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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Crasniya
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
140
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Posted - 2013.08.28 16:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, after Incarna, as we all know, CCP had to resort itself, and it lead to effectively the death of WiS. We had one expansion after Incarna that added to WiS, which was the additional merc quarters. Since then, nothing. Before the riots and all, CCP was gung ho on treating WiS as a whole 'nother game, indicating it would receive a LARGE portion of the development effort. I am not asking for that.
I think about 15% of every expansion should be WiS. (A good expansion balance in my book would be like 40% major feature revision for the expansion (i.e. Retribution = bounties, Odyssey = exploration), 20% quality of life enhancements, 15% balancing, 15% Walking in Stations improvements, 10% DUST/Valkyrie integration work.)
There's a lot of potential that's been abandoned. The game is in much better shape than it was during Incarna, and the reasons for doing Walking in Stations now is so much greater than it was then. I think the idea of a common area that DUST mercs and EVE capsuleers could mingle on a station would add volumes to the feel of game integration. Take that, and add in a couple years, EVE Valkyrie pilots being able to enter that common area from a first-person virtual reality perspective... and you've just changed the ball game.
Team Avatar was created, and then Team Avatar was disassembled, with no outward progress. CCP has nailed the idea of widespread iteration in the last three expansions. WiS needs to see that iteration. Many of the assets already exist. The bar from the PlayStation Home area would make for a fantastic basic common area. Three games can potentially benefit from this one project.
Reasoning has been given in the past that it was hard to find meaningful gameplay uses for WiS, but I don't think that's necessarily important. EVE has often gone from players creating their own gameplay, and then CCP later supporting it. If we open up the area, let the players come up with something to do with it.
A point has been made about the amount of effort required being too much to count as a minor step, but I feel minor steps could be taken. While I think between the existing assets/design from PS Home, we have the makings already of a good common area, a first small step, could be allowing one guest to visit your Captain's Quarters. Something as simple as a right-click option in the station occupants list to visit their quarters, along with a accept/reject dialog for the hosting player, akin to a start conversation dialog. (Of course, entering someone's quarters should create a private chat of occupants automatically anyways, so this would make sense to be a near identical dialog.) |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises
Ad-Astra
47
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Posted - 2013.08.28 21:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd like to see more walking in stations content, open the door, ect.
After the ship balancing and art passes are finished though. |
Crasniya
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
141
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Posted - 2013.08.28 21:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:I'd like to see more walking in stations content, open the door, ect.
After the ship balancing and art passes are finished though.
Realistically, it should be possible to coincide these. I would doubt anyone working on Walking in Stations has expertise with regards to ship balancing and vice versa. I definitely want the graphics V3 upgrade finished, but that's almost done, art-wise. And some of the initial improvements to WiS could be done without art. (Aforementioned "visit other person's quarters button", for example.) |
Horus V
The Destined
Drunken Hyena Association
32
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Posted - 2013.08.29 02:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP I think its time.
V |
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
110
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Posted - 2013.08.29 14:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
No.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2184
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 20:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Crasniya wrote:Reasoning has been given in the past that it was hard to find meaningful gameplay uses for WiS, but I don't think that's necessarily important. EVE has often gone from players creating their own gameplay, and then CCP later supporting it. If we open up the area, let the players come up with something to do with it.
You're wrong, and missing the important part about player driven content: In order for the players to create their own gameplay there need to be the tools in place to make this possible. Putting a player, or two players, or 8 or 100 players in a room together with their avatars doesn't achieve anything unless there is something for them to do in there, and parading up and down in their monocles and Aurumpants throwing o7s and drinking pretend space beer in a pretend space bar doesn't count as 'something to do'.
Meaningful gameplay uses, which tie into and interact with the wider Eve universe, are absolutely key to getting anything of value out of the whole Incarna mess.
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Crasniya
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
148
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Posted - 2013.08.29 20:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Second Life disagrees with you.
