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Era'kanath
9th Fleet-Seraphins
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 13:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Say for example, you wardec someone that's mining in your system; taking everything you relatively own worth in the Billions of ISK worth in POS Fuel because theres very small amounts of it, in that particular location in the region.
Ie, a single system, and the only system in the region that ice belts spawn in (even then, relatively small amounts of ice spawn every 4 hours after the previous belt has despawned)
You spend 50mill wardec'ing a single corp to scare them off from the system, to protect your assets. But that corp has brang more corps, specifically targeting that ice belt for profits. So you end up spending several hundred million ISK in wardecs.
When the wardec is active, they leave their corp, and continue mining the ice belts relentlessly. Making you completely Waste the ISK, ontop of the major profit loss from the lack of POS fuel supplies.
This. Is. Utter. BS.
The corp being wardec'd, the members within that corp, should be Kept in the corp for at least a week (50mill per week? make one week worth it.)
So the people who leave the corp and continue ice mining in that system, we at least Bump them to get them out of the ice belt, so that we can keep at least the minimum profits to keep our industrial POS's running, keeping the eve markets running.
They report us, for bumping them, under the terms of "Harassment". Quoted from the bumping thread, "CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another playerGÇÖs ship as an exploit. However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis."
However, even though the capsuleers haven't removed themselves from the belt, we have been Warned under the terms of harassment.
Complete. Utter. BS.
Fix this CCP. Otherwise making us pay such high amounts of ISK per wardec, without a lock mechnic, makes legit wardecs Pointless, and Broken.
Suicide Ganking should Not be the main warfare mechanic of EVE. Nullsec is another story, nullsec sov mechanics is fine in my perspective...
TL;DR
You spend ISK wardec'ing, and the wardec'd corp disbands but keeps doing whats causing the wardec. Disallowing kills completely. "The more we sweat in peacetime, the less we bleed in war." |

Cannibal Kane
My Little Ponies of the Apocalypse
2232
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 13:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
So OP...
If somebody wardecs you wont your members leave corp? "I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. -áHe flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. -áHis hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. -áIt was truly majestic. -áAnd while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off.-áBecause I am like that." --áNEONOVUS |

Era'kanath
9th Fleet-Seraphins
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 13:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:So OP...
If somebody wardecs you wont your members leave corp?
I rather wouldnt tbh. I mean, theres a surrender option, then theres the leave option.
One of those, is a certain "I win, sucks to have your wallet" button. "The more we sweat in peacetime, the less we bleed in war." |

Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts. Break-A-Wish Foundation
980
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 13:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
If you're getting a misrepresented response to a "harassment petition," your best bet is to petition it up the chain, with that forum post. You can't get too much clearer than that stance. I'm Denzel Washington, and I play chess. |

Era'kanath
9th Fleet-Seraphins
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 13:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:If you're getting a misrepresented response to a "harassment petition," your best bet is to petition it up the chain, with that forum post. You can't get too much clearer than that stance.
It wasn't about smack-talk or anything else, it was literally about Bumping; despite the fact that the capsuleer didn't move and still reported us...
"The more we sweat in peacetime, the less we bleed in war." |

Dave Stark
3323
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 14:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
the issue here isn't war decs.
it's the lack of reason for a miner to be in a player corp. |

S'Way
Bitter Vets
579
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 14:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:So OP...
If somebody wardecs you wont your members leave corp? I like your new corp name. 
Dave Stark wrote:the issue here isn't war decs.
it's the lack of reason for a miner to be in a player corp. We should ask Chribba about incentives for miners to be in player corps. After all Chribba has a corp and even his own alliance, so if anyone can explain good reasons for that it's Chribba.
The risk averse will always find ways around war decs, suicide ganking - although it shouldn't be the best solution, is still the most effective means to get the end result you want. |

Don Purple
Snuggle Factory
44
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 14:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
I can help.  |

Barzai Mekhar
EON Experiments
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 15:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Era'kanath wrote: Fix this CCP. Otherwise making us pay such high amounts of ISK per wardec, without a lock mechnic, makes legit wardecs Pointless, and Broken.
Highsec wardecs are broken beyond simple repair for all parties involved. Your "novel" and "innovative" idea wont change that. The defenders can evade by leaving their corp, while the attackers (frequently) enjoy the benefit of committing only some pvp alts to the conflict while their hauler, missioning, etc. alts are completely protected by anonymity. Forcing the defenders to endure the wardec while not giving them the chance to hit the attackers infrastructure (and NOT only the cheap pvp alts they can afford to lose) isn't really a fair solution either... |

