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bounty nerf - a step too far?

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mrg29	Posted - 2005.12.27 23:50:00 - [1] just completed my first lvl4 angel extravaganza since the patch. took me around 1hr 25mins to do solo and omw back to dock i checked to see what the total bounties were i had received for it. even tho i knew bounties had been reduced i was shocked to see the total in bounties received was approx 15mill. before the cold war patch this figure would have been close to 30mill. so in only 2 patches bounties for this mission have been halved? up to now i've been defending DS missions, especially the longer ones as i like the challenge of doing them solo but this is almost beyond a joke.
PKlavins	Posted - 2005.12.27 23:56:00 - [2] im agreeing with u here...the bountys have gone too low...i have done 2 duo of death's lvl4, and the two bs have only 1mill bounty. kinda low considering they were hard as hell to tank...and wats with the cruise launchers having only 55k?? thats way too low actually im not sure wat the bounties were before RMR cause i only started the lvl4's after it came, but i have noticed bounty decreases in lvl3's that i did before RMR as well, like the extravs... I make sigs/banners 5mill each, convo/evemail for details
Pwny McPwnerson	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:19:00 - [3] The rat bounties in lvl 4 missions were really high to begin with. Now they're where they should be.
Brannor McThife	Posted - 2005.12.28 04:10:00 - [4] Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson The rat bounties in lvl 4 missions were really high to begin with. Now they're where they should be. What rock have you been living under? Pre Exodus they were too high. Now they're a joke. You cannot possibly believe they are "where they should be" considerring that the same NPC is worth sometimes tripple (sometimes more) the value in 0.0. -G
Sorja	Posted - 2005.12.28 04:34:00 - [5] Ratting in 0.0 belts is 100% risk free (missions are not risk free) and yield good loot. The problem is that ratting is repetitive and missions are (were? should be?) more entertaining. Before the first missions nerf, missions were entertaining and rewarding. Not as rewarding as mining or getting a free licence to print ISK (aka tech II lottery), but a dedicated player could replace his PvP losses easily. Those times are gone. The free licence to print ISK remains.
Dust Angel	Posted - 2005.12.28 05:08:00 - [6] Originally by: Sorja Ratting in 0.0 belts is 100% risk free (missions are not risk free) and yield good loot. The problem is that ratting is repetitive and missions are (were? should be?) more entertaining. Before the first missions nerf, missions were entertaining and rewarding. Not as rewarding as mining or getting a free licence to print ISK (aka tech II lottery), but a dedicated player could replace his PvP losses easily. Those times are gone. The free licence to print ISK remains. ratting in 0.0 belts is risk free... mmm want some more ***** to smoke?
Skarraza	Posted - 2005.12.28 05:47:00 - [7] From what I have seen so far, ratting in 0.0 IS safer than L4 missions, at least if you stick to dead end off the beaten path systems. Granted, I have only been out here a week, but I have not seen a single spawn that even remotely came close to breaking me, much less get my cap below 35%. Even the 7m faction bs spawn was cake. GETTING out here, now that is a different story altogether.
President Commonwealth	Posted - 2005.12.28 09:29:00 - [8] right now is just being anoying and grinding, was fun before all this, including the bugs of agro that are awsomely anoying. i hope all this get fixed/balanced soon. right now what keeps me online is friends, but there is always some other game to play. sometimes paying 15$ to just use the corp chat is too much.but i got an idea lets all use MSN. anyways i am sure they will change all that soon, but problably only when CCP start loosing accounts. after all every new player the only thing it can do is missions. belive me 3 months ago i tryed to go low sec to mine and i lost more money than making money. pirates and older corps own the rest of the space. and the pies and older players love to put down ppl those are the only ppl that keep paying for the game still. happy new year i guess
Ralitge boyter	Posted - 2005.12.28 13:17:00 - [9] Come one both 0.0 ratting and lvl4 misions are still ok, sure killing a rat in a 0.0 belt gets you double the ISK but when you kill them fast enough you have to jump around in at least 8 systems to find some intresting rats to kill. Lvl4's are ok they can be done in safe space as well and they do still give quite good bounties... Sure before patch they where to high and you liked that well who didn't but all good things come to an end. So now you have to choose risk getting your ship blown up in 0.0 or in a lvl4 in the end as the previous poster says 0.0 is for the most part controled by the bigger corps and alliances who think they need to blow up all that enter their part of the vacuum. So the risk versus reward part is still there and the chance of getting away with making major ISK without risk only exists in one last part of the game which is the T2 scam. CCP should and I hope will crush that as well making the game something worth playing for all with a equal chooice for all to make, more risk is more ISK less risk is less ISK. ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me.
mrg29	Posted - 2005.12.28 13:45:00 - [10] i'm all for the concept of risk v reward and i agree completely that lvl4s made it too east to make money in the past but if u look at whats happened over the last 6 months. missile changes = missions take longer bounties reduced twice now = less reward npcs tank better = missions take longer npcs using EW = adapted setups for mission runners = u do less damage = missions take longer aggro changes = more risk now as i said it was too easy to make money but the combined effect of all these changes has had a serious impact on running lvl4 missions and has possibly moved the risk v reward line too far.