I'd argue that I see a significant amount, in other MMOs, of players hanging around in city areas chatting, doing business, managing spreadsheets, etc. Now, you can indeed sit in your Captain's Quarters and do all that, or spin your ship, and do all that. But the feel is very different. Captain's Quarters and your ship hangar make you feel like you are in an isolated bubble, even if there's tons of other people in the station.
As others have pointed out in other discussion threads about improving EVE, seeing more ships in space has a drastic impact. You want to see "Oh, look, there are other people about." A feeling you cannot get in a station. Make it so you can see people moving about. Throw a stupid dance emote in, and you've made people ridiculously happy. Normal people, anyways.
If you want, you can even go so far as to give yourself a bit of a short-range intel, in allowing people to look out the window on the undock. |
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.08.29 21:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Crasniya wrote:Second Life disagrees with you.
I'd argue that I see a significant amount, in other MMOs, of players hanging around in city areas chatting, doing business, managing spreadsheets, etc. Now, you can indeed sit in your Captain's Quarters and do all that, or spin your ship, and do all that. But the feel is very different. Captain's Quarters and your ship hangar make you feel like you are in an isolated bubble, even if there's tons of other people in the station.
As others have pointed out in other discussion threads about improving EVE, seeing more ships in space has a drastic impact. You want to see "Oh, look, there are other people about." A feeling you cannot get in a station. Make it so you can see people moving about. Throw a stupid dance emote in, and you've made people ridiculously happy. Normal people, anyways.
If you want, you can even go so far as to give yourself a bit of a short-range intel, in allowing people to look out the window on the undock.
I second this sentiment.
All that really needs to be in place to make the space useful is a few interactive tools. Integrate character trading, or contracts. Throw in a card game (dare I suggest, Danger Game??) The ability to wander/stand around in a station might eventually have the same appeal as ship spinning (which I spend at least 10% of my log in time doing.) There is also the potential to lease/rent large conference rooms for your corp/alliance (with/in the same way as hangars are currently.)
The potential extends beyond social interaction though:
The prospect of customizing Captains Quarters could lead to an interesting side-economy. Rare furniture items, or interactive objects (arcade games) would be interesting.
The detail differences in the various interiors could potentially do a lot to help with immersion. Slaves being bartered for in Amarr space, Tribal ceremonies in Matari regions, a quasi-combination of Amarr architecture and Minmatar trappings in Ammatar space... it would make it worth going to a part of space you've never once docked in just to see what it's all about inside... |
Crasniya
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
148
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'd spent Aurum to change the stuff in my Captain's Quarters. If it was cool stuff. Though that's a decent art workload.
Ravasta, I definitely see mini-games serving a purpose. We already know many players go play other games while in the hangar. Or ship spin, which is practically a mini-game in itself. (Imagine if EVE ever has Achievements. Congratulations! You just spun for the 100,000th time!)
I wonder what mini-games could be integrated with low development effort. Slay already exists, and would just need to be ported from PlayStation Home. The hacking mini-game is neat, and I wonder if it could be repurposed as a two-player in-station mini-game as well. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
3134
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 22:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
I must admit... I am not entirely sure where my dislike for the proposal comes from.
Logically...
- it doesn't really hurt to have it.
- it *may* attract people who are interested in that sort of thing into EVE (however they will, in all likelihood, leave once they realize that the UI is nowhere near as polished as Second Life or WoW and there is very little functionality to play around with... all because *CCP*)
Plus...
- as long as it doesn't take "functionality" or too much development away from in-space stuff and doesn't force spaceship-centric people to join... most people will just grudgingly accept it.
- what some (intelligent) people are concerned about is that WiS will create a "second tier" of gameplay that allows people to isolate themselves from the rest of the game without any ability for anyone to "get them" without also "joining in."
A good example would be the Industrialist to PvPer dynamic. Neither side necessarily NEEDS the other one to ply their trade... but either one can easily manipulate and "get at" the other one within their respective specialties without having to be the other. And there is no sure fire way for either side to a kid the other.
