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Mar vel
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Posted - 2005.12.23 08:49:00 -
[1]
Eve Developers:
You folks sit and pontificate about balance ad-nauseum. Got a "balanced" item for anti-HAC? Sure, you can get really specific setups for a BS and maybe be effective. Otherwise, SOL.
Call it idiot user syndrome, bad playing, whatever. I'm sure the flame mail will commence immediately commenting on my lack of skill, etc.
But with 23m sp's and a Raven I can;t defend myself in a 1:1 vs. a HAC. That smacks of Uber 4tw dog-pooh. So apparently what CCP is telling us is that the only way I can defend against a HAC is to fight in HAC v HAC; ergo, I have to spend 60 days training skills. FO guys. That sucks.
Bring in a HAC killer.
Not very happy with your *balance* atm.
Mar
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Felicity Glimmer
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Posted - 2005.12.23 08:52:00 -
[2]
a raven with a neut or 2, plus cruise launchers, web, scrambler, some shield tanking, suck his cap to nothing, byebye hac.
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Kuolematon
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Posted - 2005.12.23 08:53:00 -
[3]
Flying raven and you whine anti-hac setup? 
Hint: Heavy NOS or Heavy Neut == Dead HAC. 
________________________________________________________
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Hesprax
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:02:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Hesprax on 23/12/2005 09:02:38
Absolutely, heavy neuts and nos all pretty nasty to a hac ...and things get better for you now anyway, precision cruise missiles will be lethal to cruiser class ships.
And on another note, the assault version of the command ships (T2 battle-cruisers) look on paper at least, to me, to be pretty anti-hac, while battleships are anti-command ship and HAC's are often quite anti-bs. They all seem to balance each-other out on paper well enough, I guess time will tell on the real situation. You can fit a bs to be anti-anything anyway to be fair, they are unmatched in fitting flexibility and application. |
concordIS noob
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:06:00 -
[5]
Raven + heavy nos/neutr
cruises + webber/painter = kthxbye hac
But if BS > hac/T2 BC
Wat would be anti T2 BS? (in kali)
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Kael D'mende
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:08:00 -
[6]
BS < Carriers ;O)
Heavy nos/neut will kill a hac..
/Kael
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:15:00 -
[7]
Sorry, but your argument and logic is totally flawed.
You complain because you cant kill a HAc in your Raven
You want them to make an anti HAC ship
How exactly will this affect your inability to kill HACs in your Raven?
Loading sig, please wait... |
Arshes Nei
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:27:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Testy Mctest
Sorry, but your argument and logic is totally flawed.
You complain because you cant kill a HAc in your Raven
You want them to make an anti HAC ship
How exactly will this affect your inability to kill HACs in your Raven?
No no his logic is fine, he also complains about the training time of HACs, which means he is willing to fly another ship if its role is anti-HAC. I guess that means he wants a tech 1 anti-HAC ship whose skills you can train in the fraction of the time you would need for a HAC  .
To the op: If you have 23m SP and are 60 days away from HAC ... have you undocked and flown a ship yet? I mean 30 days for any races cruiser 5 if your attributes really suck, and the rest of the skills a 23 mil SP char should have anyway.
P.S. If you ever train for HAC to be anti-HAC and cause ravens are totally helpless against HAC ... Please tell us how your first PvP against those completly helpless and weak BS went, and dont mind the others in the thread they are lying, HAC are invincible. 
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nukem ts
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:29:00 -
[9]
Edited by: nukem ts on 23/12/2005 09:32:26
how do you want to get a cerb if he can fly 600m/s with a raven which fly like a turtle :D
webber and scrambler are not workingat the distance a cerb hold.
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:32:00 -
[10]
hacs can be killed by bs if they are fitted for it.
Remember hac are t2 ships and new recon ships t2 bcs will prolly beat hacs, especially the amarr ones with their cap suckage bonus.
In the end the hac has its niche as a fast assault ship while a bs can be an easy prey if not fitted correctly its these days often the other way around, the hunter becoming the prey.
Noone forces you to a **** setup and if u feel unsave about hacs fit to counter them with neuts or webs or targetpainters.
Last but not least dont forget the cost involved in flying and losing a fully kitted t2 hac compared to a t2 kitted t1 bs, not even to mention waitinglists/supply for the hacs.
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Arctic Angel
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: nukem ts
how do you want to get a cerb if he can fly 600m/s with a raven which fly like a turtle :D
That's called a webifier :) Seriously though, neutralizer+nos on a bs and a web + scrambler = dead hac. Of course this can be countered too...