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.28 13:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Ralitge boyter So now you have to choose risk getting your ship blown up in 0.0 or in a lvl4 in the end as the previous poster says 0.0 is for the most part controled by the bigger corps and alliances who think they need to blow up all that enter their part of the vacuum. So the risk versus reward part is still there. Well, risk is there if you're have not semi-decent diplomatic relations with the alliance controling the area, which is the case if you're in a small corp or a privateer, or are from an opposite alliance (but then you could hunt in the area you control). So, for the big corps, risk nearly inexistent, huge rewards. For the small ones, fair risk, big rewards. Missions: huge risk, low rewards (much more risk and less reward than high sec mining ) Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.28 14:02:00 - [12] Things with missions are they are predictable in the end...do the few times...lose t1 frig if you want just to see what NPC act like , etc,etc...and you will be fine with some neccesary skills. I did all LEV 3 missions in Maller after 2 months of playing EVE...only because NPCs were predictable and I followed the patern. 0.0 hunting now have bigger bounties...true...but to say there isnt risk involved is ridicules. To be scramed for 4 seconds (even though NPC wouldnt kill you ) could be leathal if hostile ship enter the system and have good scaner skills. No matter in what space you are hunting. Sure...some 0.0 space is more secure then others...but there is allways unpredictable chance for bad timing or not looking...and you might be gone. And respawn on top of you is something you wont encounter in missions tbh...not to mention you have to fly few jumps often to get to particular hunting systems...and some ppl dont use scouts ...and they die on the way there. So , speaking about no risk in 0.0 is [ 2005.12.13 23:48:43 ]--Pilot from north:"we dont want to fight due to server crash and we want a fiar fight with you guys, just dont jump in".
Demonikan	Posted - 2005.12.28 14:35:00 - [13] Edited by: Demonikan on 28/12/2005 14:35:23 10+mill an hour in 1.0 space and you complain? Pfft
BOldMan	Posted - 2005.12.28 15:06:00 - [14] Just try new agro lev4 missions and tell us again about risk. Originally by: Treacle Shazboat Trying to buy from the market. The buy window is blank. Try to send a petition dropped me to the desktop.
mrg29	Posted - 2005.12.28 15:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Demonikan Edited by: Demonikan on 28/12/2005 14:35:23 10+mill an hour in 1.0 space and you complain? Pfft and who is based in 1.0 space ? try reading and understanding the point being made. u can make more than that mining veld in 1.0 space.
Summersnow	Posted - 2005.12.28 18:23:00 - [16] I would have to agree that the risk vs reward should be balanced. Of course in my veiw that means - the new missions should offer much higher rewards, existing missions with agro bugs should offer higher rewards as well as ship reimbursements if the agro is a bug. in addition NPC rats in alliance held 0.0 "safe" space should have there bounties amd drops reduced to "safe" levels, i.e. about what you would make killing frigs in 1.0 space. Keep in mind, alliance "safe" space would also need to have its roids reduced to 1.0 levels to account for the safety risk vs. reward factor as well. While all three items would be "fair" according to the risk vs. reward arguments everyone likes to use and the first should have been hotfixed last week the last two would be game breaking and should never be fully implemented.
Xio2	Posted - 2005.12.28 20:11:00 - [17] Im ****ed because some of the new missions (technological secrets) dont give freaking bounties at all? now why the heck would they do that? doesnt make any sense at all.
Jubeli	Posted - 2005.12.28 20:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Xio2 Im ****ed because some of the new missions (technological secrets) dont give freaking bounties at all? now why the heck would they do that? doesnt make any sense at all. You probably think of the important missions where you go and for instance kill Minmatar Republic fleet if you use amarr agents... Instead of bounties you get nice standing and often good rewards. Standing is very sweet indeed to get..
