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Drumwaster
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Posted - 2006.01.02 12:59:00 -
[1]
I trained up Tactical Shield Manipulation so I could train EM and Therm shield compensation for my Raven. The thinking being with T2 Resistance Amps offering 37.5% as a base I could train the new EM and Therm Compensation skills to 4 and get 57.5% ([4x5]+37.5) as new resists on passive modules. However, despite having trained up the EM Compensation skill I see my EM resist is stuck on 37.5%.
Am I bugged, or mistaken about what modules the skill is talking about when it says "To passive shield hardeners: 5% bonus per level to Shield EM
resistance"?
It doesn't seem to be working the way I thought it did. Anyone know what's up, or can you direct me to a thread where this is explained please? I did a search on EveSearch and cant really find anyone talking about this.
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Ante
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Posted - 2006.01.02 13:39:00 -
[2]
My understanding is that the new resistance with the skills at level 5 will be 37.5%*1.25 = 46.875%. I can't confirm whether the skills are working or not but I doubt you'd get more resistance with a passive hardener than an active, even with skills.
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Drumwaster
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Posted - 2006.01.02 13:45:00 -
[3]
I'm not getting anything though. The listed resistance for a Magnetic Scattering Amp 2 is 37.5%, equipping alone I get EM resistance of 37.5% on my Raven, despite having trained EM Compensation to level 2.
So either I am bugged, the skill is bugged, or it applies to something other than resistance amps. But I have no idea what else it could apply to.
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Zwick
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Posted - 2006.01.02 14:01:00 -
[4]
I have had it work with Dread Modules (Passive), and T1 active Invul fields.
The bonus is added by (1 + Lvl * .05) * Mod Resist
For Lvl 2 (1 + 2 * .05) * 37.5
1.10 * 37.5 = 41.25
Zwick
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Drumwaster
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Posted - 2006.01.02 15:16:00 -
[5]
Correction; after zoning a couple times here's what it does; when nothing is on I get 0 EM resist (normal), when I equip a T2 Magnetic Scattering Amp I get EM resist 41.25%. That's (37.5*1.1) - which would be correct if it is indeed 0.05 times the effect of the module.
Here's the thing though, if that's the way it is SUPPOSED to work that doesn't make sense. Not based on the description of the skills effects. Here's what it says:
"To active shield hardeners: 3% bonus per level to Shield EM resistance when the modules are not active
To passive shield hardeners: 5% bonus per level to Shield EM resistance"
When it says "To active shield hardeners: 3% bonus per level to Shield EM resistance when the modules are not active" I assumed it meant, well active hardeners. Like Invul fields, EM hardeners, etc. And, in fact, it does exactly what it says it does, it ADDS 3% per level to the resistance when they are turned off. When I have nothing equipped I have 0% shield EM resist, when I put on my T2 Invul Field, I get 6% (again, my Em Comp is trained to level 2).
No problem, except that never did make much sense as I don't know anyone that uses active hardeners in the OFF position.
When it says "To passive shield hardeners: 5% bonus per level to Shield EM resistance" I assumed they meant shield resistance amps - although from a narrowly technical point of view the descriptor is different, a "resistance amplifier" isn't a "hardener". So from what I could tell they were offering a marginal increase in resistance on a given resistance type using passive modules based on skill level.
Made sense to me (and the others in my corp), if only barely.
IE, if you were willing to invest a couple weeks in training the skills you'd actually end up with marginally higher resists using passive gear than you had using active gear. Not all THAT big of a deal since the active gear uses such a low amount of resources - in effect you were training for a couple weeks for a couple percent on very limited resists and the savings of a few CPU on equipping. Fairly typical in my experience with EVE skill training.
Put it this way, there is no way - NO WAY - I would have spent the time and money training this if it is working correctly. And even if that is the case, the wording on the skill description needs to be fixed. 3% bonus per level additive is descibed exactly the same as 5% bonus per level multiplied.
