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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2005.12.23 10:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 23/12/2005 11:04:45
I hope this is the right place for this, if not please move it.
As we all know T2 modules and especially ships have become extremely expensive. While it would be nice to have more BPOs seeded there is still the problem of the random chance lottery system. I don't think the majority of the community likes that system and for good reason. Personally I think that in order to get a T2 print of any kind you should have to do some work.
My suggestion for a solution to the T2 supply problem is to allow R&D agents to offer BPs to mission runners, the system would work much like the LP system with other agents. RP would be collected the same as they are today but instead of there being a "drawing" there would simply be offers for different BPs just like other rewards are distributed with normal agents. There could be offers for not only BPOs but also for BPCs. BPC offers would ofcourse require fewer LP or RP. BPO offers may need an additional limitation so that the number is kept low and BPC runs could remain at something like 20 runs for a ship, higher for modules. The number of runs should be enough to make a small impact and encourage competition but not nearly as much as a BPO.
In addition to this change to the R&D agents the current LP reward system could be tweaked slightly and the RP system would operate off the new model as well. Instead of collecting LP to a certain point and getting random offers from a pool of possiblities simply allow LP or RP to be "spent" on offers. Agents could have a "list" of rewards that cost a pre-set amount of LP or RP. At any time the person running missions may talk to their agent and "spend" LP on any reward from the pool. There would not be one offer a day, simply a lit of possible offers. This way the BPs that are in high demand can reach market faster and increase competition.
Balancing the amount of RP needed for a BPC or BPO would be important but it would alleviate much of the current problem without saturating the market, in addition acuiring a T2 BPO or BPC would require actual effort and not a random lucky draw.
Ideas, suggestions, objections?
Tech 2 Suggestion |
Bellum Eternus
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:00:00 -
[2]
Nice post Levin, good idea. :)
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MuumiLeader
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:02:00 -
[3]
ARRRR and for you peeps it means yes
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bUBbLeS
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:03:00 -
[4]
very good idea
atm it sux
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Vegeta
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:13:00 -
[5]
Funny you still have an old CFS signature.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:25:00 -
[6]
ffs no, not more agent running bias please.
What we need is for some way to incorporate the release of bpo's into interactive gameplay, not solo-mission running till you head drops off and you made enough RP for a Zealot BPO.
I Like the auction for RP CCP is thinking of implementing next to the research lottery. And I think that instead fo replacing the lottery and this auciotn with something else, we should look towards desinging more avenues of getting BPC's especially, and BPO's occasionally.
Maybe soveriegnty and research could finally be combined with reverse engineering, resulting in the ability to make T2 BPC's in pos for a certain price and with severe limitations ?
I don't know, but I do know that agent running needs to end as the unique source of tech2 blueprints, not confirmed and enhanced as being the unique source of tech2 blueprints. _______________________________________________
Power to the players !
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:30:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 23/12/2005 11:31:34
Originally by: Rod Blaine ffs no, not more agent running bias please.
What we need is for some way to incorporate the release of bpo's into interactive gameplay, not solo-mission running till you head drops off and you made enough RP for a Zealot BPO.
I Like the auction for RP CCP is thinking of implementing next to the research lottery. And I think that instead fo replacing the lottery and this auciotn with something else, we should look towards desinging more avenues of getting BPC's especially, and BPO's occasionally.
Maybe soveriegnty and research could finally be combined with reverse engineering, resulting in the ability to make T2 BPC's in pos for a certain price and with severe limitations ?
I don't know, but I do know that agent running needs to end as the unique source of tech2 blueprints, not confirmed and enhanced as being the unique source of tech2 blueprints.
Adding any kind of POS related system would be completely unfair. and adding any kind of system that requires an alliance is very very bad. As far as mission running to get a BPO or BPC I really don't see the problem. It should require time and effort to get a T2 BPO, not forming an alliance and farting poses all over a system then waiting. The solution to the supply problem is to vastly increase the number of producers by adding limited run T2 prints which take time to get. This way the production goes up but its not a freebie anymore.
Currently there is no way to obtain BPOs other than random luck, mission running and time investment have little if anything to do with it.
