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O2 jayjay Nergal Tech Fatal Ascension 0	Posted - 2013.08.08 11:10:00 - [1] - Quote Greeting CCP and game members, I have read the description for the cloaking device and I just wanted to pitch the idea of scanning them down. Just because the device bends light around the ship doesn't mean scanners shouldn't be able to detect their alloy. I think it will put a nice little twist to the game and more of a challenge to AFK cloakies. Also when a scanner detects a cloakie it is only accurate within 100km. Once the scanner warps to its approximate location, it would then use a different ability to pin point its location thus reveling the cloakie to all fleet members. Like hunting a submarine. Just a suggestion. P.S.Also i think a Destroyer should have the ability to hunt cloakies so it can truly live up to its name as a Destroyer. O2 JayJay
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 15359	Posted - 2013.08.08 12:44:00 - [2] - Quote O2 jayjay wrote: Greeting CCP and game members, I have read the description for the cloaking device and I just wanted to pitch the idea of scanning them down. Just because the device bends light around the ship doesn't mean scanners shouldn't be able to detect their alloy. I think it will put a nice little twist to the game and more of a challenge to AFK cloakies. Also when a scanner detects a cloakie it is only accurate within 100km. Once the scanner warps to its approximate location, it would then use a different ability to pin point its location thus reveling the cloakie to all fleet members. Like hunting a submarine. Just a suggestion. P.S.Also i think a Destroyer should have the ability to hunt cloakies so it can truly live up to its name as a Destroyer. O2 JayJay So glad you could join us. I would like to point out the search feature on the forum, this helps you find threads of a very similar nature. You can then post in those threads and not create yet more threads, on exactly the same topic. Your Idea. As you idea is nothing new, nerfs cloaks and gives others more intel on top of the already powerful free intel tool you use, I'll have to say no thanks. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
O2 jayjay Nergal Tech Fatal Ascension 0	Posted - 2013.08.08 12:50:00 - [3] - Quote Sorry about that. I cant figure out how to remove this post. Can someone remove it for me?
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 15359	Posted - 2013.08.08 12:54:00 - [4] - Quote O2 jayjay wrote: Sorry about that. I cant figure out how to remove this post. Can someone remove it for me? You can ask for it to be locked. But if you don't, it will simply run it's course anyway. I'd like to point you to this thread. You'll gain quite a bit of perspective from it. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Gel Musana LOL a Sticky Situation 2	Posted - 2013.08.08 18:05:00 - [5] - Quote Sounds like you've been bullied out of the conversation. I thought the topic is very interesting. Ideology -ás-h-i-t -álist https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Gel%20Musana
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 5619	Posted - 2013.08.08 18:54:00 - [6] - Quote Can I also kick in the door to your CQ and eject you from station? Can I use probes to punt you out of POS bubbles? *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 15372	Posted - 2013.08.08 21:32:00 - [7] - Quote Gel Musana wrote: Sounds like you've been bullied out of the conversation. I thought the topic is very interesting. Really? How so? Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
SGT FUNYOUN Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Hoodlums Associates 70	Posted - 2013.08.08 22:34:00 - [8] - Quote Cloak scan down, this is the... 30 or 40th time I have read this topic on here in the last 6 months I think. So I say to you the same I say to all the rest... ... this is SciFi, and cloaks are supposed to be nearly undetectable, that's the point of a cloak... ... so... ...no.
Little Dragon Khamez Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition 306	Posted - 2013.08.08 22:40:00 - [9] - Quote SGT FUNYOUN wrote: Cloak scan down, this is the... 30 or 40th time I have read this topic on here in the last 6 months I think. So I say to you the same I say to all the rest... ... this is SciFi, and cloaks are supposed to be nearly undetectable, that's the point of a cloak... ... so... ...no. Agreed, the whole point of a cloak is not invisibility it's undetectability, which is a wholly different thing. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Maximus Aerelius PROPHET OF ENIGMA 235	Posted - 2013.08.08 22:46:00 - [10] - Quote O2 jayjay wrote: I have read the description for the cloaking device Aww how cute . Enough said. My Feature\Idea:-á Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Here's my tear jar > \|_\| < Fill 'er up!