Why in the world would anyone train these skills if this is the way they are supposed to work? To increase the resistance of their active modules when they are turned off? To increase the resistance of their resistance amps by a few hundredths of a percent?
In exchange for a couple weeks training? Puh-lease. 
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2006.01.02 15:35:00 -
[6]
There are a couple of situations when this comes in handy for the active hardeners - such as when sucked dry on cap and the hardeners are deactivated, or when you're criminally flagged and uncloak near sentries and you're unable to activate the hardeners before the first salvo from the sentries.
If it makes passive hardeners almost as good as active ones (dunno if this is the case), then you actually save a lot of cap, which can be used for other things instead.
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ManOfHonor
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Posted - 2006.01.02 22:29:00 -
[7]
In essence- if you need to use the boost that it gives to active hardners, you are probably screwed (some sittuations are exempt)... There is a slight chance you arn't, and this skill ever so slightly increases that chance...
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VaderDSL
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Posted - 2006.01.03 09:56:00 -
[8]
The skills are very nice for assault frigates, with kinetic and thermal compensation at lvl 3 and two T2 passive kin harderner I see 89.3% kinetic and 80% thermal resistance on my Hawk :)
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Thales Archon
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Posted - 2006.01.03 10:33:00 -
[9]
It's definitely misleading about the "3%" and "5%" bit. I thought the same thing, when I purchased my Ferox, and figured that each level of Battlecruiser would get me 5% stronger resistances. I was planning and plotting for an invulnerable Ferox.
The modules are working correctly. However, as the previous poster stated, the maximum you will get (with level 5 in shield compensation) is around 43%. An active hardener is still better (when turned on, heh), but of course, it uses cap.
It won't take long to train the compensation skills to level 3 each. Beyond that is probably a waste of time, since the gain is minimal.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.01.03 10:43:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Gariuys on 03/01/2006 10:43:02
 Originally by: Thales Archon
It's definitely misleading about the "3%" and "5%" bit. I thought the same thing, when I purchased my Ferox, and figured that each level of Battlecruiser would get me 5% stronger resistances. I was planning and plotting for an invulnerable Ferox.
The modules are working correctly. However, as the previous poster stated, the maximum you will get (with level 5 in shield compensation) is around 43%. An active hardener is still better (when turned on, heh), but of course, it uses cap.
It won't take long to train the compensation skills to level 3 each. Beyond that is probably a waste of time, since the gain is minimal.
And the little "invunerable" thing should have pointed you to the detail that that isn't how it works. Since invunerable in a PvP centred MMOG is not just extremely unlikely, it's completely impossible.
Depends on how much other usefull things you got left, but it's a good final step of specialisation if you use passive hardners normally and/or got access to the best faction passives.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Stephen HB
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Posted - 2006.01.03 12:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gariuys
Edited by: Gariuys on 03/01/2006 10:43:02
Originally by: Thales Archon
It's definitely misleading about the "3%" and "5%" bit. I thought the same thing, when I purchased my Ferox, and figured that each level of Battlecruiser would get me 5% stronger resistances. I was planning and plotting for an invulnerable Ferox.
The modules are working correctly. However, as the previous poster stated, the maximum you will get (with level 5 in shield compensation) is around 43%. An active hardener is still better (when turned on, heh), but of course, it uses cap.
It won't take long to train the compensation skills to level 3 each. Beyond that is probably a waste of time, since the gain is minimal.
And the little "invunerable" thing should have pointed you to the detail that that isn't how it works. Since invunerable in a PvP centred MMOG is not just extremely unlikely, it's completely impossible.
Depends on how much other usefull things you got left, but it's a good final step of specialisation if you use passive hardners normally and/or got access to the best faction passives.
The new skills are quite fun for Assault class ships (AF/HAC), their naturally high resists mean that holes can quite easily be plugged with passive modules. A T2 energised plating with relevant skill at V will give 47% or so, almost at active levels.
Once I have all the armour skills trained to IV, my Retribution will have a 70-87% tank using T2 energised thermal and adaptive plates. I realise the thrust of this thread is about shields, but armour is my area of experience.