Tech 2 Suggestion |
Vargrh
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:39:00 -
[8]
Sounds good, however any new system adopted needs to accomodate those that have spent time building up R&D under the current system to try and win the lottery. Totally revamping the system might screw up someone that's spent months doing missions etc...
so there needs to be a realistic buy back of existing R&D points if changes are made.
Otherwise, I support this post 100%
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 23/12/2005 11:44:51
Originally by: Vargrh Sounds good, however any new system adopted needs to accomodate those that have spent time building up R&D under the current system to try and win the lottery. Totally revamping the system might screw up someone that's spent months doing missions etc...
so there needs to be a realistic buy back of existing R&D points if changes are made.
Otherwise, I support this post 100%
Yes any amount of RP you have now could be used to "buy" BPCs from your research agent, in addition the constant accumulation of RP should be stopped and the only way to get more should be to run missions. Basically RP would become LP for R&D agents and there would be no more T2 "lottery."
There would be no need to offer compensation as people who have RP would already be at an advantage.
Tech 2 Suggestion |
Angry Sheep
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Posted - 2005.12.23 11:49:00 -
[10]
ok û personally I am totally against the idea, BUT if you insist on agent running to get a BPC, then I would add this caveatà
When a LP BPC of æxÆ runs is dropped, there can only be for instance 20 of these rewards, once one BPC has been used it triggers the queue to re-seed another BPC for æyÆ loyalty points.
The BPC drop is available to the highest 1/10 percentile of the agent runners û i.e. the target is always moving for how many LP required. Once the example 20 drops of BPC has happened, these have to be used before the next one drops to replace the used one.
This at least keeps some semblance of rareness in the market.
It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:00:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 23/12/2005 12:03:38
Originally by: Angry Sheep ok û personally I am totally against the idea, BUT if you insist on agent running to get a BPC, then I would add this caveatà
When a LP BPC of æxÆ runs is dropped, there can only be for instance 20 of these rewards, once one BPC has been used it triggers the queue to re-seed another BPC for æyÆ loyalty points.
The BPC drop is available to the highest 1/10 percentile of the agent runners û i.e. the target is always moving for how many LP required. Once the example 20 drops of BPC has happened, these have to be used before the next one drops to replace the used one.
This at least keeps some semblance of rareness in the market.
I fail to see what is wrong with using agents to obtain ships designed by their respective corporations. Having dynamic RP requirements for the rewards would be good and a limit to the number of BPCs in game at once is also a good idea although in my opinion unecessary.
In addition the "random factor" on agent rewards whould be removed. If you have x amt of RP or LP you should have access to ALL rewards from that "tier" and below.
Tech 2 Suggestion |
Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:00:00 -
[12]
Problem I see altogether with mission running being related to T2 BPO's is that if you choose not to run missions because you don't enjoy them, you are totally barred from being gifted with a t2 bpo, regardless of watever else you do in eve
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:07:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 23/12/2005 12:09:12
Originally by: Neon Genesis Problem I see altogether with mission running being related to T2 BPO's is that if you choose not to run missions because you don't enjoy them, you are totally barred from being gifted with a t2 bpo, regardless of watever else you do in eve
So if you dont do the work you dont get the reward, I see nothing wrong with that.
If you want a faction Battleship you either go to a complex or you go run missions or you go do something to make isk and buy it from someone else that killed npcs/ran missions/ran complexes. The tech 2 BPO system is the ONLY aspect of eve that requires little if any investment of time and has little or no benefit from additional time investment. If you want a BPO or BPC then go make isk and buy it from someone who ran missions and got one.
What alternate system could you suggest that fairly rewards a time investment with BPOs or BPCs?
Tech 2 Suggestion |
Leowen
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:16:00 -
[14]
One word - Grinding
Eve has been designed from the ground up to NOT be a place where those who play 24/7 have an 'I Win' button, thus the skills system that differs from every other (afaik) MMO out there.
If you take away the random factor of the lottery, those that play 24/7 will rule this game. As things stand anyone has a chance to become a figure of power, and that is one of the great things about EVE imo.