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family The Retirement Club
36
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 15:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bumping the same people over and over isn't harrassment if you have a reasonable expectation of profit (u want to mine the ice so that is fine). It is also fine if they make no effort to avoif it (ie go 10 or so jumps away) which they haven't. Reporting you does sweet FA. The people you are looking for are at http://www.minerbumping.com/ There is an excellant guide in that site for suicide ganking miners. I would suggest buying a permit, ganking a miner and joining the minerbumping in-game channel. As long as u are only targeting that one system in order to keep all the ice for yourself CCP will have zero problem with your activities although many miners will waste CCP's valuable time with pointless petitions and they will likely fill local and your inbox with vile and disturbing language. |
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Era'kanath
9th Fleet-Seraphins
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 15:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Era'kanath wrote: Fix this CCP. Otherwise making us pay such high amounts of ISK per wardec, without a lock mechnic, makes legit wardecs Pointless, and Broken.
Highsec wardecs are broken beyond simple repair for all parties involved. Your "novel" and "innovative" idea wont change that. The defenders can evade by leaving their corp, while the attackers (frequently) enjoy the benefit of committing only some pvp alts to the conflict while their hauler, missioning, etc. alts are completely protected by anonymity. Forcing the defenders to endure the wardec while not giving them the chance to hit the attackers infrastructure (and NOT only the cheap pvp alts they can afford to lose) isn't really a fair solution either...
atm the defenders usually spend a rediculous amount of isk in hiring mercs to fight back; besides the fact that the attackers 'infrastructure' are the attackers ships themselves, the defenders have an equal chance in fighting back and winning (in terms of eve play anyways) fleet vs fleet (not accounting for numbers, skill, ship types, cost, etc)
Also, my suggestion is way better than whats happening atm; place a week lock on corporate movement when wardec'd when it comes to intel though, the defender can still wardec the attackers 'supportive' corp, or 'infrastructure' if it were to have one. "The more we sweat in peacetime, the less we bleed in war." |

Barzai Mekhar
EON Experiments
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 16:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Era'kanath wrote: atm the defenders usually spend a rediculous amount of isk in hiring mercs to fight back; besides the fact that the attackers 'infrastructure' are the attackers ships themselves, the defenders have an equal chance in fighting back and winning (in terms of eve play anyways) fleet vs fleet (not accounting for numbers, skill, ship types, cost, etc)
In my experience highsec wardecs are rarely ever about "fleet vs fleet". All highsec wardecs I've witnessed so far came down to "Attacker logs on (or sits in a station in the system afk all day), periodically ganks any soft industrial targets on grid, boasts about what a great pvp player he is, loggs off". Usually he will use very cheap ships, so that he could lose a dozen for each mining vessel or filled hauler he blows up. No point in anyone hiring mercenaries, putting up defence fleets etc., the attackers simply wont fight if there's any chance of a coordinated defence showing up. The result? The defenders are seriously crippled in their ability to mine, run missions etc. while the attacker can just log on an alt in a different corp and go about his buisness with impunity.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1371
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 16:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Clearly your experience is very limited. Let me help correct that. |

Era'kanath
9th Fleet-Seraphins
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 16:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Clearly your experience is very limited. Let me help correct that.
 "The more we sweat in peacetime, the less we bleed in war." |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1372
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 16:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Anyone who thinks people in the wardec field "generally fly cheap ships" is in need of some training. I don't think I fly anything worth less than 500 million. |

Barzai Mekhar
EON Experiments
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 17:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Anyone who thinks people in the wardec field "generally fly cheap ships" is in need of some training. I don't think I fly anything worth less than 500 million.
You don't have "will drop wardec against your noobcorp for 200.000.000 ISK" written in your bio either (which unfortunately was the case in all prior highsec wardecs i've witnessed). |

Era'kanath
9th Fleet-Seraphins
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 17:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Anyone who thinks people in the wardec field "generally fly cheap ships" is in need of some training. I don't think I fly anything worth less than 500 million.
You appear to have some serious ISK usage problems my good sir. "The more we sweat in peacetime, the less we bleed in war." |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1374
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 17:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
What is the point in having money if you aren't going to frivolously spend it declaring war on 9 man R&D corps? |