-- Originally by: Nyphur
The irony is astounding. The sheer level of raw irony here is enough to iron my clothes for a year.
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Lorette
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Posted - 2006.01.03 15:13:00 -
[12]
Its great for passive, but if you use an active tank its an extreme waste of time.
I wont mind have a 46% passive hardner (37.5x1.25) at all, im to lazy to turn on an active  .
However the boost to invuln fields makes them pretty much the best thing to use now (if you can fit 2 or more)
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Summersnow
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Posted - 2006.01.03 16:08:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Summersnow on 03/01/2006 16:11:52
For armor tanking -
true sansha energizes run around 10-20 mil and start at 40%. ( 48% at level 4 )
There another set ( corpi maybe ) that start at 44.5% for somewhat more then 10-20 mil. ( 53.4% at level 4 )
At level 5 you basically get active hardner %'s with no cap drain and lower fitting costs.
Well worth the time to train.
For shield tanking -
there are mods out there with higher base resists that get more out the passive bonus.
Train EM & thermal to 4, toss on passive's and then fill out with invuln fields.
Cyclone is one sick beast with the added mid & new skills.
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2006.01.03 17:49:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ante
My understanding is that the new resistance with the skills at level 5 will be 37.5%*1.25 = 46.875%. I can't confirm whether the skills are working or not but I doubt you'd get more resistance with a passive hardener than an active, even with skills.
Your right that is how it works for both shields and armor.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Gralatus
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Posted - 2006.01.03 21:01:00 -
[15]
As some have pointed out, these skills are targeted at the frig/cruiser pilots.
Active hardners use more cap then a frig can handle and more then a cruiser can comfortable use long term. Therefore the passive modules w/skills will give you similiar results to actives without the cap drain for smaller ships.
If you fly nothing other then BS, then these skills aren't worth training imho.
gral
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Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2006.01.04 00:59:00 -
[16]
It seems people are still all over these skills even though simple math shows they're worthless. I'm not gonna do it all over again, but with all the four relevant skills trained to lvl 5, your average assault frigate is going to get a whopping 40-80 more effective hitpoints (depending which one it is and if it's plated or not), translating to, say, two extra hits from an enemy frigate *at most*.
Stay away from all four of them until ccp makes them worth your training time. Might just as well train, say, medium autocannon specialization or interceptors to lvl 5 as that will give you more bonus for less time.
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Zwick
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Posted - 2006.01.04 04:49:00 -
[17]
There are definate uses for the passive shield skills and although I rarely armor tank, there seems to be alot of uses for the armor skills.
Granted most of the uses are in ships designed to run continously (ie mostly pve, not pvp) or smaller ships with very tight fitting and cap.
Just because you do not have a use for them does not make them useless.
That being said the gains and uses are fairly marginal, and it is quite likely that there are better skills for most players to train.
Zwick
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Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2006.01.04 10:17:00 -
[18]
I'm very open to suggestions.
Care to show me a situation where they come in useful?
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Kelgen Thann
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Posted - 2006.01.04 16:52:00 -
[19]
Quote:
However the boost to invuln fields makes them pretty much the best thing to use now (if you can fit 2 or more)
THe skills give nothing to an invuln field when activated. Invuln fields for shield tanks are consdiered active hardners. Therefore, they recieve nothing when turned on from the skills. This is unfortunate, but the fact. Only when yoru invuln field is off will you get 3% bonus, which really sucks, because who flies with active hardners off deserves to die.
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Nybro
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Posted - 2006.01.06 13:59:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Nybro on 06/01/2006 13:59:42
To Shayla
base restist : 30%
passive resist without skills: 37.5% total: 56.25% (a)
passive resist with skill at 5: 46.875% total: 62,8125% (b)
say you repair 20Hp/sec
(a) is tanking 45.72Hp/sec
(b) is tanking 53.78Hp/sec
so (b) is tanking 17.6% more then (a) for the same ammount of cap, cpu & pg need.
I hope this shows you why it is a usefull skill?
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