Leo
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Effei Gloom
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:19:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Effei Gloom on 23/12/2005 12:22:02 Edited by: Effei Gloom on 23/12/2005 12:20:53 i agree the way R&D agents work isnt perfect, but i saw average prices for tech II ships + fittings falling, some are even down to 1/4 price (small towers lowered production cost of moon raws) i would like more the R&D agents in idea of scientists, so maybe more R&D points per day (motivated to research in beginning) but all 3-4 days (random) should be missions given out (research requiremtens to support agent research) or agent begins to give less points! So all R&D agent runners have more R&D point but still something to do from time to time and not just WAIT.
CEO of EXEC. - Outpost managment - |
Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:26:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 23/12/2005 12:26:24
Originally by: Leowen One word - Grinding
Eve has been designed from the ground up to NOT be a place where those who play 24/7 have an 'I Win' button, thus the skills system that differs from every other (afaik) MMO out there.
If you take away the random factor of the lottery, those that play 24/7 will rule this game. As things stand anyone has a chance to become a figure of power, and that is one of the great things about EVE imo.
Leo
Actually thats not true at all.
Lets say it takes 100 hours of gameplay to get a bpc. If you play for 10 hours a day you get one in 10 days, if you only have time to play for 2 hours a day it will take you 50 days. However, after 50 days of gameplay and the same time investment as the other player you actually get a reward.
Compare this to the current system, in which you may play for 2 years and not get a single thing, reguardless of the time you invest. The current system if anything rewards those that can play more because they can get more RP and beat out those that play less in a "random drawing." By changing the system as I suggested then everyone gets rewarded for their work, not just a lucky few.
CCP does work to eliminate grinding but it is an aspect of MMOs that cannot be avoided. There are people who actually do enjoy doing agent missions in Eve. those people will play and get rewards, if you want one of their rewards and dont like missions then go do whatever it is you DO enjoy that makes you money and buy a BPC from them.
It is impossible to eliminate grinding from the game however CCP has done a good job of making the "grinding" type of activities as interesting as possible, or at least they strive to.
Tech 2 Suggestion |
Archbishop
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Posted - 2005.12.23 12:39:00 -
[17]
Well first off agent running should have nothing to do with research. Whats the connection in a RL sense?
I once posted a detailed idea for R&D (including a chart) that would bring two new careers into Eve. The RESEARCHER and the EXPLORER.
#1 Explorer: The explorer would use explorer class starships to venture to far parts of the galaxy. There these special ships could collect small amounts of moon minerals and strange things from clouds stuff like that. CCP would have to create these new materials. They'd be found in only very remote areas (but in all systems). You'd really have to look for them. They could seed some places with "Jovian wrecks" and other odd things that could occasionally spit out some strange material or "part" of something. The explorer would then be able to sell these things on the market to scientists.
#2 Researcher: The researcher would be someone who conducts experiments. They'd use the materials the explorer finds along with other things to conduct their experiments and hope for success.
Heres how it worked:
Minor Experiment: The Researcher would put several items into a lab slot and "turn it on". There would be a high risk of failure in which case the items put in the lab would be lost forever (just like a real science experiment - if it fails you lose it). However if you succeed you get a "key", call it a blueprint or maybe a module of some type.
Major Experiment: When the Researcher gets 8-10 keys together (successful small experiments of certain types) he could conduct a major experiment in a labslot. This would have again a chance of failure (you'd lose 1/2 of your keys) but you'd have a chance at a breakthrough. They could do this so at first you'd have a 20% chance, if you conduct it again you'd have 40%, then 60%, so you'd eventually get SOMETHING for your hard work. As the percentage goes up you'd get a lower grade BPO or even a BPC. But you'd get something.
Details: They'd need to make some very specialized skills so everyone doesn't have a Researcher. It should be a legitimate career track like Industrialist or Combat Pilot.
Keeping the system "agent based" is a joke. Who does the research for these BPO's? The R&D agents? Then why isn't it strictly work based (LP) and why do some agents do nothing for two years. What did they go to a lousy school while these 7x winners went to MIT or something? What gives.
Agent running should have nothing to do with R&D. Agent running is a career track like building is or combat. They should have nothing to do with Research.