Pwny McPwnerson	Posted - 2005.12.28 20:44:00 - [19] Originally by: Brannor McThife Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson The rat bounties in lvl 4 missions were really high to begin with. Now they're where they should be. What rock have you been living under? Pre Exodus they were too high. Now they're a joke. You cannot possibly believe they are "where they should be" considerring that the same NPC is worth sometimes tripple (sometimes more) the value in 0.0. -G The complaint here is that he can 'only' make 15 mil in an hour and a half. That's where it should be for safe space dealing with an agent. 0.0 should offer higher bounties, because there is the risk of getting killed by anyone. The point is, if you're looking for more isk, go to 0.0. 15 mil in an hour and a half is good for safe space.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.12.28 20:48:00 - [20] Originally by: mrg29 i'm all for the concept of risk v reward and i agree completely that lvl4s made it too east to make money in the past but if u look at whats happened over the last 6 months. missile changes = missions take longer bounties reduced twice now = less reward npcs tank better = missions take longer npcs using EW = adapted setups for mission runners = u do less damage = missions take longer aggro changes = more risk now as i said it was too easy to make money but the combined effect of all these changes has had a serious impact on running lvl4 missions and has possibly moved the risk v reward line too far. Mission rewards are now determined by average completion time. So "takes longer" is irrelevant.
mrg29	Posted - 2005.12.28 21:17:00 - [21] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: mrg29 i'm all for the concept of risk v reward and i agree completely that lvl4s made it too east to make money in the past but if u look at whats happened over the last 6 months. missile changes = missions take longer bounties reduced twice now = less reward npcs tank better = missions take longer npcs using EW = adapted setups for mission runners = u do less damage = missions take longer aggro changes = more risk now as i said it was too easy to make money but the combined effect of all these changes has had a serious impact on running lvl4 missions and has possibly moved the risk v reward line too far. Mission rewards are now determined by average completion time. So "takes longer" is irrelevant. after first couple of weeks mission rewards are basically fixed within a certain range once the mission has been done a few times - it doesn't continue to change. so the fact missions take longer IS an issue. this thread wasn't about rewards as they vary drastically depending on the quality of the agent, your own skills and the sec status of system anyway. nor was it about my ability to "only" make 15mill in 90 minutes. if it was purely about ability to make money then i could make more mining. this thread was about the fact that mission bounties are now half what they were 2 patches ago while most other factors relating to missions mean they are either more difficult or take longer.
Pwny McPwnerson	Posted - 2005.12.28 21:40:00 - [22] Originally by: mrg29 this thread was about the fact that mission bounties are now half what they were 2 patches ago while most other factors relating to missions mean they are either more difficult or take longer. i.e. balanced
mrg29	Posted - 2005.12.28 21:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson Originally by: mrg29 this thread was about the fact that mission bounties are now half what they were 2 patches ago while most other factors relating to missions mean they are either more difficult or take longer. i.e. balanced yeah coz u r obviously an impartial judge of what balance is.
Pwny McPwnerson	Posted - 2005.12.28 22:17:00 - [24] Originally by: mrg29 yeah coz u r obviously an impartial judge of what balance is. Risk vs. Reward Risk is higher in 0.0, reward is higher in 0.0 Therefore, it is balanced.
Tribunal	Posted - 2005.12.28 22:22:00 - [25] Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson Originally by: Brannor McThife Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson The rat bounties in lvl 4 missions were really high to begin with. Now they're where they should be. What rock have you been living under? Pre Exodus they were too high. Now they're a joke. You cannot possibly believe they are "where they should be" considerring that the same NPC is worth sometimes tripple (sometimes more) the value in 0.0. -G The complaint here is that he can 'only' make 15 mil in an hour and a half. That's where it should be for safe space dealing with an agent. 0.0 should offer higher bounties, because there is the risk of getting killed by anyone. The point is, if you're looking for more isk, go to 0.0. 15 mil in an hour and a half is good for safe space. So by this logic I should get more on bounties for missions in low sec space, correct? The risk of NPCing is a whole lot less then the risk involved in running missions in 0.2 and below areas. I live with a constant group of pirates in local, so I should be seeing more in the way of reward.
mrg29	Posted - 2005.12.28 22:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson Originally by: mrg29 yeah coz u r obviously an impartial judge of what balance is. Risk vs. Reward Risk is higher in 0.0, reward is higher in 0.0 Therefore, it is balanced. in alliance controlled 0.0 the risk is negligible. belt spawns in 0.0 are nowhere near as tough as spawns in missions. try doing some lvl4s and see.
Pwny McPwnerson	Posted - 2005.12.28 22:48:00 - [27] Originally by: mrg29 Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson in alliance controlled 0.0 the risk is negligible. belt spawns in 0.0 are nowhere near as tough as spawns in missions. try doing some lvl4s and see. I've done plenty of lvl 4's. I'd rather NPC in 0.0. More isk.
Galk	Posted - 2005.12.28 23:01:00 - [28] Totaly agree with the two posts above. Certain mission spawns now are absolutely deadly. Running in low sec, there are ways to avoid most encouncers, but when a hotshot group comes in running a covert in a crowded local, sooner rather than later somebody is going to buy it. The latest farce with npc bounty's in missions is the tag in a can.... As iv'e allready said today... you spend 30 mins belowing the spawns up, then another 30 collecting the tags from the cans to claim your 'bounty'. It's a total farce. The new spawns in the the mist and abound are akin to 6/10 complex spawns or harder, yet match it in reward in no way what so ever... Today we ran two dreads to complete a mission that payed me 3.4 million in isk with 6400 points bolted on., with naff all for the other guy. Over 4 billion in fitted ships for that, counter in time sinks of moving those hulks around, probaly on a level with making about 4 million an hour... Honestly velspar pays more:/ ______ 862 buses later, galks back on the road again:) Seasons greetings, merry christmas to one and to all.