A problem I see with your proposal is that DUST and EVE can never be linked in the way you envision. Unless DUST is ported to the PC, they both use completely radically different physics engines.
And now for my personal opinion: I still don't see the point in it.
What possible gameplay value could sitting at a virtual bar have over slurping down actual shots over comms while doing something "productive?"
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
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Crasniya
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
149
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Posted - 2013.08.30 01:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shah, I have a couple comments:
- It's a definite thing that development effort needs to remain small. CCP went too far for Incarna. However, by taking small bits out of the EVE, DUST, and Valkyrie teams, they can create a compelling cohesive product across all three games without impacting any one game too hard.
- The next couple points can be addressed easily. As capsuleers are vulnerable when not all capsuled up, we should assume that first-person combat will not be available in a shared space between games. This means that you still have to undock to do... most of any of the games. It also means it's easy to have them in the same space despite differing engines. Port the graphics assets into each engine. Each game is just sending positional and descriptional data between so that each one can render movement properly. Also, I figure eventually, DUST will someday be using the same Carbon-based engine EVE is. It's just absolutely impossible to run that on a PS3. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
3134
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Posted - 2013.08.30 03:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Crasniya wrote:As capsuleers are vulnerable when not all capsuled up, we should assume that first-person combat will not be available in a shared space between games.
Which means that walking in stations will be completely safe (outside of tinkering with the market) and lack the risk that the rest of EVE has to contend with outside of the station. The only way this would be balanced is if the people in station could not affect the rest of EVE. Which means either...
- instancing WiS and creating a "second economy" (making WiS effectively a game-within-a-game).
- taking away the ability for people walking in station to do anything other than... well... walk around.
The first option doesn't sit well with me (goes against the mantra of a "single EVE universe")
The second option makes me question why development time should even be spent on WiS.
Crasniya wrote:It also means it's easy to have them in the same space despite differing engines. Port the graphics assets into each engine. Each game is just sending positional and descriptional data between so that each one can render movement properly.
I'm very sorry... but I laughed REALLY hard at that.
I'm no computer programmer... but I spent enough time playing around with code to know that it is nowhere near this simple.
Games may seem the same and have the same results on the surface... but game engines generate, "see," and process information differently depending both on how they have been written and which programming language it has been written in.
To have two different engines communicate they have to be...
- compatible: usually possible when the languages and programming styles are related to one another.
- an adapter is created: Wine for Apple is a good example of this. However such adapters usually have issues with stability and require extra attention whenever an update on one platform (or both) comes up.
Basically... what you are saying is this; "TF2 and Battlefield 3 players can both easily join the same server and play with/against each other. It's just a simple matter of graphics and hitboxes. Nevermind that they calculate damage differently... or the aiming mechanics are different... etc."
Crasniya wrote:Also, I figure eventually, DUST will someday be using the same Carbon-based engine EVE is. It's just absolutely impossible to run that on a PS3.
Maybe. I would like to see that. But I wouldn't hold by breath for the next year or two (remember, we're talking about CCP here).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Crasniya
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
150
|
Posted - 2013.08.30 07:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
You're completely safe in stations now too. I think station content should be interesting, and develop over time, but in no way a replacement for space travel. I could see missions that involved a station-side component, provided that MOST of the mission was in space.
It is that simple, if you aren't talking about combat. All you have is animations and movement. They don't even have to be perfect carbon copy in appearance, as long as the space is the same scale, and the people moving within it look roughly the same. As a game programmer, yes it's possible. It does have challenges, sure, but it's the sort of challenge CCP is good at. Insane ideas like putting two games in the same server.
