I made a reply on another thread, and I though the subject required more attention. So instead of coming up with ideas on highsec careers like in the other thread, I'd like to have your opinion on weather my points are valid and reasonable.

Here was my post:
(The idea is that lvl 4s are way OP)
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Has it ever occurred to anybody that some people only play BECAUSE of level 4's?

And anyway, why is it neccessary to move carebears to get PvP? Is it because they will make low/0.0 target rich?

PvP'ers are the ones complaining about lowsec etc. so why don't YOU move out there?

I've already said - and this is why I post on it, if highsec targets are taken away (either by assured safety OR by complete reversal of highsec safety), then people will move out by default.

PvP'ers DON'T want to leave highsec because they are SAFE there. It's not a "carebear" created problem.

My general feeling is that this game would be more interesting if there was either some sort of conflict, or a good deal of organization need to get to the best income. So you CAN stay in highsec to make isk, but just running boring, old, soloable, easy missions won't get you nearly as much income as fighting for resources or building a great prodoction chain with ten other people from the ground up. Get my drift? Carebears can still have income, just not as much as people willing to fight for the bounties of dangerous space.

PS- If level 4s are the only reason to play EVE of a person, then I'll be baffled. Missions are by design boring.

Has it ever occurred to anybody that some people only play BECAUSE of level 4's?

And anyway, why is it neccessary to move carebears to get PvP? Is it because they will make low/0.0 target rich?

PvP'ers are the ones complaining about lowsec etc. so why don't YOU move out there?

I've already said - and this is why I post on it, if highsec targets are taken away (either by assured safety OR by complete reversal of highsec safety), then people will move out by default.

PvP'ers DON'T want to leave highsec because they are SAFE there. It's not a "carebear" created problem.

why do YOU play? Other than to QQ out of curiosity...

why do YOU play? Other than to QQ out of curiosity...

Know what I say? make deadspace areas akin to 0.0

No CONCORD, no sec etc

The Apostle > You must keep in mind that 0.0 and L5's in lowsec are much more profitable than L4's

Level 5s maybe, but 0.0?

I'm still feeling that 4s are way overpowered. Overpowered enough to make dangerous ventures not worth it. Fives may reward more, I don't really have much to say on that.

My general feeling is that this game would be more interesting if there was either some sort of conflict, or a good deal of organization need to get to the best income. So you CAN stay in highsec to make isk, but just running boring, old, soloable, easy missions won't get you nearly as much income as fighting for resources or building a great production chain with ten other people from the ground up. Get my drift? Carebears can still have income, just not nearly as much as people willing to fight for the bounties of dangerous space, or the great industrial leader organizing a whole corp.

PS- If level 4s are the only reason to play EVE of a person, then I'll be baffled. Missions are by design boring.

I think we got off topic. The argument isn't trying to move people to 0.0 or lowsec. The biggest problem with level 4 missions is that they don't encourage multiplayer interaction in a game driven by multiplayer interaction. I have no problem with there being very lucrative things in highsec and I do not expect people to be forced to move into less safe space. I happen to agree with the OP when he states that the most lucrative things in high sec should take at the very least a minimal amount of teamwork and coordination beyond what currently exists.

As for 0.0 ratting/plexing whatever. I works just like EFT, on paper it sounds wonderful and there's shiny pots of gold everywhere. Realistically for the average null-sec player it is far more difficult. Most systems are **** and the ones that aren't **** are already in heavy use by other players. You can still make a lot of ISK in null no doubt but its not always the ISK printing machine some people make it out to be.

-It's easy.
-It's very low risk.
-It's boring and repetitive.

-It's extremely lucrative.
-It has a variety of benefits in addition to ISK gain, such as sec status gain, faction standing gain, corp standing gain, access to free implants, etc.

-It requires only combat related skills, most of which are useful in many other fields of work.

Level 4s are big part of why highsec is overpopulated and low/nullsec is not worth the trouble, income-wise.

Missions should be a side job, a way to earn income for pure combat pilots. NOT a huge source of resources.

Has it ever occurred to anybody that some people only play BECAUSE of level 4's?

And anyway, why is it neccessary to move carebears to get PvP? Is it because they will make low/0.0 target rich?