Marek II	Posted - 2005.12.28 23:31:00 - [29] No, no, no! the more we neuter missions the more people will happily 'exodus' to ******* space, err, umm, 0.0... or something like that...
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.12.29 01:06:00 - [30] Originally by: mrg29 Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: mrg29 i'm all for the concept of risk v reward and i agree completely that lvl4s made it too east to make money in the past but if u look at whats happened over the last 6 months. missile changes = missions take longer bounties reduced twice now = less reward npcs tank better = missions take longer npcs using EW = adapted setups for mission runners = u do less damage = missions take longer aggro changes = more risk now as i said it was too easy to make money but the combined effect of all these changes has had a serious impact on running lvl4 missions and has possibly moved the risk v reward line too far. Mission rewards are now determined by average completion time. So "takes longer" is irrelevant. after first couple of weeks mission rewards are basically fixed within a certain range once the mission has been done a few times - it doesn't continue to change. so the fact missions take longer IS an issue. ...what? Look, mission payout is determined by completion time. Therefore, there must somewhere be a "desired isk/hour" value in the code. As long as you're completing missions in average time, you're earning "desired isk/hour" on your mission payouts. The length of the mission is, for payout purposes, then totally irrelevant.
mrg29	Posted - 2005.12.29 01:46:00 - [31] ...what? Look, mission payout is determined by completion time. Therefore, there must somewhere be a "desired isk/hour" value in the code. As long as you're completing missions in average time, you're earning "desired isk/hour" on your mission payouts. The length of the mission is, for payout purposes, then totally irrelevant. when a new mission is introduced as we have seen recently the rewards and lps for that mission are set low. in the midst of deadspace and enemies abound were paying approx 1k lps even from high qual low sec agents. now that these missions have been done a few times by people the level of reward and lps has stabilised around the 9k lps mark. this is same as happened for missions like extravaganza and vengence when they were first introduced. the same principle u r applying to rewards is also applied to lps. for the last 5-6 months i have received exactly the same number of lps from my agent for these missions, rewards vary slightly but they are within a set range. if u were correct and rewards were dynamic and reacted to the ongoing average completion times then the same would apply to lps and these DO NOT change now. and to repeat this thread and the point i was making has NOTHING to do with lps or rewards as stated previously these change depending on other factors anyway, nothing to do with time. the threaEVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
mrg29	Posted - 2005.12.29 01:46:00 - [32] ...what? Look, mission payout is determined by completion time. Therefore, there must somewhere be a "desired isk/hour" value in the code. As long as you're completing missions in average time, you're earning "desired isk/hour" on your mission payouts. The length of the mission is, for payout purposes, then totally irrelevant. when a new mission is introduced as we have seen recently the rewards and lps for that mission are set low. in the midst of deadspace and enemies abound were paying approx 1k lps even from high qual low sec agents. now that these missions have been done a few times by people the level of reward and lps has stabilised around the 9k lps mark. this is same as happened for missions like extravaganza and vengence when they were first introduced. the same principle u r applying to rewards is also applied to lps. for the last 5-6 months i have received exactly the same number of lps from my agent for these missions, rewards vary slightly but they are within a set range. if u were correct and rewards were dynamic and reacted to the ongoing average completion times then the same would apply to lps and these DO NOT change now. and to repeat this thread and the point i was making has NOTHING to do with lps or rewards as stated previously these change depending on other factors anyway, nothing to do with time. the thread related to the nerf of bounties AFAIK no change has been made to rewards or lps. i'll keep this simple for u seeing u seem to think that the time it takes to do missions is irrelevant. before the patch i could do angel X in around 1hr 10mins and received approx 22 mill in bounties. post patch it takes around 1hr 30mins and i receive 15mill in bounties. so for a mission that takes approx 1/3 more time to complete i receive 1/3 less in way of bounties. rewards and lps are unchanged. u still think that time to complete mission doesn't affect "isk/hour" ratio?