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:38:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 23/12/2005 09:38:44
Originally by: nukem ts
Edited by: nukem ts on 23/12/2005 09:32:26
how do you want to get a cerb if he can fly 600m/s with a raven which fly like a turtle :D
webber and scrambler are not workingat the distance a cerb hold.
no cap = no mwd = 185 m/s basespeed (+ skills) = dead cerb.
Ontop you can smack a web if u want but thats not even needed.
If he is out of "scrambler" range aka 20km+ just warp out ?
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:41:00 -
[13]
specific setup on BS. works really well... that is ANTI-HAC ffs, you're flying the battleship that can deal with HACs almost as easily as a dom. And you're complaining. You suck...... plain and simple. And CCP can hardly be blamed for that.
Oh and balance isn't that a 23m sp bad raven pilot, can own my 34mil sp well flown HAC. Balance in that case a very dead raven, which is extremely unlikely even today cause ravens are quite idiot proof. That you think otherwise really really shows just how lacking your skill is.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.12.23 09:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mar vel
Eve Developers:
You folks sit and pontificate about balance ad-nauseum. Got a "balanced" item for anti-HAC? Sure, you can get really specific setups for a BS and maybe be effective. Otherwise, SOL.
Call it idiot user syndrome, bad playing, whatever. I'm sure the flame mail will commence immediately commenting on my lack of skill, etc.
But with 23m sp's and a Raven I can;t defend myself in a 1:1 vs. a HAC. That smacks of Uber 4tw dog-pooh. So apparently what CCP is telling us is that the only way I can defend against a HAC is to fight in HAC v HAC; ergo, I have to spend 60 days training skills. FO guys. That sucks.
Bring in a HAC killer.
Not very happy with your *balance* atm.
Mar
Command ships. Thanks, this thread is done. 
-Electrofreak
Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula |
Arshes Nei
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Posted - 2005.12.23 10:03:00 -
[15]
Originally by: nukem ts
Edited by: nukem ts on 23/12/2005 09:32:26
how do you want to get a cerb if he can fly 600m/s with a raven which fly like a turtle :D
webber and scrambler are not workingat the distance a cerb hold.
Either he is able to warp scramble you, then he is in nos range, or not. And raven doesnt have to "get" a cerb. It has superior range with cruises. And please no complaints that you cant kill a cerb at 100km with a raven, you cant kill any ship at 100km with a raven unless the pilot is a total donut.
I fly a cerberus myself, and while you can kill a raven with it, there is no way you can kill a raven that is setup especially to deal with HACs/cruisers, well maybe with a ****load of faction mods.
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Arshes Nei
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Posted - 2005.12.23 10:05:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Arshes Nei on 23/12/2005 10:06:53
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Originally by: Mar vel
Eve Developers:
You folks sit and pontificate about balance ad-nauseum. Got a "balanced" item for anti-HAC? Sure, you can get really specific setups for a BS and maybe be effective. Otherwise, SOL.
Call it idiot user syndrome, bad playing, whatever. I'm sure the flame mail will commence immediately commenting on my lack of skill, etc.
But with 23m sp's and a Raven I can;t defend myself in a 1:1 vs. a HAC. That smacks of Uber 4tw dog-pooh. So apparently what CCP is telling us is that the only way I can defend against a HAC is to fight in HAC v HAC; ergo, I have to spend 60 days training skills. FO guys. That sucks.
Bring in a HAC killer.
Not very happy with your *balance* atm.
Mar
Command ships. Thanks, this thread is done.
If the training time of a HAC is a problem for him i doubt he will be happy about command ships. 
Would be funny if he trained for command ships only to be killed by a raven though
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Tar om
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:20:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tar om on 23/12/2005 11:22:33
NOS/Bomb/YourChoiceHere phoon ftw!
many many options, and you can probably catch the slower HACs in a straight line if you're creative with your mids and lows.
edit: HACs don't like phoons anyway because HAC pilots don't like unpredictable enemies. HACs are specialised and need to know what they're up against.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
"The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." |
Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:27:00 -
[18]
Well, I know this goes agaist the current Eve way of doing things but the Anti-HAC is the HAC. Why does there have to be another class of ships just to kill them?
On another note, this is what I have considered dumb about this game. Ok, so a BS sucks at killing frigates/AF/Inties but they should not be that good at killing a BS either. For the really big expensive ships, it should take another big expensive ship to kill it.
Now I know that RL is a bad example, but up until the development of guided missiles, if you want to beat something whether it was battleship, aircraft, infantry, artillery, or calvery, you had to use a battleship, aircraft, infantry, artillery, or calvery. The best thing at killing, defending against a type of unit was always the same unit.
