will have big bonds to gain and make it worth risking their ships and equipment.
IÆm sure this would be open to some kind of exploit but I think it would work better than the current system.
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Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2005.12.22 05:33:00 -
[30]
If somebody attacks you with multiple ships, you should be able to choose which ship to bounty.
However, I'm not sure what you'd do if you're setting the bounty for reasons OTHER than being directly attacked (smacktalk, forcing you to safespot constantly, etc.). I mean if you can choose which ship, it stands to reason that you have to have come into contact with the ship at least once, you can't just get a list of all of the guys ships and pick one.
--------------------------------[04:04:04] Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk |
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