Abyss Jack	Posted - 2005.12.29 02:51:00 - [33] Yay i also wish my the old bountys back. Its Hard enough now CCP! Don't like the mind that so many Agentrunner switch to miningbarge. :( lvl4 ftw
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.29 03:29:00 - [34] Originally by: Tribunal Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson Originally by: Brannor McThife Originally by: Pwny McPwnerson The rat bounties in lvl 4 missions were really high to begin with. Now they're where they should be. What rock have you been living under? Pre Exodus they were too high. Now they're a joke. You cannot possibly believe they are "where they should be" considerring that the same NPC is worth sometimes tripple (sometimes more) the value in 0.0. -G The complaint here is that he can 'only' make 15 mil in an hour and a half. That's where it should be for safe space dealing with an agent. 0.0 should offer higher bounties, because there is the risk of getting killed by anyone. The point is, if you're looking for more isk, go to 0.0. 15 mil in an hour and a half is good for safe space. So by this logic I should get more on bounties for missions in low sec space, correct? The risk of NPCing is a whole lot less then the risk involved in running missions in 0.2 and below areas. I live with a constant group of pirates in local, so I should be seeing more in the way of reward. Same for those who do missions in 0.0 (for pirates agents mainly). Are the bounties on the rats higher than in the belts, considering mission NPCs are harder nowadays than 0.0 belt rats? Of course not, they are still ridiculously low. And why can a not so skilled miner do way more ISK with much less risk mining solo in 0.9-1.0 than a pilot with the same skills running level 3s and level 4s in 0.5 space with half of the missions in 0.4 (and where you often have a gate camp)? Where are his risk? He has absolutely none, so maybe any miner in 0.9+ should not be able to do more than 1M/h, and like 5M/h max in any system > 0.5? I guess every one would see this nerf as unfair, and miners would get a more rewarding profession. Why should agent runners nerfed that bad, while they take more risk doing level 4s in high sec than people belt rating in 0.0 in an area controlled by their alliance or a friendly alliance? I thought EVE was supposed to offer several viable professions. Well, there is mining, and 0.0 belt hunting and low sec gate camps, and production. Mission running? Why would you do that, you have more chance to loose your ship than in any profession, and earn less ISK than in any profession? So, if you have not lots of time each time you log on, or can be called off your computer at any time (one of the reason some people stay in high sec to be able to be at a safe spot quickly), if you're not in a big corp with relations, and if you don't want to stare at roids all day or do production, what do you have? You used to have missions, now you don't. Missions pre-RMR was already less rewarding than mining, but at least it was fun. Now it's tedious and even less rewarding, with more risks, go figure. Originally by: Tuxford I've got better editing powers Originally by: Oveur I am not interested in "the lottery sucks" or "more tech 2 blueprints" since that is pretty much stating the obvious [/qu
Theonlystd	Posted - 2005.12.29 04:04:00 - [35] None of the gripes about how little is made mention LP's which prolly earn yea a decent sum after u build em up for some nice Implants or faction ships. So id say its sounds pretty even ------------------------------------------- Aye Spellcheck is beyond me along with propper grammer.
Der Sterber	Posted - 2005.12.29 04:32:00 - [36] Originally by: Trelennen Originally by: Ralitge boyter So now you have to choose risk getting your ship blown up in 0.0 or in a lvl4 in the end as the previous poster says 0.0 is for the most part controled by the bigger corps and alliances who think they need to blow up all that enter their part of the vacuum. So the risk versus reward part is still there. Well, risk is there if you're have not semi-decent diplomatic relations with the alliance controling the area, which is the case if you're in a small corp or a privateer, or are from an opposite alliance (but then you could hunt in the area you control). So, for the big corps, risk nearly inexistent, huge rewards. For the small ones, fair risk, big rewards. Missions: huge risk, low rewards (much more risk and less reward than high sec mining ) in resume new players will grind forever while older players will have it easier= to fubar.well i guess CCP is not interested anymore in new players coming to the game and thus they dont care about they droping the game. i heard some1 saying they will just train theyr chars to high lvls and sell the chars to new players problably canceling the account first so the other guy can reactivate it and get all the money they had wasted in the game back.
Finraer	Posted - 2005.12.29 05:14:00 - [37] Bounties may be a bit lower but I've certainly noticed a lot more shiny loot coming through on the lvl 4 missions than before. All-in-all, I think my take home pay from a lvl 4 mission has stayed relatively stable when you add loot values to bounties. Personally, I prefer the "new" system, yeah I know its just "fixed" loot tables and reduced bounties, which has the opportunity to throw up some nicer named loot and varies the payout a little more than it used to. Fin
Tachy	Posted - 2005.12.29 06:57:00 - [38] Aye, LP definately make my day. Need a few hundred unrecyclable mining crystals? Or is your mind more set for a bag of hardwires? Then I can tell you a few agents that have their mind set to supply those and nothing else.