O2 jayjay Nergal Tech Fatal Ascension 0	Posted - 2013.08.09 04:01:00 - [11] - Quote Okay most feed back from this was emotional crys. I was just pointing out the description with the cloaking device and thought it would be a cool feature to scan down a cloakie. No where did CCP add that the device makes the vessel undetectable. Also to balance it out, why not get ride of players that come up in local? Make it to where everything needs to be scanned down. That way cloakies can still cloak to spy/ambush on players and scanning ships will play a very important role in ensuring fleet security. Also i thought I posted on a suggestion forum when you can suggest things. I am all for constructed feed back but please dont cry when replying to me.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy 412	Posted - 2013.08.09 08:54:00 - [12] - Quote Gel Musana wrote: Sounds like you've been bullied out of the conversation. I thought the topic is very interesting. Except not...because it's the same thing over and over. Someone recently posted an exhaustive list of all the cloaking nerf-herdering posts; that one post should be made a sticky. We could number all the ideas and rebuttals thereGÇª then all we'd have to do is throw numbers back and forth - think of the space we'll save... -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á- [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 15380	Posted - 2013.08.09 08:57:00 - [13] - Quote O2 jayjay wrote: Okay most feed back from this was emotional crys. I was just pointing out the description with the cloaking device and thought it would be a cool feature to scan down a cloakie. No where did CCP add that the device makes the vessel undetectable. Also to balance it out, why not get ride of players that come up in local? Make it to where everything needs to be scanned down. That way cloakies can still cloak to spy/ambush on players and scanning ships will play a very important role in ensuring fleet security. Also i thought I posted on a suggestion forum when you can suggest things. I am all for constructed feed back but please dont cry when replying to me. People get niggley because of the nature of certain threads and the fact that they appear on a regular basis. It's all part and parcel of the features and Ideas section. The issue here, is more complicated than you first think. It's not surprising that people don't pick up on the actual mechanics at play, but I am amazed that many seasoned players still don't get it. But I digress. Local is the main culprit here. You see it gives out it's intel, 23.5/7 without bias and guaranteed. But due to the nature of various systems, it means that the instant intel from local, is better in some than in others. I'll explain. In high sec, local is really only good for war targets. But even then, you really have no idea who is going to attack you. Add to that the fact that anyone can dock in any station. So the power of local in high sec is vastly reduced, as the regular population there is far and away higher than sov null. In low sec, it's much the same. Although one should really look at everyone as being their enemy and for the most part, this is the case. People simply accept low, as being the wild west of Eve. But you can still dock at any station and there are restrictions on certain module uses. Local intel has it's uses here, but they are limited by how the area is used. In NPC null it's much the same as low sec, except for the module restriction. Pretty much anything goes and people accept that this is the case. Local's intel is limited in pretty much the same respect as low sec. Now we come to Sov null. This place is whole new ball game, due mostly to the fact that sov gives you the ability to lock people out of stations and the use of regular cynos. These limiting factors pigeon hole enemy and neutral players, leaving them out in the cold so to speak. Because of this, there are far less of the regular player base, going to these system Those that do, tend to be going for specific reasons. All of them bad for those with blue status to that sov. This then means local intel, is a perfect medium in that type of space. You see when they enter, you see when they leave. You have intel channels, telling you of movements of them as they travel through your sov space flicking in and out of local channels. So when someone comes to sov space looking for a little combat action, 2 things normally happen. Everyone docks or pos's up, or you get blobbed. The reason is, local tells them the moment you arrive and if the initial intel was good, you even know what ship they are flying. So how do you combat this? Well being as people are using local in such a way, why not use it against them? There are many ways to use local in this respect, but a safe spot and a cloak is the easiest. This means the local pilots now have a dilemma. They know you are there, they may know your ship and even suspect you of carrying a cyno. But they don't know when you will strike. It's at this point and the uncertainty factor that was introduced by using local's intel against them, that draws people here to complain about cloaks. Failing to see that it is in fact local's intel, that is being abused. *Now to changes.