PvP'ers are the ones complaining about lowsec etc. so why don't YOU move out there?

I've already said - and this is why I post on it, if highsec targets are taken away (either by assured safety OR by complete reversal of highsec safety), then people will move out by default.

PvP'ers DON'T want to leave highsec because they are SAFE there. It's not a "carebear" created problem.

You're absolutely right and it comes back the same ol'. Did the significant shift to highsec occur after the Sanctums nerfs?

The high population in the "good" systems (as you said) took away the isk potential so much so that moving to highsec gave you similar income without the risk - particularly Incursions.

Although, granted, Incursions require solid fleet discipline and multiplayer ethos but the coinage is superb for relatively low risk.

I'm pretty sure CCP have the numbers and the Sanctum nerf may well be reversed if what we're saying has any truth in it.

For mine, L4 missions ain't the problem, they're the result.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that in order to do anything in 0.0 lot's of things have to happen. There needs to be sov/upgrades. Some stuff needs to be scanned, most are to difficult to do without multiple players. You need to be aware of hostile players etc, etc.

As for level 4 missions there is very little to no interaction. Even disregarding how much ISK you actually make doing it it is just a very poor mechanic that fosters a very un-eve like mentality. Missions are sort of the theme park in a sandbox world they just don't really fit. Am I making any sense lol?

LVL 4s would be profitable for me if i wasnt losing a ship every two weeks in one.

Yes, yes you do. I did L4's for quite a time using 3 of my own chars in my own corp. 1 tengu, a claymore and a noctis. made millions. No effort, no need to put any social aspect into what I did.

It does fly in the face of a "multiplayer" environment but having said that, solo ratters in 0.0 do that all day also. The "co-operative bit" only applies in case on home defense/CTA's....

Someone did suggest making L4's "sleeper" style making co-operation more neccessary but then the rewards need to escalate to be commensurate - otherwise may as just go shoot WH rats all day.

The Apostle > You must keep in mind that 0.0 and L5's in lowsec are much more profitable than L4's

Level 5s maybe, but 0.0?

I'm still feeling that 4s are way overpowered. Overpowered enough to make dangerous ventures not worth it. Fives may reward more, I don't really have much to say on that.

At least in Nullsec you have to join a corp, in an alliance and either show up to CTA's/Home defense or avoid getting ganked. If level 4 missions even had this extent of social interaction we would probably be having a different discussion.

I would be in favor of removing missions completely rather than try to fix such a messed up mechanic. From the new player experience onward we should be providing training into actual professions rather than robots. It would be more productive and sandboxish to enable players and provide them with the tools to start mining/building/researching/hauling/trading/pvping from the get go rather than clicking red crosses all day.

I made a reply on another thread, and I though the subject required more attention. So instead of coming up with ideas on highsec careers like in the other thread, I'd like to have your opinion on weather my points are valid and reasonable.

Here was my post:
(The idea is that lvl 4s are way OP)

---

I despise level 4 missioning.

-It's easy.
-It's very low risk.
-It's boring and repetitive.
-It's extremely lucrative.
-It has a variety of benefits in addition to ISK gain, such as sec status gain, faction standing gain, corp standing gain, access to free implants, etc.
-It makes mining in any space much less profitable (recycling is silly).
-It requires only combat related skills, most of which are useful in many other fields of work.

In fact, I hate highsec missioning so much that I'm almost genuinely upset about it.

Level 4s are big part of why highsec is overpopulated and low/nullsec is not worth the trouble, income-wise.

Missions should be a side job, a way to earn income for pure combat pilots. NOT a huge source of resources.

AMEN - RAWR - RANT - OTHER THINGS!

Baphommet (quote me)

--------------------------

You're absolutely right and it comes back the same ol'. Did the significant shift to highsec occur after the Sanctums nerfs?

The high population in the "good" systems (as you said) took away the isk potential so much so that moving to highsec gave you similar income without the risk - particularly Incursions.

Although, granted, Incursions require solid fleet discipline and multiplayer ethos but the coinage is superb for relatively low risk.

I'm pretty sure CCP have the numbers and the Sanctum nerf may well be reversed if what we're saying has any truth in it.

For mine, L4 missions ain't the problem, they're the result.