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.29 08:05:00 - [39] Edited by: Darcuese on 29/12/2005 08:07:10 Originally by: mrg29 this thread was about the fact that mission bounties are now half what they were 2 patches ago while most other factors relating to missions mean they are either more difficult or take longer. So?..you get less money becouse of bounties...and you telling us risk is biger. 2 patches ago you say...hmm..I guess your skills become higher too Anyway...one thing missions still have as advantage to 0.0 hunting is standings and OFFERS, OFFERS, OFFERS. Anyway , if you think 0.0 is far better, go to 0.0 and hunt, be my guest. If you say you like doing missions why mentioning bounties? And if its money you are after...then mine as you said yourself. anyway...CCP made this changes to make ppl think if they want to be in empire or come to 0.0 space. And since you put this risk-money subject...I guess they did good job [ 2005.12.13 23:48:43 ]--Pilot from north:"we dont want to fight due to server crash and we want a fiar fight with you guys, just dont jump in".
BOldMan	Posted - 2005.12.29 10:24:00 - [40] Level 4 are mostly broken. I already give up to do it. It is no gain. Originally by: Treacle Shazboat Trying to buy from the market. The buy window is blank. Try to send a petition dropped me to the desktop.
Kanisa	Posted - 2005.12.29 11:20:00 - [41] Darcuese: Sorry to burst your bubble. For many pilots the choice is between running boring L3 missions or leaving EVE for something else. Gankspace is not part of that equation.
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.29 11:33:00 - [42] Edited by: Darcuese on 29/12/2005 11:33:13 Originally by: Kanisa Darcuese: Sorry to burst your bubble. For many pilots the choice is between running boring L3 missions or leaving EVE for something else. Gankspace is not part of that equation. Listen..I have been doing missions lev 3 with maller in 0.2 space just after a month of playing EVE. I have done all those (before RMR, yes). And even though I had to be VERY CAREFULL to do them in maller with small SP I got It become to boring cause missions are repeated over and over. So I doubt ppl are doing missions just out of pure fun (except new players)...they do them because of money, standings and offers. Whit this nerfing of bounties they are given choice to do something else other then missions if they want to earn money. Is that mining (for profit they need to go to to lower space), or is it life in 0.0 or whatever..its their choice. From my point of view Empire is for new players, tradings and roleplaying corps. And dont talk about gankings even though its a part of 0.0 life...there are plenty of variaty in 0.0 all around the space. [ 2005.12.13 23:48:43 ]--Pilot from north:"we dont want to fight due to server crash and we want a fiar fight with you guys, just dont jump in".
Depko	Posted - 2005.12.29 11:55:00 - [43] I do some lvl3 missions and mine in 1.0-0.4 systems. I can tell you, that mining is much more boring and if the reward from mining wouldn't be higher i would do lvl3 indefinitely and most other people too. Considering the rewards, with the best mining barge you can get about 1.100 m3/min that is about 66.000 m3 in a hour. If you mine Veldspar in 1.0 you get about 3.5 mil ISK/hour and thats far below your approximately 10 mil/hour. I you mine with the best barge in 0.4 system you get from jaspet mining about 8.0 mil ISK/hour . Not counting any refining losses, not counting the time to hault the ore, not counting the time to find customers, transport and sell the minerals. Considering the 0.0 rat huntig and 1.0 lvl4 missions, in 0.0 you can not only loose your ship, but also being pod killed. and thats in case of full set of +3 implants a loss of 200M. Whether the best BS has an insurance of about 31.5M ISK. Considering a membership of a big alinace in 0.0 systems, there is one problem. A big aliance has big aliance wars to defend its own 0.0 space. big aliance will not give you the 0.0 access for free, but you must loose your ships, implants, time and ISK to serve the aliance. If there are much mopre people doing missions than 0.0 rating, mining or whatever else, then the fun/risk/rewad is not equal on them and has to be balanced. otherwise we will get 99% people doing missions and 1% doing, production, mining, rat hunting or whatever else.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.12.29 12:08:00 - [44] Originally by: mrg29 if u were correct and rewards were dynamic and reacted to the ongoing average completion times then the same would apply to lps and these DO NOT change now. No, because the dev (Zrackor I believe) who mentioned it said nothing about LPs. And no, I'm not disputing that bounties mean you get less per mission. All I've ever asserted is that mission length in and of itself is irrelevant for mission payout purposes, ie the payout you get from your agent at the end of the mission, because if you complete in average time you get average isk/hour payout.
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.29 12:23:00 - [45] But one thing Im interested regarding missions. Does ppl do them mostly becouse of money or for entertainment?. If its because of money ...why not go do lev 3 missions in AF in low secur spacE?. Rewards from agent in low sec systems are higher then the ones in high sec syste, for same mission. Meaning...calculate how many missions you can do in 2-3 hours, both lev 4 and lev 3. So it might not be bad idead to take Assault Frig lets say (for those that can fly them) and go in to 0.2 systems. Some lev 3 missions in 0.2 pay you similar amount of money and LP as lev 4 in 0.9. And you can do many lev 3 missions in short time, while lev 4 you would spend mcuh more time on single. Other good thing for doing missions in low sec space is that you become more and more familiar with pirates and PvP style of play . Beliave me, doing missions in low sec space give you more adrenaline rush then you had in empire...not to mention you get familiar with locals more then you would have in 350 crowded system [ 2005.12.13 23:48:43 ]--Pilot from north:"we dont want to fight due to server crash and we want a fiar fight with you guys, just dont jump in".