Now this is a game and that does not need to be so, but why have an Anti-HAC developed when it already exists, i.e. the HAC.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mar vel
Eve Developers:
You folks sit and pontificate about balance ad-nauseum. Got a "balanced" item for anti-HAC? Sure, you can get really specific setups for a BS and maybe be effective. Otherwise, SOL.
Call it idiot user syndrome, bad playing, whatever. I'm sure the flame mail will commence immediately commenting on my lack of skill, etc.
But with 23m sp's and a Raven I can;t defend myself in a 1:1 vs. a HAC. That smacks of Uber 4tw dog-pooh. So apparently what CCP is telling us is that the only way I can defend against a HAC is to fight in HAC v HAC; ergo, I have to spend 60 days training skills. FO guys. That sucks.
Bring in a HAC killer.
Not very happy with your *balance* atm.
Mar
train for a dominix
fill highs with nosfs
train drones too
HAC dead.
-------------------
Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you |
Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:48:00 -
[20]
I've killed an Ishtar with a NPC-fitted Dominix pre-RMR. Not sure it works today though, since drones flown by drone ships are almost impossible to pop with smartbombs. Short range HACs dies to Nos and Neutralizers, long range HACs can't kill a properly tanked BS alone.
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James Jupiter
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:54:00 -
[21]
If anyone supports the idea of an anti-hac ship, it should have 3 hi-slots, one gun/launcher to defend its self and 2 Neuts. It should get a bonus like -60% to activate Neuts, so it can suck ships dry but it should deal little to no damage.
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Soros
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:58:00 -
[22]
Never heard of a blasterthron..........
Scrap your raven
-= Soros =-
C6
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Berrik Radhok
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:59:00 -
[23]
A nosadom will kill any HAC in the game
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R31D
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:00:00 -
[24]
My Blasterthron can take on 2x deimos at once and now I've got a heavy nos fitted as well. Most BS should be able to deal with HACs
Free bumpage for all |
concordIS noob
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:04:00 -
[25]
Pointless thread imo.
If u lost a raven vs Hac it means u just end up with a bad fitting at the wrong moment or u sux :)
A raven (or actually any BS), can wtfpwn a hac. only thing u really need is a heavy nos/neutr. And raven is a very good ship to kill hacs, along with cruises.
If you wanna whine abt something go whine at T2 ammo
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mar vel
But with 23m sp's and a Raven I can;t defend myself in a 1:1 vs. a HAC. That smacks of Uber 4tw dog-pooh. So apparently what CCP is telling us is that the only way I can defend against a HAC is to fight in HAC v HAC; ergo, I have to spend 60 days training skills. FO guys. That sucks.
Let me introduce you to your new best friend, Mr. Heavy Nosferatu, and his shady cousin Mr. Heavy Energy Neutralizer. They will kill those pesky HACs dead, dead, dead.
You're welcome.
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Magunus
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Posted - 2005.12.23 13:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mar vel
Eve Developers:
You folks sit and pontificate about balance ad-nauseum. Got a "balanced" item for anti-HAC? Sure, you can get really specific setups for a BS and maybe be effective. Otherwise, SOL.
Call it idiot user syndrome, bad playing, whatever. I'm sure the flame mail will commence immediately commenting on my lack of skill, etc.
But with 23m sp's and a Raven I can;t defend myself in a 1:1 vs. a HAC. That smacks of Uber 4tw dog-pooh. So apparently what CCP is telling us is that the only way I can defend against a HAC is to fight in HAC v HAC; ergo, I have to spend 60 days training skills. FO guys. That sucks.
Bring in a HAC killer.
Not very happy with your *balance* atm.
Mar
Many of the above posters talk about different setups to beat HACs, so I won't go into that, but I have to ask the question. Wouldn't adding an anti-HAC ship to the game just shift the problem? Wouldn't people just start complaining that their BS can't beat the anti-HAC either? This doesn't make any sense.
'HAC is better than my Raven, so I want a better ship to kill HACs with.' Of course, the HAC will still be better than my Raven, and now there'll be a ship that's better than a HAC, which would be an order of magnitude better than my Raven.
---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Kinsy
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Soros
Never heard of a blasterthron..........
Scrap your raven
Never heard of a dhpgeddon either? 
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:28:00 -
[29]
...
bring a hac and i'll kill it with any bs, ok.
Only ship that could cause problems is some jamma ishtar/eagle/cerb, but that sort of stuff will kill you in 1vs1 anyway.
And if raven cannot defend vs hac, try fitting mega with rails and come back.(or amarr with beams or minmater with artys).
Raven is still f1-f8 pwn all no brainer ship. (well definitely less brainer than any other)
HatePeace LoveWar[ATUK] >
they ebayed the bs for
grain
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:30:00 -
[30]
HACs are clearly inferior to battleships and should automatically self-destruct if they dare activate any modules on said battleships. This is balanced kthx.
