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Lucius Regall
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
28
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
My experiences are limited to the Amarr/Minmatar war zone, but from what I hear and read the same holds true in the sister war zone.
The war zone is too big.
It is clear that the farmers have a significant influence on the ebb and flow of the war zone. This is because the real FW pilots (non-farmers) simply cannot control the multitude of systems contained within the war zone. The FW pilots simply do not have the manpower to push back the tide of farmers.
The above point is reinforced by the fact that certain "home" systems (and to a large extent the adjacent systems) are only threatened by serious pushes from the real FW pilots. Farmers have a negligible influence on home systems because they are either actively sought out and destroyed in those systems, or their progress is quickly reversed. At this point, many of my cohorts have given up on the FW meta and are more or less only interested in the free war declaration.
With the said, I propose a reduction of the war zone. CCP could either straight up shrink the war zone, or use a similar mechanic to the one that follows:
You can only contest systems if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.
If that is too radical
You can only contest systems to above 50% if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls. |

Shadow Adanza
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
99
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
There's quite a few systems in Gallente/Caldari that no one goes to... ever... unless they're farming. I wouldn't see a reason to keep these systems from "falling out of the influence of faction war" or something like that to make them non-fw systems.
Could make the war zone very interesting. Hey! You're no zombie! |

Lucius Regall
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
29
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP phasing systems in and out of the war zone based upon their activity level is another good idea. The remote farming systems would be phased out and active systems like Egghelende would be phased in. |

Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
52
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
I fully agree, it makes no sense to have so many systems with no "front" or area of concentrated conflict.
Systems should only be capture-able if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls. |

Pannax Ni
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote:I fully agree, it makes no sense to have so many systems with no "front" or area of concentrated conflict. This is EVE, you make your own areas of concentrated conflict. YOU decide where and who to fight. Go siege a system, go out there and take the fight you want. This suggestion seems kinda "meh" to me. |

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
581
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
No. I don't want a smaller warzone, blobs are bad mmkay?
Btw, before you call me a FW plex farmer, do look at my kb. |

Sai Weisman
Biohazard.
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
I like the second idea (namely, having a 'front line' for the war zone), since that would also greatly change the tactics involved in the war. It would make it such that taking systems required fleets, and the small gang plex fights that we currently enjoy would be even more common.
The one downside is that this will lower the income that newer players get from Factional Warfare (plexing) without hurting the income of the more experienced players (running missions). One of the things I like about FW is that newer players can learn to sustain themselves and keep themselves in ships without needing to leave the warzone to make isk.
I still support the idea, since I think that it will make the warzone better for the actual war and encourage everyone to get into fleets, but once systems change hands and a front line is established, FW corps will need to step up to provide free ships to their new players if they don't do so already.
Edit: Egg is used as a base precisely because it's not a FW system. It's also Gallente space, so it wouldn't be involved in the Amarr-Minmatar warzone at all. |

Shadow Adanza
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
99
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 16:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
chatgris wrote:No. I don't want a smaller warzone, blobs are bad mmkay?
Btw, before you call me a FW plex farmer, do look at my kb.
If the gallente militia decided to go 70% solo and spread out to plex, we could easily control T4. You plex farmer. Hey! You're no zombie! |

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1521
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 17:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Large front is not a big deal. Solo in hinterlands, Big gangs in home systems. Or anything in between.
The only issue here is the fact that a system in the "hinterland" counts as much towards FW occupancy as a "home system" w.r.t. CCP's FW scorecard.
So, don't use their scorecard, use your own.
Also, FW lowsec in Gallente-Caldari region is getting awfully crowded these days - if not with militia corps then definitely with low sec pirate corporations. I can only think of a couple Constellations where a good pvp corp does not live.
|

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1521
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 17:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sai Weisman wrote:Edit: Egg is used as a base precisely because it's not a FW system. It's also Gallente space, so it wouldn't be involved in the Amarr-Minmatar warzone at all. Opposing militia should not be able to dock in other sides' low and high sec systems! /troll |

Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
448
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 17:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
**** off you small gang NOOB! l2p, blobs are pro.
chatgris wrote:No. I don't want a smaller warzone, blobs are bad mmkay?
Btw, before you call me a FW plex farmer, do look at my kb.
If the gallente militia decided to go 70% solo and spread out to plex, we could easily control T4.
http://thewaysofthemew.blogspot.com We are recruiting - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1823364&#post1823364 |

Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
320
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 17:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:The only issue here is the fact that a system in the "hinterland" counts as much towards FW occupancy as a "home system" w.r.t. CCP's FW scorecard.
So, don't use their scorecard, use your own.
Pretty much.
Adding a multiplier to the LP payout mechanic so systems with a lot of FW kills and a lot of FW traffic would give more LP than systems just being plexed with no one fighting over them might be an interesting thing.
It would be hilarious, the mass slaughter of unskilled spy alts being used to exploit the mechanic (or leet pvp as the amarr call it) would cause me no end of giggles
|

Deen Wispa
Justified Chaos
558
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 18:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just implement the rollback timer and it'll solve alot of problems with respect to farmers. Despite the vastness of the Gallente/Caldari warzone, you will find a pvp corp living in a system every 3-4 jumps from each other. So it's not as desolate as the OP thinks
The only thing stopping the Gallente from sustaining a Tier 3 and ROFLstomping Caldari into oblivion is they're too busy trying to defensive plex useless systems. If they went out solo offensive plexed like they do now, then it's game over. If you want a 'front line', then make it yourself. High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve . |

JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
120
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 19:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
You're saying the warzone is twice as big as it needs to be while I say the warzone is just half full.
Lucius Regall wrote:My experiences are limited to the Amarr/Minmatar war zone, but from what I hear and read the same holds true in the sister war zone.
The war zone is too big.
It is clear that the farmers have a significant influence on the ebb and flow of the war zone. This is because the real FW pilots (non-farmers) simply cannot control the multitude of systems contained within the war zone. The FW pilots simply do not have the manpower to push back the tide of farmers.
The above point is reinforced by the fact that certain "home" systems (and to a large extent the adjacent systems) are only threatened by serious pushes from the real FW pilots. Farmers have a negligible influence on home systems because they are either actively sought out and destroyed in those systems, or their progress is quickly reversed. At this point, many of my cohorts have given up on the FW meta and are more or less only interested in the free war declaration.
With the said, I propose a reduction of the war zone. CCP could either straight up shrink the war zone, or use a similar mechanic to the one that follows:
You can only contest systems if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.
If that is too radical
You can only contest systems to above 50% if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.
|

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
864
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 20:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
The problem with farmers has far more to do with the plexing mechanics than anything else. Resetting a plex to neutral requires a substantial time investment at absolutely no reward
A plex that has been partially captured by one faction should degrade to neutral over time with no one next to the plex button, and degrade to neutral extremely rapidly (say, 10-20x the normal rate). So, if someone sits on a plex for 10 minutes and then gets chased out, the attacker should only need to spend 30s-1 minute in the plex to revert it to neutral.
Thus, your plexing can be interrupted and 10-20 minutes of time wasted if you decide not to fight for your plex. |

HankMurphy
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
14
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 20:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Not sure if I agree about strictly the size of the warzone, except perhaps where 'size' is referring to system weight without regard to activity.
I think I like the idea about control only swaying if it's connected to another contested/taken/active system. That sounds pretty good on the face but likely a mechanic that would need further exploration. (maybe not connected? maybe within 2 jumps of?)
There should be an allowance in the system if a group wants to put up stake in a previous 'backwater' area and lay claim and create a new 'front line'. I don't want to see the front line to be too restrictive and end up tied to just, say, Kamela/Kourm. As the one poster said, blob is bad and we don't want to bottleneck everything. Def needs to be a middle ground.
I think a sentiment worth a quote is this:
X Gallentius wrote: The only issue here is the fact that a system in the "hinterland" counts as much towards FW occupancy as a "home system" w.r.t. CCP's FW scorecard.
This is huge and goes back to what many of us would see as a missing mechanic to recognize system weight with system activity.
The "this is Eve" responses are just generic. I'm not attacking that poster because he's my FW enemy, but that the ol' "this is the sandbox" line gets touted whenever someone simply likes the status quo and can't elaborate as to why.
There is much more improvement that can be made to FW. I don't want a system that restricts activity but at the same time we can't deny the plex farmimg just to plex farm and hiding from conflict is contrary to the intention of the warzone.
This can give the perception that the warzone is simply too big? Back to what gallentius said, what it really does is equally reward those pushing what might be an important system and those avoiding partaking in FW entirely and just want to sit a button without being bothered.
I don't think size is the issue persay (god I hate that word) but then again Lucius does elaborate past that sentiment. I think the still too-generic mechanics underlying FW is the root problem.
I have hope this will improve, FW used to be the bastard child of eve but CCP has recognized it offers a form of PVP many subs love and is worth cultivating. I hope they read this and add it to their list of things to chew on and mull over. Good topic, worth discussing more. |