Tachy	Posted - 2005.12.29 12:30:00 - [46] Alliance try to boss people around. Wont happen to me. Low sec space requires you to be there 100% of the time. Impossible for me. The possibility of being ganked is not what gives me a kick. You might have the possibility and the mind to work comfortably in low.sec and/or in an alliance. But that way of life is only one part of EVE. Living and working in high-sec without mining al day long has been possible and sometimes even been interesting. The current changes to missions (and to the production system) reduce this part of eve to being boring. The current changes to L4 missions do not promote fun at mission running. No bounties in the very tough new missions. Having to collect stupid tags taking ages. Searching for stations buying the stuff and actually running around selling them is not what I'd call fun.
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.29 12:41:00 - [47] Originally by: Tachy Alliance try to boss people around. Wont happen to me. Low sec space requires you to be there 100% of the time. Impossible for me. The possibility of being ganked is not what gives me a kick. You might have the possibility and the mind to work comfortably in low.sec and/or in an alliance. But that way of life is only one part of EVE. Living and working in high-sec without mining al day long has been possible and sometimes even been interesting. The current changes to missions (and to the production system) reduce this part of eve to being boring. The current changes to L4 missions do not promote fun at mission running. No bounties in the very tough new missions. Having to collect stupid tags taking ages. Searching for stations buying the stuff and actually running around selling them is not what I'd call fun. Hmm..reading this I didnt get single clue why you play this game in first place , tbh. Dont get me wrong, but nowhere you mentioned the joy and fun while playing. Missions are harder..isnt that good from adrenaline ruch part? What where you doing with money you got from doing missions before RMR? Ship/module collection? I really dont understand what you try to tell..in what way would your EVE life become more interesting with bigger mission NPCs bounties [ 2005.12.13 23:48:43 ]--Pilot from north:"we dont want to fight due to server crash and we want a fiar fight with you guys, just dont jump in".
BOldMan	Posted - 2005.12.29 13:11:00 - [48] Edited by: BOldMan on 29/12/2005 13:13:06 Is about evolve. People want to evolve. To play with better ships, to make more money, to loot finest modules and play easyer day by day. Not to struglle worst with every patch. Regarding new players they have 3 weeks to one months to realise they have no chance to evolve without 0.0 and after they pop on gate camps they realise they have no chance without a lot of friends. Evolve in eve it is dramatic broken now when you need 1 year to compete with others in skills and when the market already have items with prices that represent whole revenue of eve players 2 years ago. The fun is get lost it in isk job involved today in eve. Missions was a funny way to learn to use ships and fight with npc until you have enough isk and skill to move on to 0.0 corporations. Also missions was a refuge for a while in empire for pvp players to rest without boring. And mainly missions was freelancer goals. Now they are not even balanced with others tasks in eve, and a lot players will try other task or even quit (reduce playing time eventualy) and from map statistic, they are not few. I assume that more than 50% eve pop use mission daily basis. When 50% eve pop will rest, the whole balance of eve economies, wars and fun will suffer. I hope I am wrong. I lost my dream to get a mega issue. That is other problem with patchs. Goals are too time consuming in eve. You start to colect lp for a issue ship, or rd point for a hac bpo, or money for an expensive investition and patch after patch you realise your goal was modified or imposible to achieve. That is not right and you have to understand that a subscription of 2 years in a game don't deserve such treatment. Originally by: Treacle Shazboat Trying to buy from the market. The buy window is blank. Try to send a petition dropped me to the desktop.
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.29 13:34:00 - [49] Yes Boldman, mostly right stuff there in your post. But in this thread I heard mainly complaining about lev 4 and some of lev 3 missions. Meaning they do have some SP and probably are not new players. I have been playing this game 7 months..and first motnh was a bit anoying...slow progress, borrow money for cruiser, etc,etc. Im not sure what is the situation today with lev 1-2 missions ....but what I do know is that I borrow 30m from a friend that just recently started to play (cause he was gone to holidays). I know that guys with 2m SP can be good taclers in PvP (if they like PvP offcourse). etc,etc.... I definatly agree that to start now and to reach veteran players take some patiance. but you know that lot of ppl stop playing over time. So , once you were newbee...tomorrow you might be well known veteran. and plenty of variaty CCP gave us in this game give new players more options to choose the path they try to develop....or if not , than this lag is for nothing [ 2005.12.13 23:48:43 ]--Pilot from north:"we dont want to fight due to server crash and we want a fiar fight with you guys, just dont jump in".