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations Self Sabatoge
1151
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 17:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Skimmed through this whole thread, and so far www.minerbumping.com is the best thing I've read so far, next to Cannibal Kane's excellent question. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |

Era'kanath
9th Fleet-Seraphins
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 17:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:What is the point in having money if you aren't going to frivolously spend it declaring war on 9 man R&D corps?
good point xD if you have isk in abundance, doesnt really matter how much you feel like spending on pvp' other corps don't have that privilege though =/ "The more we sweat in peacetime, the less we bleed in war." |
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Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 10:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Era'kanath wrote:Say for example, you wardec someone that's mining in your system; taking everything you relatively own worth in the Billions of ISK worth in POS Fuel because theres very small amounts of it, in that particular location in the region.
Ie, a single system, and the only system in the region that ice belts spawn in (even then, relatively small amounts of ice spawn every 4 hours after the previous belt has despawned)
You spend 50mill wardec'ing a single corp to scare them off from the system, to protect your assets. But that corp has brang more corps, specifically targeting that ice belt for profits. So you end up spending several hundred million ISK in wardecs.
When the wardec is active, they leave their corp, and continue mining the ice belts relentlessly. Making you completely Waste the ISK, ontop of the major profit loss from the lack of POS fuel supplies.
This. Is. Utter. BS.
The corp being wardec'd, the members within that corp, should be Kept in the corp for at least a week (50mill per week? make one week worth it.)
So the people who leave the corp and continue ice mining in that system, we at least Bump them to get them out of the ice belt, so that we can keep at least the minimum profits to keep our industrial POS's running, keeping the eve markets running.
They report us, for bumping them, under the terms of "Harassment". Quoted from the bumping thread, "CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another playerGÇÖs ship as an exploit. However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis."
However, even though the capsuleers haven't removed themselves from the belt, we have been Warned under the terms of harassment.
Complete. Utter. BS.
Fix this CCP. Otherwise making us pay such high amounts of ISK per wardec, without a lock mechnic, makes legit wardecs Pointless, and Broken.
Suicide Ganking should Not be the main warfare mechanic of EVE. Nullsec is another story, nullsec sov mechanics is fine in my perspective...
TL;DR
You spend ISK wardec'ing, and the wardec'd corp disbands but keeps doing whats causing the wardec. Disallowing kills completely.
Boo hoo. Poor pirate, learn to live with your neighbours
OR
Grow a pair and move to nullsec.
|

Era'kanath
9th Fleet-Seraphins
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 22:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
[/quote]
Boo hoo. Poor pirate, learn to live with your neighbours
OR
Grow a pair and move to nullsec. [/quote]
So what your saying is, "Highsec warfare mechanics dont mean anything to me, since your complaining about it ill tell you that you Suck"
Logic?
Been to nullsec, wasnt my cup of tea If anything, wormhole space is more enjoyable. "The more we sweat in peacetime, the less we bleed in war." |

Barzai Mekhar
EON Experiments
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 06:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Era'kanath wrote:Sylphy wrote: Boo hoo. Poor pirate, learn to live with your neighbours
OR
Grow a pair and move to nullsec.
So what your saying is, "Highsec warfare mechanics dont mean anything to me, since your complaining about it ill tell you that you Suck" Logic? Been to nullsec, wasnt my cup of tea If anything, wormhole space is more enjoyable.
Soooo... everyone shooting everyone (nullsec) isn't your cup of tea, but people you want to shoot via highsec wardecs not being able to escape you is? Geee, what a suprise...
And in order to post a bit more productive - a thought:
Londo Mollari wrote: Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the kingdom of idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts.
Well that is, unless you're in highsec EVE. Here, fighting 20 wars at once started over such trivial things as forum posts (/wave break-a-wish) is no problem at all. This is indicative of a substantial problem - the initiator of highsec wars has the choice of the resources he commits to the war, the defender is all in. Encounters can not be forced, but happen by chance. If the defenders were able to force the attacker into a confrontation along the lines of "be there or forfeit the war", we'd see alot less of these ridiculous wars for no reason other to generate targets... |

Aln 'Al-Talib' Hasin
Overmatch Industries
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Don Purple wrote:I can help. 
Purple and the Snuggle Factory are working this same issue for me. My war targets largely dropped corp and continue mining unashamed. Sure, I snagged a couple stragglers but it's up to the gankers to drive the point home. I'll let you know how it turns out. If Don and friends do a good job, I'm considering giving them an additional sum for a hank on thier neutral boosting orca solely out of spite. |