Dan Carter Murray
434
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 00:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Lucius Regall wrote:My experiences are limited to the Amarr/Minmatar war zone, but from what I hear and read the same holds true in the sister war zone.
The war zone is too big.
It is clear that the farmers have a significant influence on the ebb and flow of the war zone. This is because the real FW pilots (non-farmers) simply cannot control the multitude of systems contained within the war zone. The FW pilots simply do not have the manpower to push back the tide of farmers.
The above point is reinforced by the fact that certain "home" systems (and to a large extent the adjacent systems) are only threatened by serious pushes from the real FW pilots. Farmers have a negligible influence on home systems because they are either actively sought out and destroyed in those systems, or their progress is quickly reversed. At this point, many of my cohorts have given up on the FW meta and are more or less only interested in the free war declaration.
With the said, I propose a reduction of the war zone. CCP could either straight up shrink the war zone, or use a similar mechanic to the one that follows:
You can only contest systems if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.
If that is too radical
You can only contest systems to above 50% if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.
SIZE IS FINE, NUMBER OF PLAYERS IN FW ISN'T
SIZE SEEMS SMALLER WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE AN OGB FOLLOWING YOU EVERY JUMP (TWICE THE WORK!) I have yet to find a pvp corp in eve that I have respect for |

Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1282
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 00:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
We did launch an offensive a few months back in the hinterland systems. It was an interesting option but it never generated the level of conflict we were hoping for. People didn't want to move to counter us and it turned into a boring 'you plex, we plex' of opposing time zones. Limiting systems that can be contested to only adjacent ones is not something I would favor though.
I personally believe that changes such as those in the OP address the symptoms rather then the root cause. Why do we like low sec? I can answer for myself :
Implants No bubbles or bombs Diversity in fits - not as much mandatory fits/ fleet doctrines Easy access to action Flexible Hours
Rather then appreciate different play styles though CCP has steadfastly viewed low sec as merely a training ground for null. This can be seen in the final version of FW that we now have. Do you want to use BC or BS? Go to Null. Do you want to upgrade your systems in any kind of reasonable manner? Go to Null. Do you want a possible game changer such as a temporary cyno jammer? Tough. And so it goes.
The tier pay structure has been beat to death. We all know the arguments. Getting paid to push warzone control is more then enough reward. Lastly - as it stands right now we have WWI trench warfare with primary systems having a wonderful plethora of OGB sitting in POS. People sit in their home systems and try to harvest kills. (Don't go over there though, they do the same.) I don't see cutting down the number of systems improving that situation. |

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
323
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 10:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
No offense, but crying "blob" in FW is stupid. Get some perspective and stop being stupid.
Smaller warzone is not a bad idea considering how empty the majority of it is, but good ideas aside - the chance of CCP looking further at FW within the next 3 years is somewhere between slim and none, and slim just went on a diet. |

Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
549
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 11:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
war zones are fine, just split your forces and things stat to roll better. |

Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
85
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
HankMurphy wrote:This is huge and goes back to what many of us would see as a missing mechanic to recognize system weight with system activity.
The problem is that area's of concentrated activity do not always coincide with systems that can be objectively measured as good in quality.
Just look at the Dotlan map for killboard activity in the Gallente-Caldari war zone. Area's of activity are clearly concentrated around home systems. However the location of those home systems seems to often be chosen arbitrarily or for reasons that may have made sense at some point in time (war zone borders) but no longer do. This means fighting occurs where the players have (indirectly) decided to make it occur. Player driven game mechanics is what CCP want.
Moons, systems security status, system location (high sec adjacency, trade hub accessibility, connection to the rest of the war zone), LP store, FW agents, other agents, ... If you would base system weight off of these and other objectively measurable parameters you would end up with very different home or core systems than we have now.
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:It would be hilarious, the mass slaughter of unskilled spy alts being used to exploit the mechanic (or leet pvp as the amarr call it) would cause me no end of giggles
This is the very reason why there will be no player driven system weights unless someone comes up with a genius idea that can't be exploited. |

Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1262
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lucius Regall wrote:CCP phasing systems in and out of the war zone based upon their activity level is another good idea. The remote farming systems would be phased out and active systems like Egghelende would be phased in.
LOL they are active because of not being in FW
Believe it or not, people dont like to move all their stuff from low sec base to another and do it with targets everywhere who know your going to move.
Mess with this and you will end up with a lot of pirates and no pvp FWers Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
|

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators
99
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 15:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Eh, we just abandoned our home system because the Chinese Caldari farming pressure became too much for a 34 person corp to deplex and still have fun but I'd still rather have held a home system and get fights one warp from undock than hide in a non FW low sec because of a lack of confidence in being able to defend the system.
If all Amarr hid away in Egg, there'd be no way to force fights with plexing pressure, and then you guys would cry that there's no content in FW |

JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
120
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
If all Amarr hid away in Egg, there'd be no way to force fights with plexing pressure, and then you guys would cry that there's no content in FW
We found plenty of fights just fine before docking rights. Hell, we found fights after we took all the systems anyway. Plexing is a driver for the solo / small-gang fights low-sec is known for, sure, but it's not exclusive. |

Logical Chaos
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lucius Regall wrote:
You can only contest systems if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.
If that is too radical
You can only contest systems to above 50% if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.
I like the idea but you know what the outcome will be, right? Blobs! |

Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 21:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pannax Ni wrote:Quote:I fully agree, it makes no sense to have so many systems with no "front" or area of concentrated conflict. This is EVE, you make your own areas of concentrated conflict. YOU decide where and who to fight. Go siege a system, go out there and take the fight you want. This suggestion seems kinda "meh" to me.
You can have up to something like 8-10 (or whatever) different "front" systems. I just dislike having 70+ systems, all of which can be plexed / captured....spreads out fighting and leads to overall weirdness. |

Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 21:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
Logical Chaos wrote:Lucius Regall wrote:
You can only contest systems if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.
If that is too radical
You can only contest systems to above 50% if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.
I like the idea but you know what the outcome will be, right? Blobs!
I highly doubt you would see enough blobs to cover every adjacent system. I hate the blob too, but there should be more concentration. It would make the warfare more tactical, especially knowing exactly which systems are being invaded and how to react appropriately. Imagine how many more fights there would be. |

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1524
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 22:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
Phaade wrote: I highly doubt you would see enough blobs to cover every adjacent system. I hate the blob too, but there should be more concentration. It would make the warfare more tactical, especially knowing exactly which systems are being invaded and how to react appropriately. Imagine how many more fights there would be.
Fights occur when both sides think they can win (or both sides think they will have fun). If there is a dominant side and the losing side no longer has fun getting roflstomped, then the other side will bail and not play. No fights.
With a larger field, there are more opportunities for the weaker side to get fights where they think they can win.
If you, personally, want more concentration, then go attack the other side's home systems - which you would do under your proposed system anyways. |

Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
63
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 21:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Phaade wrote: I highly doubt you would see enough blobs to cover every adjacent system. I hate the blob too, but there should be more concentration. It would make the warfare more tactical, especially knowing exactly which systems are being invaded and how to react appropriately. Imagine how many more fights there would be.
Fights occur when both sides think they can win (or both sides think they will have fun). If there is a dominant side and the losing side no longer has fun getting roflstomped, then the other side will bail and not play. No fights. With a larger field, there are more opportunities for the weaker side to get fights where they think they can win. If you, personally, want more concentration, then go attack the other side's home systems - which you would do under your proposed system anyways.
Well I roll through FW neutral currently, I still don't see as many fights as I'd like. |

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
161
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 22:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
remove isk for fw, problem solved then the typical can go back to 'o i dont care about sov' when some1 looses their home or 'we so gud at sov' when one takes a system. |
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