Come on CCP give us a real Research career path. Some people wouldn't mind sitting in a lab all day doing studies and experiments. And open up the Explorer career. Give people a reason to go out into 0.0 and explorer this vast universe you've given us to play in. You could scatter materials throughout multiple areas so one alliance alone couldn't build something (not enough of all materials). You'd force conflict as alliances would invade for access to science materials. You'd bring about explorers who fly around in special ships collecting rare materials fighting with the alliance locals.
Take EVE to the next level and give us true R&D not some agent whoring reward system based on fate.
Archie
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:08:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Levin Cavil on 23/12/2005 14:14:25
So archbishop, instead of having to invest time and effort, you ould rather just dump isk into a "research project" that just sits in a lab and takes time. In addition to this it requires an explorer to go ***** out special places *cough* complex *****s *cough*. As well as other difficult to find materials. You find this system to be more realistic in some way and more rewarding than agent missions. Somehow you find that system to reward effort, even though it can be conducted almost entirely afk and required almost no effort on the part of the player beyone setting up some buy orders.
who wants to train up a scpeical skilltree just to plug ome arbitrary trade good into a lab slot and log off for 6 hours? THATS grinding, spending time training skills just so you can spend more time doing something else, real rewarding.
Thats pretty indicative of the PROBLEM with Tech 2 atm, not a solution to afk wealth building.
If you read my entire first post you will see that by requiring a large investent of PLAYER TIME, not skillpoints then researching becomes a "career." The investment in order to get the reward should be in the form of time spent playing, not afk. My solution rewards EVERYONE who spends the time to do the missions, even if you only have a few hours a day to play or even a few hours a week, eventually you can get somethig and have a piece of the tech 2 pie, without having it limited to a special alt character that sits in a station and collects keys.
Tech 2 Suggestion |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:18:00 -
[19]
/me just wants the ability to trade RP's like Papa Smurf hinted at months & months & months ago ..
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2005.12.23 14:26:00 -
[20]
Originally by: MOOstradamus /me just wants the ability to trade RP's like Papa Smurf hinted at months & months & months ago ..
Actually the ability to trade RP could be implemented in this system as a way to help people that have very little time to play get in on the research action. That would allow people who dont like runningmissions to make isk in other fields yet still actuire RP and get BPOs and BPCs that they want.
Tech 2 Suggestion |
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NetHawk
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:11:00 -
[21]
I just wished they would give out something for the folks that do R&D, make it the named t1 stuff or whatever but something. Making limited run BPC's would be a good option as well but limiting them to only X in the game would be bad. People would just sit on them and then you'd be in the same position, except with an extra 20 bpc's running around. The fact that a few people own a lot of bpo's is all about money and has next to nothing to do with seeding. They may have actually acquired 10% of their bpo's through RP running, I'm sure they've just bought the other 90% through their profits. I dont want to player hate on all the big guys out there, but I want to be able to have some piece of EVE research that I can acquire.
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Ottomin
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Posted - 2005.12.23 15:19:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ottomin on 23/12/2005 15:21:20 Edited by: Ottomin on 23/12/2005 15:20:05 I like the idea of bringing reverse engineering into the game to make BPO's more common. However within the game they often refer to these prints as 'patents' which really wouldn't make sense in a system where there are parts of the galaxy that are under poor or nonexistant governmental controls. So I would suggest that a reverse-engineered BPO be something that is only usable for building in either POS's, outposts, or at least stations in 0.0. The BPO itself and BPC's made from it could even be contraband in all secure space.
The beauty of using reverse engineerin for this too, is that it lets people work on getting a BPO for something they want and/or can use, instead of letting the lottery throw it all up to chance.
After Months of research, I'm the "proud" owner of a Acolyte II BPO. Woohoo!
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Ploplop Fizzfizz
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Posted - 2005.12.23 16:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Levin Cavil
Originally by: MOOstradamus /me just wants the ability to trade RP's like Papa Smurf hinted at months & months & months ago ..
Actually the ability to trade RP could be implemented in this system as a way to help people that have very little time to play get in on the research action. That would allow people who dont like runningmissions to make isk in other fields yet still actuire RP and get BPOs and BPCs that they want.
This is the worst thing that could happen to the game. The R&D system is the way it is to evenly distribute the chance as fairly as possible across the broadest range of demographics.