------------------------------------------------
Derailing threads with logic since 1992 |
n1r4
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:34:00 -
[31]
Edited by: n1r4 on 23/12/2005 15:34:05
You can kill Hac's with BC's
it's all about the setups, stop whining
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:40:00 -
[32]
lmao, i bet that the thread author got shot in his raven by HAC while trying to counter it with torps....
-=-
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Edhel
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:39:00 -
[33]
Actually BC's are quite adapt at killing HAC's, especially post RMR but obviously it depends on the HAC a whole lot.
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Mar vel
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Posted - 2005.12.23 17:55:00 -
[34]
:)
I can kill anything in anything, given enough intel on what I am fighting.
Re: skills: All told, training time to fly a fully-effective HAC is several months in the making. What if I don;t want to do that?
For unplanned encounters (read: not specifically designed BS setups for anti-HAC) - what options do I have other than donating my BS to a HAC assault?
My complaint is that a HAC can pop a ship that is supposed to be functionally several times its potential damage output: more shields, more raw power, more everything. The Nerf-bat has *balanced* everything to the point that everyone sucks against everyone 1:1,except AF/HAC v. everyone else. That's my point re: unblanaced.
I'm pointing out that to effectively counter a HAC in a 1:1 setup (*unplanned encounter*)I can't do that effectively without extending my skills to a HAC. What if I don't want to spend my time training HAC skills as the be-all to end-all; in that scenario, there is no balance for the HAC.
Obviously you have to be *prepared* for that type of an engagement, which obviously I was not. There's a huge diff in NPC setups and PvP setups. 'Natch. Of course I know nothing, never undock, and sit in a station all the time just training CareBear skills. Several of you have seen me about *in-country* and know that's not true.
I'm not complaining about losing ships; stuff happens.
The 2 most interesting comments, IMO:
1.
Originally by: n1r4
Edited by: n1r4 on 23/12/2005 15:34:05
You can kill Hac's with BC's
it's all about the setups, stop whining
2.
Originally by: Sky Hunter
lmao, i bet that the thread author got shot in his raven by HAC while trying to counter it with torps....
The first comment is the situation I am outlining.
The second comment is interesting since I was ambushed by a pilot who warped into a system so remote as to having had to been hanging out there as an alt. Not to mention that the assailant immediately warped to the system where I happened to be engaged in whacking a triple BS + escorts spawn. ....Just a little too concidental for my tastes.
SO I get to train some more skills. What else is new in Eve. I still think the HAC is not balanced in Eve with an antithesis- this has been discussed ad-infinitum since they were released.
It nvr ceases to amaze me how whacked these threads get in terms of adding commentary to a given idea/problem/thought. And I'd be willing to bet that a high percentage of the commenters are HAC pilots, ergo their disposition to the equation BS killed by HAC=crap pilot.
I can't wait for some of you armchair Quarterbacks to post something so I can take a dump on it. Several of you I know to almost always exclude any scenario that is 1:1 PvP: WolfPack hunting in HAC's and AF's affords you the bravery of being out of range. Apparently I'm not worthy of your presence.
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Frezik
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Posted - 2005.12.23 18:37:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Now I know that RL is a bad example, but up until the development of guided missiles, if you want to beat something whether it was battleship, aircraft, infantry, artillery, or calvery, you had to use a battleship, aircraft, infantry, artillery, or calvery. The best thing at killing, defending against a type of unit was always the same unit.
The Bismark was crippled by a biplane that was already considered obsolete. And the "until the development of guided missiles" bit is a cop-out. If it's kept to 1v1, a modern jet fighter could at least heavily damage a carrier or battleship (which is why carriers generally travel with a large support fleet).
In Eve, a lone cepter or AF cannot break the tank of any competent BS pilot. It can only do so in groups. Bringing in 5-10 small ships to take down one large ship sounds balanced enough to me.
----
"Well in this case, he's being flamed, and rightly so, for whinning about a game mechanic that doesn't actually exist." -Lorth |
Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.23 19:11:00 -
[36]
HAC shud have more combat focuse then BS like it has now, since HAC is:
1) Alot more skill intensive.
2) Alot more expensive.
3) Alot more fitting demands.(i.e. proposed to fit with T2 modules).
Exactly those points there are making HAC more combat focused ship. BS is combat ship, but it shudnt have any advantage over HAC with regular setup. Same as HAC got no advantage when its regulary fitted and engaged with close-range BS like Raven with cruise missles.
Solution is simple, use Cruise missles unless you know youll engage purely BS.
-=-
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