Maliandra
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 01:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
OP: Your complaints are well-warranted despite what people here say. With that said, I do disagree.
In the scenario you have layed out it is indeed unfortunate that the defending party can just drop corp like that and carry on with their business. However consider what happens if CCP does not allow you to drop corp. It gives griefing corps - which make up the majority if war decs - too much of an advantage.
You might not like that these ice miners got away from your dec, but you will be happy with this mechanic if you eventually become victimized by griefers. You will thank CCP endlessly that they allowed you to drop corp 
As for how to deal with these ice miners taking too much from your systems: Gank them. Yeah you can hire people but they might just come back and gank you, seeing as the chatter you'd relay to them would be "luls" worthy in their minds. I mean it is kind of funny... hire someone to gank people... and they gank you too. Always best to deal with such issues on your own if possible. |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
958
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 02:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
My suggested solution has been for some time that if someone drops corp during a wardec, killrights on them are generated for the wardeccing corp. More if they dropped before the dec goes live.
While I do agree that there's a problem with dec dodging, I don't think the solution is to forcibly keep people in corps that get decced. That just hurts player freedom. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
558
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 05:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
OP wastes isk on a frivolous war dec. OP is now butt hurt to discover that a frivolous war dec wastes isk. If you want to get your soul to heaven, trust in me. Now don't judge or question. You are broken now, but faith can heal you. Just do everything I tell you to do. (Opiate - Tool) |

Aesheera
Blacklight Recon Strictly Unprofessional
295
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 09:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ohhh..... the joys of low- and nullsec.
Highsec PvP is pretty busted in my humble opinion. The eternal undock games, Tradehubtrollers and corpdroppers get old fast. Primary since '07. GÖÑ
If It Bleeds, Kill It - II |

Grunanca
Sickology Dead Terrorists
80
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 09:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Since you OP has posses to look out for, you clearly also have the people to attack corps with posses? Try and wardec a corp holding a high sec pos. With the work it takes to swap corp with such one, my guess is 0 of the core people in the corp will leave. With that said, I find it wierd you need to ice mine in order to pay for the posses you use to seed the market? If your posses arent even making profit enough to pay for themselves, you are doing something seriously wrong! You might as well just take them down and sell the ice instead. |

AndromacheDarkstar
Red Dawn Mercenaries Forsaken Asylum
807
|
Posted - 2013.09.23 11:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
Barzai Mekhar wrote:Era'kanath wrote: atm the defenders usually spend a rediculous amount of isk in hiring mercs to fight back; besides the fact that the attackers 'infrastructure' are the attackers ships themselves, the defenders have an equal chance in fighting back and winning (in terms of eve play anyways) fleet vs fleet (not accounting for numbers, skill, ship types, cost, etc)
In my experience highsec wardecs are rarely ever about "fleet vs fleet". All highsec wardecs I've witnessed so far came down to "Attacker logs on (or sits in a station in the system afk all day), periodically ganks any soft industrial targets on grid, boasts about what a great pvp player he is, loggs off". Usually he will use very cheap ships, so that he could lose a dozen for each mining vessel or filled hauler he blows up. No point in anyone hiring mercenaries, putting up defence fleets etc., the attackers simply wont fight if there's any chance of a coordinated defence showing up. The result? The defenders are seriously crippled in their ability to mine, run missions etc. while the attacker can just log on an alt in a different corp and go about his buisness with impunity.
Wow thats an incredibly innacurate view of high sec war decs. Yes there are people who will just sit on station ( mastercard you know who you are ) but a large number of high sec war dec corps spend allot of time watchlisting, hunting, baiting and prepping to kill targets. We also roam around allot looking for targets.
As for using cheap ships, i have no idea what war deccers you have been fighting but im not aware of many war deccers who dont fly around in very nicely fit faction/ T3 ships.
There is always a point in hiring mercs and defense fleets, all mercs can be beaten back with the right tools so find those tools and use them, or maybe buy a tech 1 crusier gang and catch some of them out by fighting back. Relax and enjoy your wardecs. Red Dawn Mercenaries, Low and High sed mercs for hire. Feel free to mail me or join our public channel Red Dawn Mercenaries for more information. |
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