* Personally I like the status quo. I feel at adds flavour to the game, by allowing psychological warfare in this way. Others don't and wish to see it removed. CCP have for a long time, wanted to remove the intel from local. But as of yet, this has proven to be a rather impossible task. That and the fact we are in a social MMO where interact of the local channel kind, is viewed as a good thing. Nerfing cloaks is the call we see from many that post about AFKing. But nerfing the effect rather than the cause, will not help them remove AFKing. People will simply use other methods. Then we'll be inundated with yet more crys, wanting nerfs to those mechanics instead. That's not a healthy way to balance a game. People have suggested removing cloaked pilots from local. This would solve their issue with cloaked pilots, although balance in this regard is crucial. You could place more power in the hands of those cloaked with this change, so it needs to be done well. But I feel we'd be back to my point regarding using other methods, to illicit a response. As the current situation is actually balanced, due to locals intel power being reduced by cloaks and cloaks covert power being reduced by local, then we can't simply change one aspect without breaking another. The logical way to do this would be as follows: 1. Remove intel from local and replace it with a mechanic you need to use and work to gain your intel. But not to much as to become a chore. Difficult I know. 2. Create a system to detect cloaked ships. But this needs to be done in a way, that doesn't break their role of spying and gathering of intel. Difficult again. But while ever local remains in it's current form, to nerf cloaks would be rather silly and break more than it fixes. As let's face it, it fixes nothing. Hope this helps. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Vizvig Savage Blizzard Bright Side of Death 112	Posted - 2013.08.09 09:35:00 - [14] - Quote this is terrible brainless idea. AFK cloack is best choice for noob solo pvp, they can kill ships at x20 x100 more expensive than theyr own ship.
Sura Sadiva Entropic Tactical Crew 545	Posted - 2013.08.09 09:50:00 - [15] - Quote O2 jayjay wrote: No where did CCP add that the device makes the vessel undetectable. Actually, they did, just in the EVElopedia : *"Cloaking devices allow a ship to maneuver while remaining completely undetectable by outside sensors"* The idea is that cloacking devicces not only create a visual distortion to hide a ship but also reduce the ship signature to the point to be undetectable by electronic sensors; this is just the whole cloacking idea. Changing local and make everything in need to be scanned down is an intersting idea, and CCP applied it succesfully in WH. However I think the use of local is somenthing too consolidated now in the common gameplay to be easly changed everywhere without lot of other balancements
Jureth22 FLA5HY RED FLE5HY WARLARDS 114	Posted - 2013.08.09 12:13:00 - [16] - Quote not another thread about cloacking and tears.cloack is just fine,it doesnt not need to be scanned or otherwise its pointless right?
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 237	Posted - 2013.08.09 12:43:00 - [17] - Quote I'm still waiting for the explanation as to why people who have made the effort to exterminate anything non-blue in their area are somehow not earning the power that local brings in those circumstances. For all the whining people do about cloaks and the counter argument of 'because local', no one really explains how the useless tool of local in almost every other part of space suddenly (and effortlessly) becomes powerful in Sov Null. This is because it's not effortless. Camps have to be maintained on the gates, locals vetted before being set to blue, non complying pilots hunted and killed. Without those measures local would be as useless as it is elsewhere. Without constant, vigilant effort the protected space would not be safe. Local isn't some magical force eliminating threat--- that's your combat wing protecting your interests in the area doing that. And why the intense interest in only hunting lone PvE miners and ratters? What's the point there... if you were looking for PvP, I'd think that blob would be happy to show you some. If the point was to disrupt their activity and thereby weaken their organization... well, just showing up did that, if they safe or dock up they are not mining or ratting. Job done. I don't leave highsec anymore. It's just too much hassle to be someone who enjoys PvE in that environment---always having to run anytime someone shows up non-blue. If it was possible to competitively fight while competently fit for PvE, I'd give it more of a shot. But it's not. The only free in this equation is the risk free effortless threat projection afforded by cloaks.