Turning RP into currency would totally defeat that, as the single player who finally reached his goal will have to sit in a queue waiting for his target BPC until one of the others is finally used up, which may never happen (of course a BPO owner will be happy to lock these BPCs up).
Someone with enough currency could buy ridiculous sums of RPs, and missions aren't the fastest way to make ISK, so this would have the opposite affect by reducing time value for non-grinders.
Sorry, this idea just gives too much of an advantage to a group that already has most of the advantages, and takes away opportunity for competitive players that can't hack away for 6-10hours a day.
Ethereal Imperium [E-IMP] is recruiting!Please visit our webpage for more information. |
Kittara
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Posted - 2005.12.23 17:16:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ottomin Edited by: Ottomin on 23/12/2005 15:21:20 Edited by: Ottomin on 23/12/2005 15:20:05 I like the idea of bringing reverse engineering into the game to make BPO's more common. However within the game they often refer to these prints as 'patents' which really wouldn't make sense in a system where there are parts of the galaxy that are under poor or nonexistant governmental controls. So I would suggest that a reverse-engineered BPO be something that is only usable for building in either POS's, outposts, or at least stations in 0.0. The BPO itself and BPC's made from it could even be contraband in all secure space.
The beauty of using reverse engineerin for this too, is that it lets people work on getting a BPO for something they want and/or can use, instead of letting the lottery throw it all up to chance.
After Months of research, I'm the "proud" owner of a Acolyte II BPO. Woohoo!
Good Idea, I always wonderd when this would be available, I see it their but no one was able to explain why or when it would be available.
All I ever want to do is have some "Insert Corp Name Here" |
Kipkruide
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Posted - 2005.12.23 17:19:00 -
[25]
So how do i get a bpo if i do not run agents. there are peeps who actually do not live in empire, gasspp. never go to empire. gasssssp. and have no access to agents in their space.
If i can collect rp from killing rats it's fine with me, else i'll stick with the current system where i can spent a months or 2 getting some fair amount of agents going on research and the at least have a chance to get a bpo and get back to what i like doing in the game namely blowing **** up.
giving bpc's out of lp offers or for rp, bpo's should be available to all in eve without forcing them into a set occupation imo though. Not that i am against giving peeps who do some kind of activity like running r&d agents a better chance.
In the end though this system is completely fair. Statistically speaking and taking into account the limits on total randomness for computer generated random numbers, which are statistically insignificant.
Of course the down side of this is that there will be players who might have lotsa rp and still never get a bpo while they play eve and others might get 8 in a row, both unlikely but perfectly possible. So i tend more towards the dev idea of having a bpo auction for rp, next to the current system. A quick sum of total t1 bpo's and t2 bpo's derived from them against the total subscriber base says that 90% of eve will never get a bpo anywayz btw. But since this is a corporation based mmorpg and not a single player game i see no problem there.
The current system is fair, that means you might never get a t2 bpo, tough luck but it's what i like about eve, in the real world you probably arent going to win the lottery either.
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Gaskin Ravenwing
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Posted - 2005.12.23 18:10:00 -
[26]
would be nice to have a search function for bpos if this horrible lottery is to continue with 13000 players :(
gas I whine alot :( |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.12.23 19:13:00 -
[27]
A far better option than the wretched lottery, I fully support this.
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Don ZOLA
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Posted - 2005.12.23 19:14:00 -
[28]
levin is right, lottery suck way too much, it should be like in ole good times when u actually had to do certain number of missions to get something (miner 2 bpo for example).
levin 4tw
There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
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000Hunter000
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Posted - 2005.12.23 21:45:00 -
[29]
At some point i stopped running my R&D agent so now i only get the daily amount of R&D points, so yeah i thinke either an auction with R&D points or changing the RP system to the LP system where u get offers for bpc's for less points (but still high enough as to not to flood the market with too many T2 items) but if u want a BPO u will have to save up your points.
So call me greedy/silly/whatever, but i think i deserve a T2 bpo after playing for so long, so if they change it to a system where i can exchange my RP's for a BPO eventually i would be happy.
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Kage Getsu
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Posted - 2005.12.23 23:21:00 -
[30]
I really like the RP offer system idea.
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