Well, that is unless you don't want to be able to basically ignore every single npc warp disrupting you that could happen.

why making the marauders slower? even a nidhoggur is faster then a paladin or golem

they should keep theyr actual mobility, could be even better...

current VG fleets are 2 logi not 3, (it is even possible to do vgs with just 1 logi )and the range is such that extra projection will not be enough to make the massive dps of pirate ships any less than a fleet of marauders without logies.

That is a non issue. Extreme range on guns, and the ability to MOVE to lower angular is how you best blood raiders.


The only rats the bastion module EWAR immunity truly helps against are Pithi Jammers. You seriously have to nerf your fit to get a semblance of a work around.

The ability to MOVE helps turret gunners hit their targets more effectively than any other module or boosting service.

Why does everyone want the maurauders to ou-tank and out-damage the pirate versions? if the maurauders does less damage that is fine. it can tank a hell of a lot better. and while that may not help for lvl4 missions, it expands the usage of a maurauder into areas it couldn't go before. More wormhole sites, lvl 5's, and according to ytterbium it can even tank a vangaurd solo. If the changes come out exactly as proposed, I will definitely be using one.

Maurauders do things Pirate BS can't do and Pirate BS do things marauder can't do. It works out just fine.

I'm not syaing to do the vangaurd solo I was just pointing out that the bastion now does the job of 2-3 logistics. A very sel-reliant ship in my opinion. The point of that example was to show it's potential to do solo work where you would normally need assitance from logi.

and not sure if i read your post right but the bastion is ewar immune. so there is no jamming (neuting im not so sure)

Thats the point where I wanted you to get... on theory it's all cool and maybe @ alliance tournament.

but lets look at real eve pvp situations now, you see super expensive pirate and marauder BS ships fighting alot ?
I dont.

we all can blablabla about specialization, generalization what the **** ever we want but when you look at PVP aspect of game - no one uses expensive pirate or marauder bs-es.

it's just pointless

Hey people,

We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. WeGÇÖll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

That means:

• Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
• Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus

We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

Thanks for your time.

Exactly. Can you say, "20k Alpha Arty Vargur"?

I feel this way. I never understood why a ship that takes less training time to pilot is better than a ship that takes more training time to pilot.

Uhh, you do realize the very definition of a Marauder is to rove the land pillaging in search of loot, right?

limiting by role is what bastion iterations are doing, this means fitting creativity flies out the window defeating a very large portion of what this game's about. if i spend 800-1bn isk on a hull i want it to do more than the t1 hulls do and better - that means it needs to have ability inside several different roles so i can pick and chose the role i want to fit for.

even dreads can do this - and as a side, dreads only function because they have colossal damage gains and millions of base ehp
for dealing with capital targets when entering siege - the local reps are never a factor for them, in siege you kill them all first or are killed trying - too much damage to tank without RR.

- marauders don't have this advantage and so bastion becomes an even sillier idea, given the competition for these hulls are skirmish ships that hit just as hard as you, and at the same ranges - the last thing you want is to try and sit still for a meaningless 10-20km extra range. it's far more effective to use tier 3 battle cruisers.

the MJD also can't defend you against these hulls, because it doesn't break lock, I'll MJD to a new spot only to still find myself in weapons range and still under just as much fire when i land as when i left, with my Low ehp this means an instant death, and with mobility nerfs I have little hope of effectively escaping, against t1 battleships this problem gets worse, they can MJD after me too.


so to this end, given that nothing being added now will actually help make the marauders better at anything, I'm all in support for ideas that don't alter what already is negatively, and add new functionality to what's already there for us to play with.


I support the fitting proposals, PG/CPU etc, but not the high slot addition.
the dual module/scripted ideas and the module only effects ideas are the two key kings of the ballpark at the moment, and these should be looked into.

I oppose altering hull bonuses, there's no need or reason to
- if you have to or feel obsessed with the thought of altering hull bonuses do so on a temporary basis through bastion activation.

I oppose making the module a requirement for the ship
- for the same reasons i despise having to siege dreads to make them better than battleships, the module doesn't make the ship useful the ship makes the module useful, this game isn't orientated around ships but fittings FOR ships. the ship functions on its own, and if i want to get this cool effect or use this strategy i fit this module configuration to do it.

- a blops can fight without its jump portal, a carrier can fight without triage, a rubicon marauder will be garbage w/o bastion and even with it, and a dread is near pointless without siege.

ships are a blank slate not a defined template for the fittings to go on in pre defined order, if the ship doesn't work without the module you've built for it you have failed to design your ship properly and need to do it again - this is where you're heading at the moment, be warned.

Scissor-Hands off from Machariel and Cynabal you space punks ! We're know exactly where this changes going.
Stop stupid nerfs for good ships and improve others. People want T2 BS like Vargur to be better than pirate BS(logic) , but thats doesn't mean nerf them, damn it.
Using Marauders for mission running is a stupid idea, because missions is outdated crap. Instead they must be better at Incursions and PVP.

Exactly what the game needs is new and interesting ways to accomplish things. AC Vargur / Torp Golem get the least projection from the bastion, though. This may need looked at just to keep things level.

What "might" they bring back? Un-nerfing the speed?