Pobunjenik Direwolf-Rayet skylian Verge 65	Posted - 2013.08.09 13:30:00 - [18] - Quote No. Cloaking is fine. We should fix players bitching about cloaking. The players are broken. Neka mi se jave na+íi igra-ìi zainteresovani za ++ivot u WH.
TheGunslinger42 All Web Investigations 1621	Posted - 2013.08.09 13:34:00 - [19] - Quote Your idea is not balanced, and destroys countless playstyles. From reconnaissance to bombing runs to the entirety of wormhole space, you've now ruined it all. And... why? Why do you need the ability to scan down cloaked ships? You know they're in system, do stuff to bait them or catch them on gates/sites, etc.
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor 2347	Posted - 2013.08.09 14:26:00 - [20] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: I'm still waiting for the explanation as to why people who have made the effort to exterminate anything non-blue in their area are somehow not earning the power that local brings in those circumstances. But they are getting everything they earned. Right now, as of this moment, local is freely telling them the names of every pilot in the system. But they did not earn that by holding sov. They did not earn that by building a POS, or having an Outpost. All they had to do, was log into the game. The intel is free, and given to everyone. Mike Voidstar wrote: For all the whining people do about cloaks and the counter argument of 'because local', no one really explains how the useless tool of local in almost every other part of space suddenly (and effortlessly) becomes powerful in Sov Null. It is powerful exclusively because of opportunity, and opportunity alone. If the areas in null sec were more convenient for the non sov holders, the way it is in high and low sec, they would be present in those same numbers. But they can't dock in the stations, since sov owners have control over them. (Every NPC station has potential hostiles in it, you may have noticed) And because it is more risky to travel further between safe points, they choose safer routes. Those famous gate camps have a much easier job, simply because many players don't want to be bothered wasting all that time traveling, in risky space no less, just so they can do the same things they do already in other places. The remaining points you made failed, as they depended on the argument I have just countered. And as to cloaking itself? They did not earn the right to scan down cloaking ships. The game instead gives both sides complete intel through local chat. No single PvE pilot ever was killed in their home system, except through pilot error. They either made a mistake about another pilot being active, and undocked in an unprepared ship... OR They failed to prepare by aligning to a safe spot, and hitting warp when the hostile enters the system. All the cloaked pilot EVER did was take advantage of an opportunity, one handed to them by a mistake on a silver platter. How to Fix Local Chat, then hunting cloaked ships: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2369739#post2369739 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 513	Posted - 2013.08.09 19:28:00 - [21] - Quote Thread added. How to Fix Local Chat, then hunting cloaked ships: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2369739#post2369739 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 238	Posted - 2013.08.10 13:40:00 - [22] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: But they did not earn that by holding sov. They did not earn that by building a POS, or having an Outpost. Mike Voidstar wrote: For all the whining people do about cloaks and the counter argument of 'because local', no one really explains how the useless tool of local in almost every other part of space suddenly (and effortlessly) becomes powerful in Sov Null. If the areas in null sec were more convenient for the non sov holders, the way it is in high and low sec, they would be present in those same numbers. But they can't dock in the stations, since sov owners have control over them. Those famous gate camps have a much easier job, simply because many players don't want to be bothered wasting all that time traveling, in risky space no less, just so they can do the same things they do already in other places. The Sov holders had to put in time, effort, and Isk to create that opportunity. It didn't fall from the sky and it's not granted simply by logging in or everyone would have it. It is time, effort and isk being spent in an ongoing manner to keep it that way. If they didn't protect their space in an ongoing manner that security would not exist. Local is no more powerful in Sov space than it is anywhere else. The people who live there have created conditions so that they can use it better. That is reward for the effort and risk they took in holding that space. Creating those conditions is the combined effort of hundreds, if not thousands of pilots in an ongoing manner. One barely trained alt in a newbie frigate should not be able to effortlessly break that security indefinitely at no risk to itself.