And I don't expect to see DUST running on Carbon's graphics engine for at least three or four years. |
Andracin
Sickology
219
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Posted - 2013.08.31 10:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
I will fully support WiS when CCP ensures that I can assasinate other people's avatars or clear the jita station traders clustered around the market kiosk with a smartbomb suicide vest. Until then it is a funny little sidenote that could, IMO be totally deleted. Captain's Quarters is dumb, I only enter it when I play drunk and miss the undock button. There is no reason to enter it so I can sit on my sofa....I'll go sit in the cold tritanium of my cargo hold and count my corpse collection.... |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2188
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Posted - 2013.08.31 22:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Crasniya wrote:Second Life disagrees with you.
Second Life already exists, and has a decade head-start on CCP in terms of avatar-based content. What you're saying here is 'CCP, please spend our subscription money on a watered-down clone of Second Life rather than spending it on developing new features for the game we actually play'.
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa
Stark Enterprises
2499
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Posted - 2013.09.03 17:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
I want my spaceboat dancing girls robbing gentlemen in my establishments at gun point when they can't be asked to undock!
+10 interwebz
Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
238
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Posted - 2013.09.04 11:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
There is zero chance that CCP will deploy this content before Star Citizen does, CCP is going to sit tight and count their initial player losses when citizen goes live next year. They will let citizen lead the way while stemming what losses they can and look for areas what fans hate and design their products around that.
Would you rather cross a mine field first or follow in some one's foot steps? |
Doris Dents
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
199
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Posted - 2013.09.07 14:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
They pissed away years on WiS and look what we got. You think another 18 months of putting spaceships development on ice and we might get a second room? Maybe even get to do dance emotes and see another avatar without your graphics card melting down?
The engine is a horrible system hog and would likely need a major work to run acceptably with any worthwhile content, it's not worth sacrificing what little spaceships content we do get for fluff.
WiS was only ever a testbed for the World of Darkness engine and that game seems to have been cancelled or at least put very much on the back burner so don't expect much progress on space barbie. |
Crasniya
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
155
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Posted - 2013.09.09 20:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Modern graphics cards have no problem working with WiS. And I'm not asking for putting spaceship development on hold.
If by "horrible system hog" you mean "competitive with other modern games", then yes it is. |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2204
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Posted - 2013.09.09 21:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote: when citizen goes live next year.
lawl
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
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Crasniya
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
157
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Posted - 2013.09.09 22:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Star Citizen is so pretty, but there's no way it becomes a playable game before 2015. And with giving players pre-alpha access... I get the impression we've signed up for a DUST-esque development cycle. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
516
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Posted - 2013.09.09 22:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
Yes, some work on WiS, please...I've only been waiting years for that door to open. Incarna is the most unfinished feature of the game because it's the only one they cancelled half way in.
Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
Elysia Hunter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2013.09.12 23:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'm a no.
1. The more people hanging in stations, lounging in stations, what have you.. in stations Is less people in space. Shifting kids in the sandbox from the money maker EVE online to "Big Brother" EVE, which has not been as widely or universally well received as I'm sure CCP would have wanted.
2. Anything that detracts from EVE with the current level of development staff is diversity that appears, at a glance to be unable to be afforded, financially or in focus. A few good patches, and rebalance is nice, relative stability are nice, lets have them keep it that way.
You want to walk? Adopt a dog, have some kids, find a park.
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid
281
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Posted - 2013.09.15 00:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
If it had been implemented properly with real content that tied into the game in space and with a graphics engine that didn't potentially slow cook graphics cards it might have worked. As it is now the best thing that could happen is its removal asap because all it does is remind us of what could have been a really interesting addition to the game.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
Crasniya
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
159
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Posted - 2013.09.15 00:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Samillian wrote:If it had been implemented properly with real content that tied into the game in space and with a graphics engine that didn't potentially slow cook graphics cards it might have worked. As it is now the best thing that could happen is its removal asap because all it does is remind us of what could have been a really interesting addition to the game.
Get a graphics card that isn't an embarrassment to PC gamers everywhere, and it works great. With a three year old budget card, you can run everything in Incarna on top settings.
It needs to be added to, not removed. |
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