Rodge	Posted - 2005.12.29 14:06:00 - [50] I think the two guys who are doing L4 missions in Dreadnaughts, complaining about how little they're making for zero risk, has to be the best part of this thread so far. Then we have someone complaining about how safe it is NPCing in 0.0, but that he'd never risk going there himself. 0.0 is way more risk, as there is always the risk you'll lose your ship to player pirates (in some form). Plus, in 0.0 you don't have the option of spawning BS rats wherever you like. Most belt rats are usually not worth shooting. L4 missions, you can spawn nice BS NPCs on demand. Anything that nerfs the L4s in Empire and makes 0.0 worthwhile, gets my approval! [ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
Lord WarATron	Posted - 2005.12.29 14:21:00 - [51] Here is the solution to SOLVE the issue. But first, the issues are as follows; 1. 0.0 Runners gettting good isk, despite the risk from mostly other players 2. 1.0 lvl4 Runners getting crappy isk, despire the risk from mostly NPC's The Solution is simple. Bounties by sec status for LVL4 Missions. 1.0-0.5 - Bounties Stay the Same. 0.4 - Bounties are 2x 0.3 - Bounties are 2.5x 0.2 - BOunties are 3x 0.1 - Bounties are 3.5x 0.0 - Bounties are 4x Thus you get more bounty the lower the sec you fight in. Kinda like Belt rattings..... --- Order Now! Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble' Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour Msg me - 500mil - 7 day backlog
StarLite	Posted - 2005.12.29 14:28:00 - [52] 15 mil in 1,5 hours is just under what you earn in 0.0 hunting NPC's . - But your in safe space - You can easily refit/reload - You know exactly what to expect - Get LP, standing and other goodies from your agent Not that bad actually, especially when your agent offers you a nice rare ship BPC every once in a while. ___________________________________________________
Haram Zada	Posted - 2005.12.29 14:54:00 - [53] Originally by: StarLite 15 mil in 1,5 hours is just under what you earn in 0.0 hunting NPC's . - But your in safe space - You can easily refit/reload - You know exactly what to expect - Get LP, standing and other goodies from your agent Not that bad actually, especially when your agent offers you a nice rare ship BPC every once in a while. Ahh, but the lvl4 runners dont get their hands on the uber loot, and the last I checked, an officer spawn dropped at least 800mil of loot.
mrg29	Posted - 2005.12.29 15:00:00 - [54] i should have known better than to start this thread. other mission runners are naturally gonna agree that making lvl4s less profitable and obviously higher risk than mining in high sec is a bad thing. all the anti-lvl4 crowd were obviously gonna chirp in with the "go to 0.0 if u aint happy" drivel. now u can choose to believe this next comment or not, i dont particularly care, but "isk per hour" is not something i get too obsessed with normally. having been lucky enough to get an ishtar bpo around a year ago kinda means that making isk becomes secondary. i was just shocked that having done a lvl4 angel X for first time since patch to see just how far bounties had fallen. and btw i still cant see anything in the patch notes which said mission bounties were being reduced again in RMR.
StarLite	Posted - 2005.12.29 15:50:00 - [55] Edited by: StarLite on 29/12/2005 15:51:38 Originally by: Haram Zada Originally by: StarLite 15 mil in 1,5 hours is just under what you earn in 0.0 hunting NPC's . - But your in safe space - You can easily refit/reload - You know exactly what to expect - Get LP, standing and other goodies from your agent Not that bad actually, especially when your agent offers you a nice rare ship BPC every once in a while. Ahh, but the lvl4 runners dont get their hands on the uber loot, and the last I checked, an officer spawn dropped at least 800mil of loot. Officer spawns are uber rare mate, I've only had 1 on over a year of 0.0 hunting, and I didn't even find it myself... Most of the nice loot on the sell forums is people running 10/10 complexes 24/7 :) [which is not doable with only 1 char :P] Im not saying lvl4 missions rock or suck, but I do think their about equal in revenues, agents have nice rewards, but doing missions wont find you a nice true sansha spawn [altho their quite useless untill CCP fixes the loot tables on em...] ___________________________________________________
Darcuese	Posted - 2005.12.29 16:01:00 - [56] Originally by: mrg29 i was just shocked that having done a lvl4 angel X for first time since patch to see just how far bounties had fallen. and btw i still cant see anything in the patch notes which said mission bounties were being reduced again in RMR. So what is a point then if the money isnt the priblem? Not fair to who? And yet again I ask...are you enjoing doing missions over and over...if so, why? Simple question [ 2005.12.13 23:48:43 ]--Pilot from north:"we dont want to fight due to server crash and we want a fiar fight with you guys, just dont jump in".

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