Sura Sadiva Entropic Tactical Crew 547	Posted - 2013.08.10 14:22:00 - [23] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: The people who live there have created conditions so that they can use it better. That is reward for the effort and risk they took in holding that space. Creating those conditions is the combined effort of hundreds, if not thousands of pilots in an ongoing manner. One barely trained alt in a newbie frigate should not be able to effortlessly break that security indefinitely at no risk to itself. Thousands of pilots coordinating and putting effort to control an area and they're defeated by a single, barely trained (and maybe not evn at the keyboard) newbie frigate. I'd like to know what corp/alliance/coalition of genius is this :)
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor 2357	Posted - 2013.08.10 14:24:00 - [24] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Nikk Narrel wrote: But they did not earn that by holding sov. They did not earn that by building a POS, or having an Outpost. Mike Voidstar wrote: For all the whining people do about cloaks and the counter argument of 'because local', no one really explains how the useless tool of local in almost every other part of space suddenly (and effortlessly) becomes powerful in Sov Null. If the areas in null sec were more convenient for the non sov holders, the way it is in high and low sec, they would be present in those same numbers. But they can't dock in the stations, since sov owners have control over them. Those famous gate camps have a much easier job, simply because many players don't want to be bothered wasting all that time traveling, in risky space no less, just so they can do the same things they do already in other places. The Sov holders had to put in time, effort, and Isk to create that opportunity. It didn't fall from the sky and it's not granted simply by logging in or everyone would have it. It is time, effort and isk being spent in an ongoing manner to keep it that way. If they didn't protect their space in an ongoing manner that security would not exist. Local is no more powerful in Sov space than it is anywhere else. The people who live there have created conditions so that they can use it better. That is reward for the effort and risk they took in holding that space. Creating those conditions is the combined effort of hundreds, if not thousands of pilots in an ongoing manner. One barely trained alt in a newbie frigate should not be able to effortlessly break that security indefinitely at no risk to itself. Noone is saying that sov holding is free from effort. You have yet to counter my point, that they already get all the advantage they earned. And as local hands out it's intel to everyone all the time, it ONLY becomes useful when the opportunity to use it a certain way appears. If most pilots in local are neutral, using it to be warned of neutral presence still works. The problem is they are always present. If most pilots in local are blue, using it to be warned of neutral presence suddenly becomes more powerful, as that intel is not a commonplace event anymore. Pilots go where the least effort for the most reward occurs. Your sov space is secure as much because it is inconvenient to travel through, as it is from efforts to keep others out. Leverage has meaning. Especially in this context. How to Fix Local Chat, then hunting cloaked ships: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2369739#post2369739 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453
Verity Sovereign Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter 513	Posted - 2013.08.10 16:14:00 - [25] - Quote Oh look, this thread again
Onomerous Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 274	Posted - 2013.08.10 16:23:00 - [26] - Quote Sura Sadiva wrote: Mike Voidstar wrote: The people who live there have created conditions so that they can use it better. That is reward for the effort and risk they took in holding that space. Creating those conditions is the combined effort of hundreds, if not thousands of pilots in an ongoing manner. One barely trained alt in a newbie frigate should not be able to effortlessly break that security indefinitely at no risk to itself. Thousands of pilots coordinating and putting effort to control an area and they're defeated by a single, barely trained (and maybe not evn at the keyboard) newbie frigate. I'd like to know what corp/alliance/coalition of genius is this :) We got dibs on him/her!!! Can control an entire Alliance single handed.

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