I've run hundreds of vanguard sites with my 7 accounts, two logi toons, two leadership toons (which the command ships changes have let me combine into 1), two dps toons and one utility toon that could be logi, fast transport for ore OR dps depending on the site.

The new command ship / mindlinks and new marauders will let me field MORE dps with the same logi. Is that trolling? Over 100 billion isk to date... is that stupid?

Um. Now I think you're just being silly. Keep your on-grid command ship with your logi, which will be giving their links to your dedicated web hulls and will have plentiful reps since the paladins and kronoses won't need their help.

Here's a clue. DO NOT MJD in a vanguard site. For bigger incursion sites, DO NOT BASTION. Mmkay?

True, especially the strange mass increase of the vargur which negates the +5 m/s speed by far.

Right now my vargur would end up at 842 DPS from guns and 105 dps from two bouncer.

[Vargur, Tech2 copy 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Shield Booster II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
100MN Afterburner II
Large Micro Jump Drive

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
[empty high slot]

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Ionic Field Projector II

Warrior II x5
Bouncer II x2



The MJD would force me to fight between 120 and 60 km. and i would end up with 450 (120km) - 800 dps (60km). BUT after flying with it, it seems necessary to unstack all guns and use them one by one. And even with maxed skills and implants the 1400 sometimes miss a BS which flies straight at you.

Even Vindicator does not break 1000dps with long range guns (Machariel too, for that matter). And your point is?

I have a question....

If arty suck so bad, then why is the tornado the best tier 3 bc?
I mean, any time someone mentions the word gank, the tornado is the ship mentioned to perform it with.
If they're good at ganks, expecially suicide ganks, the. I would think arty would be perfect for missions where you're essentially trying to use a little volleys as possible to down the target.

Edit...

Hell, if you're talking about ganking, people normally judge gank ability by the number of tornados it would take to pull it off.
No other ship or weapon system is used like this, and last time I checked, they used arty for this.

800 AC and 1400 Arties can both be very useful in PVE. In an ship with no range bonus, the AC will be more dps out to about 30km or so, where Arties start doing equal dps or more. Falloff helps Arties too, and you will get a wider damage range with more falloff. Optimal is better, but then the Bastion Module ads Optimal and Falloff. When you can use Barrage, you will end up doing comparable dps to Arties at longer ranges than all the other ammo types

I think most of you are confusing effective with boring.

in most pve scenarios your rats are moving toward you at zero transversal where tracking isn't an issue. It is more boring, but I use both, and the Arties make just as much or more isk / hour.

Ah, okay. I checked with tech 2 magstabs instead of faction.

My point, beside being corrected, is that marauders are not supposed to have bigger dps than pirate battleships. Ask CCP if you have any doubts.

it would be nice if the ships changed shapes more... i was kind of expecting them to shift radically into... looking like a COMPLETELY different ship, like the sails retracting on the vargur and becoming more of a sleek thing, or the paladin going vertical or what have you. The vargur, so far, seems pretty disappointing, but whatever. I mean they arent terrible, but the negatives of the bastion mechanics make the prettyness not worth it

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkNC5KM1CqPkdDJueEc1cmxWWENvaHhTakhyMmViOUE&single=true&gid=0&output=html

I added isk/h colomn. Now a note on this number: The time I took as mission time was from warping INTO the mission and warping OUT OF the mission. This means I was IN WARP so bastion had already finished cycling if I was using it. The time getting to and from the mission would be the same for every ship you would use to run lv4 missions so you can directly compare this with TQ data if you want to be it a pirate BS or a marauder.

I have not ONCE gotten stuck on a gate because of bastion timer. Not a single time. This has to do with the fact that I cancel bastion when it is no longer needed or because of the new warp changes in Rubicon. The bastion timer impacting mission time was brought up earlier in this thread, after thorough testing it is a non-factor.

Also as you can see salvage/loot has a big impact on isk per hour and is the nature of marauders. Some missions are not worth the time to loot/salvage (drones).

I do find it interesting that no one has bothered to comment on my data. I guess when the data doesn't agree with you opinion it's easier to just ignore it. Ah well, I need to run AE again to see if I can do it better with the depo. I want to get scarlet again. So far that mission gave me insane numbers but I didn't record it in as much detail.

Yea theres definitely some translation problems here. You're using the wrong words for stuff. It's not gizmo, I think you meant gimmick though it isn't a gimmick for the marauder since that is usually the primary way it gets isk, through loot and salvage. not taking that into account would be like not taking LP into account for mission blitzers.

Understand this very clearly: Marauders are not, and never will be Pirate BS. They do not work the same, they do not run missions the same, they do not make isk the same way.

The only thing really is if they make roughly the same amount of isk per hour and with bastion + salvage + MJD they make more than I can currently on TQ.

Maybe we can nerf the Paladin as well then everyone will be unhappy with Marauders...

Good job, Arthur! You've shown that you know how to completely remove the context from what someone is saying by only quoting the part of it that's to your strategic advantage and leaving the next part (with all the meaning in it) unquoted. You totally ignored the next paragraph, didn't you? Here, I'll post it for you again:



I even added some formatting to help you see it.

Also, I've been flying a Vargur around on SiSi lately and I'm not sure what all the fuss is about regarding mobility. They don't seem all that slow compared to a Tempest.